Time for the truth 7

Sophrosyne said:

You know I still haven't seen a good retort to why those who keep the commandment not to hate their brother have to be commanded not to murder him instead.

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One would think it is fine to hate your brother as long as you don't kill him if your standard is the 10 commandments.

Elder 111 said:

It is texts like this that are misrepresented. Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Does it say that that there is no law? NO! It says we are not justified by doing the things of the law. So if I do not steal, lie, or murder, I am still not Justified.
That does not mean there is no law for me as demonstrated in verse 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

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No, one is justified only by the blood of Jesus Christ.

How is Romans 3:28 being mishandled by the pro grace camp? Is Paul misrepresenting something?

It plainly says there are no doers of the law in many references of the Bible. Do they need to be posted so they can be officially ignored again?

OK we certainly acknowledge the law exists. We don't acknowledge the law having jurisdiction as NC believers.

Paul says not under the law. Romans 6:14, 15; Gal 5:18.

Paul says it s foolish to return to the law. Gal 3:1-3
Paul says we are delivered from the law. Rom 7:6

Paul says to throw out the law. Gal 4:30

Why are you still insisting we have to follow the law for salvation?

And real specific to your question Paul says


For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Yes there is more.

bugkiller

Elder 111 said:

Originally Posted by Elder 111

Originally Posted by Elder 111

So the Christian who does not steal would not be observing the command that say thou shall not steal. What would he be doing?
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Does that mean that the christian who by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit acknowledges the fact that he should not steal because God's holy ten commandment law does not have or will never have faith in Jesus? Does the Ten Commandment law negate faith?
​

So with Christ in us we keep the law that says thou shall not steal. Correct?

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No. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat this. The answer is still no.

bugkiller

Sophrosyne said:

Nothing at all, an evil person could be seen as "keeping" all 10 and nobody would know it but God.

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I wouldn't call my neighbor evil (pagan or ungodly, yes). He is an upright moral person in all the aspects our friends accuse us of. They accuse us so often I just imagine they might be guilty. Guilty people behave in that manner even from the bully pulpit they stand behind.

bugkiller

bugkiller said:

I wouldn't call my neighbor evil (pagan or ungodly, yes). He is an upright moral person in all the aspects our friends accuse us of. They accuse us so often I just imagine they might be guilty. Guilty people behave in that manner even from the bully pulpit they stand behind.

bugkiller

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I think if you go with God's standards that equate all of us as evil until faith in Jesus saves us from our nature.

Elder 111 said:

Does that mean that the christian who by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit acknowledges the fact that he should not steal because God's holy ten commandment law does not have or will never have faith in Jesus? Does the Ten Commandment law negate faith?

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Go look up Galatians 3:12 in its context: "...the law is not of faith...

Elder 111 said:

So with Christ in us we keep the law that says thou shall not steal. Correct?

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No.
God concluded all disobedient with no exceptions.

Elder 111 said:

It is texts like this that are misrepresented. Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Does it say that that there is no law? NO! It says we are not justified by doing the things of the law. So if I do not steal, lie, or murder, I am still not Justified.
That does not mean there is no law for me as demonstrated in verse 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

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You remain as wrong as when pointed out in many posts you can't answer.

It has already been established that you don't believe Romans 3:31 refers to the Law's record 430 years before the Ten Commandments existed. This passage quotes Genesis 15:6 to identify the Law established by the inspired author - just as the same author quotes the Law we have been delivered from just a few chapters following this, by quoting Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21 in Romans 7.

Elder 111 said:

NO! So we can only conclude that with Christ we will keep the very law of the ten commandments. For that law says we should not lie, kill, steal, covet or have any other God etc. If Christ will not lead us to do these things then He leads us to keep them.

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Indeed "HE" will, and much more. What was mans "must do" under the Old, is Gods "I Will" "I Will" "I Will" under the New. (Ezekiel 36)

Elder 111 said:

What disobedience? Thre is no law to disobey according to popular opinion. .

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Non sequitur. This doesn't even show cognitive awareness of the conversation presented in the sequential posts.

VictorC said:

You remain as wrong as when pointed out in many posts you can't answer.

It has already been established that you don't believe Romans 3:31 refers to the Law's record 430 years before the Ten Commandments existed. This passage quotes Genesis 15:6 to identify the Law established by the inspired author - just as the same author quotes the Law we have been delivered from just a few chapters following this, by quoting Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21 in Romans 7.

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Elder 111 said:

Gen 15:6 is not a law, it is an observation.

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You are wrong. Still wrong. That seems the only response that satisfies your attention span.

Explaining for others: Torah includes everything from Genesis through Deuteronomy. This is why this epistle says we establish the Law and quotes the Genesis record, affirming that it taught us that Abraham believed God and this imputed righteousness to him. It is consistent with the narrative opening with this statement in Romans 3:21: "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe." The author quotes directly from the Law. Why this surprises someone who thinks of himself as an elder is beyond the scope of this forum.

listed said:

Please read the ALL READ thread by a mod in this sub forum.

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If I have offended thee, please forgive me.

(Jesus speaking) Matthew chapter 11 verse 30


30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Acts chapter 15

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

[FONT=&quot]John does not "delete the Bible and start over" as I am sure we all agree.

So then if we listen "to John" we find this --

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]It is John[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that reminds us "the scriptures cannot be broken" John 10:34

It is John that reminds us that even BEFORE the Cross - the commandments of God - of scripture that cannot be broken are in harmony with the Commandments of Christ - John 14:15. "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Coming directly from Ex 20:7 "love Me and Keep my commandments"

It is John the reminds us that Christ spoke nothing of his own - but rather all that He spoke is nothing but the Word of God - the Commandment of God - nothing about Christ setting aside what God said.

John 14: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]John 12:
49 "" For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

It is John the reminds us that "Sin is transgression of the LAW" 1John 3:4.

And James reminds us that to break the Law is to "sin" and James quotes the law giving several examples of it[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot].

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Originally Posted by bugkiller[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What are the commandments of Jesus? Are they the 10 Cs? If so how do you arrive at this from the Bible of course?

[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]When Jesus is asked "what commandments?" Jesus gives examples --
Matt 19:17-19
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Jesus leaves out "do not covet" because he will make that point in his following statement - and so we see his focus on "Love our neighbor as yourself" - but he leaves out the commandments in this list related to "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 - because in not loving his neighbor the man does not Love God.



Is it any wonder that even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholarship (not just D.L. Moody) agree that the Ten Commandments are included in the moral law of God binding on the saints from Eden to this very day??[/FONT]

10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10


(The Ten Commandments are not about circumcising Gentiles)

Proverbs 9:10 (LXX): "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the council of saints is understanding: for to know the law is the character of a sound mind."

BobRyan said:

[FONT=&quot]John does not "delete the Bible and start over" as I am sure we all agree.

So then if we listen "to John" we find this --

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]It is John[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that reminds us "the scriptures cannot be broken" John 10:34

It is John that reminds us that even BEFORE the Cross - the commandments of God - of scripture that cannot be broken are in harmony with the Commandments of Christ - John 14:15. "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Coming directly from Ex 20:7 "love Me and Keep my commandments"

It is John the reminds us that Christ spoke nothing of his own - but rather all that He spoke is nothing but the Word of God - the Commandment of God - nothing about Christ setting aside what God said.

John 14: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]John 12:
49 "" For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

It is John the reminds us that "Sin is transgression of the LAW" 1John 3:4.

And James reminds us that to break the Law is to "sin" and James quotes the law giving several examples of it[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot].

[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]When Jesus is asked "what commandments?" Jesus gives examples --
Matt 19:17-19
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Jesus leaves out "do not covet" because he will make that point in his following statement - and so we see his focus on "Love our neighbor as yourself" - but he leaves out the commandments in this list related to "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 - because in not loving his neighbor the man does not Love God.



Is it any wonder that even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholarship (not just D.L. Moody) agree that the Ten Commandments are included in the moral law of God binding on the saints from Eden to this very day??[/FONT]

10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10


(The Ten Commandments are not about circumcising Gentiles)

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Here we have another one of your posts that asserts we should abide by the commandments of God, synthesized with the soteriology Jesus affirmed as the central tenet of Judaism. This comes as a result of dissecting Scripture into sound bites devoid of its narrative depicting the dispensation and recipients contradictory commandments are quoted from. I remind you of the effort CF staff members have made in reminding members that your soteriology via the old covenant Law is against the rules.

However, it is your post that asserts Listed's dependency on "your own pro-sunday scholarship" - but you didn't quote his dependency on pro-Sunday scholarship. Please do so now, since your post depends on that prerequisite.

I remember now that you were asked months ago to show us what "pro-sunday scholarship" is/was. What is this "pro-Sunday" dependency, and why should others adopt their views in deference to Scripture?

*EDIT* Reviewing other threads on this sub-forum suggests that you're importing posts from another thread in an effort to circumvent moderator actions that have closed your other thread. Your post has no relation with this thread, does it?

The fact that majority of your own pro-sunday scholarship affirms the Bible fact that God's Ten Commandments - are the moral law of God binding for the saints from Eden until this very day - may have something to do with the way those Commandments are strongly affirmed by the NT writers --


[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Cor 6 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


As we all can see from that - Paul does not teach - cheap grace. Those sins above – are in fact “transgression of the Law” as John states 1 John 3:4[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When it comes to Paul – and his affirmation of the Law of God.

"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

What law? The Law that condemns all mankind as sinners -

Rom 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


That same law - same chapter

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Rom 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


Rom 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Matt 19 -- before the cross. The Commandments of Christ -
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother; and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]James 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]You shall love your neighbor as yourself[/FONT][FONT=&quot],”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you are doing well.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For He who said, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Do not commit adultery[/FONT][FONT=&quot],”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] also said, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Do not commit murder[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eph 6:2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Honor your father and mother[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (which is the first commandment with a promise)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]