Time for the truth 7

bugkiller · Feb 4, 2015

VictorC said:
That was already tried - the new thread used to circumvent moderator action to close the 'time for the truth 4' thread was closed the same day, as soon as the staff spotted it. That precedent is already established.

The moderators try their best to keep their hands off of discussion. When they intervene, it is because nothing else will restore the civility they're commissioned to maintain. Accountability to content is another entity altogether, and moderating that in the content of posts may or may not go beyond their commission. It takes much more time and effort, which is in little supply.

Would really love to participate in the discussion here on this, but my better judgment says not to. So I won't. I will say I'm very disappointed in the moderation.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Feb 4, 2015

Elder 111 said:
Where does it say in Romans 2 that the gentiles did not keep the Sabbath?

Where does it say the Gentiles kept the Sabbath? If the Gentiles kept the Sabbath there would be no issue for either of us or listed and others. Paul wouldn't address this issue later in chapter 14 and other letters if the Gentiles did. Why should any poster here be required to disprove/refute a position you can't or won't prove (back up with evidence). Silence doesn't work in your favor here. Paul doesn't say nor imply the Gentiles observed/kept the law.

Paul says very clearly ...things contained in the law. This is a long way from keeping the law.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Feb 4, 2015

Elder 111 said:
Who are under the law? Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19
According to Paul, all the world is under the law!

No Paul doesn't say the world is under the law in v 19. Paul does say and all the world may become guilty before God.

Paul does say we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; in v 9. Sin is not the law.

I Tim 1: 8-10 is being ignored.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Christians are the righteous in this passage. Taking your view Christians are wicked (general term covering the list).

bugkiller

Wordkeeper · Feb 5, 2015

Elder 111 said:
Where does it say in Romans 2 that the gentiles did not keep the Sabbath?

Only the Jews had the advantage of possessing the oracles, being proclaimers of the Kingdom of Heaven, a preview of which was the Sabbath, the reversing of the curse on Adam to procure food by the sweat of his brow.

Two faults that Christ had against the Jewish leaders:

1. Non proclamation of the oracles, the future payment by God of the debt
incurred by mankind through the providing of His Lamb.
2. The non observance of law

Non proclamation of the future payment by God of the debt incurred by mankind through the providing of His Lamb.

John 4:22"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Here Jesus tells a Samaritan woman why Jews are not just different from others, they are the means by which God will save the world from the debt incurred by Adam and his descendants, through providing of a Lamb. But he may as well have been talking to the Jews themselves, because they were not using the oracles God gave them to enlighten the world about how He was going to pay off the debt of sin as depicted in the sacrifices, but rather using it as a way to show the world how superior they were. They thought that every work of the law they performed led to paying off the debt. The fundamental mistake they made was of interpreting seed as a plural, rather than as a singular:

Galatians 3:19Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

So to summarise, Jewish believers were not being a blessing to the world by fulfilling the law (they couldn't!) because that job was reserved for Christ. Their job with respect to performing sacrifices was to depict God’s provision of the Lamb, as prophesied by Abraham, when he took Isaac to the top of Mount Moriah (Temple Mount).

Parallel to Paul’s criticism:
Romans 10:1Brothers, my heart's desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved. 2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn't subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The non observance of law

Acts 3:26When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

Christ criticised the Jewish leaders for following tithing of mint and cummin but not observing justice, mercy and faithfulness. The Good Samaritan, a foreigner, helped the man who had been mugged, following his conscience which told him to love God and those made in his image, but God’s People, who had a written law, not just conscience, crossed to the other side of the road just to avoid helping the injured man!

I repeat, observing Sabbath was to reveal to the world how God’s provision of a Lamb would reverse the curse of living by the sweat of the brow that was placed on Adam. It did not bless the world, as Jews claim it does, in the doctrine of TIKKUN OLAM, repairing the world, through doing works of the Law, MITZVAH.

The Mitzvah of Tikun Olam

Quote
We can conclude two things from this Torah passage. First, God's covenant with the Jewish people called us to impact the entire world. “Through you all the nations of the earth will be blessed.” We are not supposed to be a ghetto people. To fulfill the covenant, we must exercise influence on humanity. Second, Abraham's mission, the mission of the Jewish people, the super-mitzvah and raison d'etre of our people, is “keeping the way of God” through teaching righteousness and justice.
Tikun Olam occurs not only at the beginning of Jewish history, but also at the consummation of human history. The task of the Jewish people in history is to perfect the world by eliminating injustice, disease, poverty, starvation, human strife. I know this not from Tikun magazine, but from Maimonides. At the end of his great legal work, Mishneh Torah, he discusses the beautiful dream of the messianic era:
At that time (the Messianic Era) there will be no starvation; there will
be no hunger, no war; nor will there be any jealousy, nor any strife. Human
good will pervade [the earth]. (Laws of Kings 12:5)

Today if a person observes Sabbath, he is stating that God’s rest has not been given,that it is still a future event, that those who abide in Christ do not have rest from their own labors.

They are also saying that the debt remains, that Christ’s blood was not the sufficient repayment for the debt of sin, thus trampling His blood underfoot.

How should we then live now that the debt HAS been repaid?
Like the captives who have been freed, the lame who have been healed, like the blind who can see. In other words not like people who are handicapped by the weakness of the flesh but like people who have received empowerment through the giving of the Holy Spirit, like people who are alive, have eternal life, the life which we live in the age to come of which we now have a foretaste.Through Christ. By faith.

Elder 111 · Feb 5, 2015

bugkiller said:
Where does it say the Gentiles kept the Sabbath? If the Gentiles kept the Sabbath there would be no issue for either of us or listed and others. Paul wouldn't address this issue later in chapter 14 and other letters if the Gentiles did. Why should any poster here be required to disprove/refute a position you can't or won't prove (back up with evidence). Silence doesn't work in your favor here. Paul doesn't say nor imply the Gentiles observed/kept the law.

Paul says very clearly ...things contained in the law. This is a long way from keeping the law.

bugkiller

The point is that it was stated that they did not keep the Sabbath. That was not said so it is not right to made that claim of Romans 2.

Elder 111 · Feb 5, 2015

bugkiller said:
No Paul doesn't say the world is under the law in v 19. Paul does say and all the world may become guilty before God.

Paul does say we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; in v 9. Sin is not the law.

I Tim 1: 8-10 is being ignored.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Christians are the righteous in this passage. Taking your view Christians are wicked (general term covering the list).

bugkiller

So the Christian who does not steal would not be observing the command that say thou shall not steal. What would he be doing?

Elder 111 · Feb 5, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
Only the Jews had the advantage of possessing the oracles, being proclaimers of the Kingdom of Heaven, a preview of which was the Sabbath, the reversing of the curse on Adam to procure food by the sweat of his brow.

Two faults that Christ had against the Jewish leaders:

1. Non proclamation of the oracles, the future payment by God of the debt
incurred by mankind through the providing of His Lamb.
2. The non observance of law

Non proclamation of the future payment by God of the debt incurred by mankind through the providing of His Lamb.

John 4:22"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Here Jesus tells a Samaritan woman why Jews are not just different from others, they are the means by which God will save the world from the debt incurred by Adam and his descendants, through providing of a Lamb. But he may as well have been talking to the Jews themselves, because they were not using the oracles God gave them to enlighten the world about how He was going to pay off the debt of sin as depicted in the sacrifices, but rather using it as a way to show the world how superior they were. They thought that every work of the law they performed led to paying off the debt. The fundamental mistake they made was of interpreting seed as a plural, rather than as a singular:

Galatians 3:19Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

So to summarise, Jewish believers were not being a blessing to the world by fulfilling the law (they couldn't!) because that job was reserved for Christ. Their job with respect to performing sacrifices was to depict Gods provision of the Lamb, as prophesied by Abraham, when he took Isaac to the top of Mount Moriah (Temple Mount).

Parallel to Pauls criticism:
Romans 10:1Brothers, my heart's desire and my prayer to God is for Israel, that they may be saved. 2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they didn't subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The non observance of law

Acts 3:26When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

Christ criticised the Jewish leaders for following tithing of mint and cummin but not observing justice, mercy and faithfulness. The Good Samaritan, a foreigner, helped the man who had been mugged, following his conscience which told him to love God and those made in his image, but Gods People, who had a written law, not just conscience, crossed to the other side of the road just to avoid helping the injured man!

I repeat, observing Sabbath was to reveal to the world how Gods provision of a Lamb would reverse the curse of living by the sweat of the brow that was placed on Adam. It did not bless the world, as Jews claim it does, in the doctrine of TIKKUN OLAM, repairing the world, through doing works of the Law, MITZVAH.

The Mitzvah of Tikun Olam

Quote
We can conclude two things from this Torah passage. First, God's covenant with the Jewish people called us to impact the entire world. Through you all the nations of the earth will be blessed. We are not supposed to be a ghetto people. To fulfill the covenant, we must exercise influence on humanity. Second, Abraham's mission, the mission of the Jewish people, the super-mitzvah and raison d'etre of our people, is keeping the way of God through teaching righteousness and justice.
Tikun Olam occurs not only at the beginning of Jewish history, but also at the consummation of human history. The task of the Jewish people in history is to perfect the world by eliminating injustice, disease, poverty, starvation, human strife. I know this not from Tikun magazine, but from Maimonides. At the end of his great legal work, Mishneh Torah, he discusses the beautiful dream of the messianic era:
At that time (the Messianic Era) there will be no starvation; there will
be no hunger, no war; nor will there be any jealousy, nor any strife. Human
good will pervade [the earth]. (Laws of Kings 12:5)

Today if a person observes Sabbath, he is stating that Gods rest has not been given,that it is still a future event, that those who abide in Christ do not have rest from their own labors.

They are also saying that the debt remains, that Christs blood was not the sufficient repayment for the debt of sin, thus trampling His blood underfoot.

How should we then live now that the debt HAS been repaid?
Like the captives who have been freed, the lame who have been healed, like the blind who can see. In other words not like people who are handicapped by the weakness of the flesh but like people who have received empowerment through the giving of the Holy Spirit, like people who are alive, have eternal life, the life which we live in the age to come of which we now have a foretaste.Through Christ. By faith.

You find all of this in Romans 2?

Steeno7 · Feb 5, 2015

Elder 111 said:
So the Christian who does not steal would not be observing the command that say thou shall not steal. What would he be doing?

Enjoying a life lived by faith in Jesus Christ.

Wordkeeper · Feb 5, 2015

Elder 111 said:
You find all of this in Romans 2?

Romans 2:14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

a law unto yourself
a person who does things differently and ignores the usual rules

eg,The male characters in her novels are usually attractive, powerful, and dangerous – a law unto themselves.
See also: law, unto

a law unto - Idioms by The Free Dictionary

A paraphrase of the text would go like this:

14 When the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these Gentiles, even when not having the usual law, behave exactly as if they DO have the law:

15 proving they have the work of the law written in their hearts, confirmed by the fact that their conscience is affected, and they feel guilty or vindicated by their wrong or right actions.

It’s very clear that Paul is talking about how Gentiles were following the works of the law, requirements of the law, and not depicting the covenant of the law, the promise of the Kingdom of heaven, God’s everyday Sabbath rest in Christ, being ushered in through the providing of the Lamb by God, prophesied by Abraham:

Genesis 22:7Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, "My father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." And he said, "Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" 8Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together.

See, the depiction of that Sabbath rest was the job of the Jews, through observing the one day Sabbath, IOW, covenantly, the Jews ministered to the Gentiles, were light to the darkness, revealing what Adam had done and what God promised to do to save, and who would benefit:

Romans 2:17But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,21you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?

VictorC · Feb 5, 2015

Elder 111 said:
The point is that it was stated that they did not keep the Sabbath. That was not said so it is not right to made that claim of Romans 2.

You're still contradicting yourself -and Scripture- and done nothing to rectify this. So, you remain as wrong as when you started.

VictorC · Feb 5, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
Today if a person observes Sabbath, he is stating that Gods rest has not been given...

This is the bottom line. This in simplest terms is a leading reason why I'm not a Sabbatarian anymore.

Sophrosyne · Feb 5, 2015

VictorC said:
This is the bottom line. This in simplest terms is a leading reason why I'm not a Sabbatarian anymore.

I've never even considered being a Sabbath keeper, as I found that I left Christianity due to feeling never good enough (condemnation) and over the last 2 decades have studied enough to realize that there is no condemnation in Jesus.... NONE.... including being condemned for NOT keeping the Sabbath.

Elder 111 · Feb 5, 2015

Originally Posted by Elder 111

So the Christian who does not steal would not be observing the command that say thou shall not steal. What would he be doing?

Steeno7 said:
Enjoying a life lived by faith in Jesus Christ.

Does that mean that the christian who by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit acknowledges the fact that he should not steal because God's holy ten commandment law does not have or will never have faith in Jesus? Does the Ten Commandment law negate faith?

Steeno7 · Feb 5, 2015

Elder 111 said:
Originally Posted by Elder 111

So the Christian who does not steal would not be observing the command that say thou shall not steal. What would he be doing?

Does that mean that the christian who by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit acknowledges the fact that he should not steal because God's holy ten commandment law does not have or will never have faith in Jesus? Does the Ten Commandment law negate faith?

What it means is that Christ is living in us and through us.....and He doesn't steal.

Elder 111 · Feb 5, 2015

It is texts like this that are misrepresented. Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Does it say that that there is no law? NO! It says we are not justified by doing the things of the law. So if I do not steal, lie, or murder, I am still not Justified.
That does not mean there is no law for me as demonstrated in verse 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Elder 111 · Feb 5, 2015

Originally Posted by Elder 111

So the Christian who does not steal would not be observing the command that say thou shall not steal. What would he be doing?

Does that mean that the christian who by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit acknowledges the fact that he should not steal because God's holy ten commandment law does not have or will never have faith in Jesus? Does the Ten Commandment law negate faith?

Steeno7 said:
What it means is that Christ is living in us and through us.....and He doesn't steal.

So with Christ in us we keep the law that says thou shall not steal. Correct?

Steeno7 · Feb 5, 2015

Elder 111 said:
Originally Posted by Elder 111

Originally Posted by Elder 111

So the Christian who does not steal would not be observing the command that say thou shall not steal. What would he be doing?

Does that mean that the christian who by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit acknowledges the fact that he should not steal because God's holy ten commandment law does not have or will never have faith in Jesus? Does the Ten Commandment law negate faith?

So with Christ in us we keep the law that says thou shall not steal. Correct?

Would Christ lead you to steal?

bugkiller · Feb 5, 2015

Elder 111 said:
Originally Posted by Elder 111

So the Christian who does not steal would not be observing the command that say thou shall not steal. What would he be doing?

Does that mean that the christian who by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit acknowledges the fact that he should not steal because God's holy ten commandment law does not have or will never have faith in Jesus? Does the Ten Commandment law negate faith?

I've no idea how one can contest a personal testimony. But then you didn't. You simply tried to put words in another person's mouth. What does "Ten Commandment law" have to do with faith?

bugkiller

Sophrosyne · Feb 5, 2015

You know I still haven't seen a good retort to why those who keep the commandment not to hate their brother have to be commanded not to murder him instead.

Sophrosyne · Feb 5, 2015

bugkiller said:
I What does "Ten Commandment law" have to do with faith?

bugkiller

Nothing at all, an evil person could be seen as "keeping" all 10 and nobody would know it but God.

Time for the truth 7

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