Time for the truth 7

VictorC · Jan 31, 2015

Elder 111 said:
If the God you serve commands that you cast these off then go ahead.

Thanks. Since that's what God requires of us, I'm glad you're graceful enough you're going to offer your "permission" for me to obey God.
However...
Your quote from the Mosaic covenant indicates you're not willing to obey God, and your response doesn't even acknowledge the content of my post.
So it begs the question...
Why aren't you willing to acknowledge the commandments of God we as Christians have been given?

Every indication is that you're reverted to a modified form of Judaism each time you reject the tenets of Christianity.

VictorC · Jan 31, 2015

Elder 111 said:
Is it your contention that God removed the law because no one could have kept it perfectly?
My contention is that the law remains but that Jesus died so that His perfect keeping of the law could be imputed for us who failed to keep it perfectly. 1 John 2: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Permit me to ask a silly question: Why do you make bold claims, followed by Biblical quotes that refute your own claims and heap condemnation on no one other than yourself?

VictorC · Jan 31, 2015

Elder 111 said:
The context here makes no reference to the Ten commandments but to the ceremonial laws, which had Sabbaths. This is pertaining to the sacrifices... <non sequitur following this snipped>

That's what the Sabbath requires, as you have seen from the Law itself. The weekly Sabbath, to be specific, which the nation charged with keeping (which doesn't include Barbados or any other Gentile nation) had to sacrifice two lambs in addition to the two lambs for the evening/morning oblations.
You already saw this before you even wrote this latest post.

bugkiller · Jan 31, 2015

Hi guys. Oh yes and I see a gal or two. Been quite a while since I've been here. Have I missed anything of importance? Dang my old buddies seem to have disappeared for the most part. I do see a couple I know.

Bugkiller

Gotta find my swatter someone gifted me. Kinda became a trade mark. Well what do ya know it is in my siggy. Well sumthin happened to it when I edited.

VictorC · Jan 31, 2015

bugkiller said:
Hi guys. Oh yes and I see a gal or two. Been quite a while since I've been here. Have I missed anything of importance? Dang my old buddies seem to have disappeared for the most part. I do see a couple I know.

Bugkiller

Gotta find my swatter someone gifted me. Kinda became a trade mark. Well what do ya know it is in my siggy.

Welcome back to the zoo!
It hasn't changed all that much...

bugkiller · Jan 31, 2015

VictorC said:
Welcome back to the zoo!
It hasn't changed all that much...

Thanks

I'll look around some more.

bugkiller

Sophrosyne · Jan 31, 2015

bugkiller said:
Hi guys. Oh yes and I see a gal or two. Been quite a while since I've been here. Have I missed anything of importance? Dang my old buddies seem to have disappeared for the most part. I do see a couple I know.

Bugkiller

Gotta find my swatter someone gifted me. Kinda became a trade mark. Well what do ya know it is in my siggy. Well sumthin happened to it when I edited.

plenty of bugs in the doctrinal software of the legalists here to swat still

Strong in Him · Feb 1, 2015

Elder 111 said:
Is it your contention that God removed the law because no one could have kept it perfectly?

No. The Jews still have their law, and they still keep it because they don't accept Jesus, who fulfilled it. Jesus said that he had NOT come to abolish the law.
But I'm not a Jew.

Elder 111 said:
My contention is that the law remains but that Jesus died so that His perfect keeping of the law could be imputed for us who failed to keep it perfectly.

Jesus came to save people from sin (Matt 1:21, 26:28;Mark 10:45;Luke 19:10; John 1:29).
Jesus fulfilled the Jewish law for the Jew. I am not a Jew, was not brought up as a Jew with Jewish traditions, and have never been under Jewish law.

Elder 111 said:
1 John 2: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Exactly. Jesus died for our sins.

Elder 111 said:
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

What did JESUS command us to do?
Was it not to love one another as he loves us? He also told us that it is God's will that we come to Jesus, believe in him and have eternal life. And if we want to do the work which GOD requires, then we believe in Jesus.

He did not say, "come to me, receive forgiveness and eternal life and then you will be in a good place to be able to keep the law - the Jewish law which I have fulfilled."

Wordkeeper · Feb 1, 2015

To the two opposing views of the status of Law:

Those who say the Law has jurisdiction over Christians.

Those who say the Law has no jurisdiction over Christians.

How does the Law relate to the promise to Abraham that his Seed would be a blessing to the world?

Elder 111 · Feb 1, 2015

Sophrosyne said:
I'm sorry but you aren't refuting the FACT Paul says they do NOT have the Law which pretty much destroys your argument that Gentiles must have it.

They did it. Fact!

Wordkeeper · Feb 1, 2015

Originally Posted by Sophrosyne
I'm sorry but you aren't refuting the FACT Paul says they do NOT have the Law which pretty much destroys your argument that Gentiles must have it.

Originally Posted by Elder 111
They did it. Fact!

Paul's statement is nuanced. Just as the writer in 1 John uses the word sin in different ways:

1:8“If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

Here he is discussing the natural drives, the weakness of the flesh that still exists in believers.

3:9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Here he is discussing the condition of those who believe that Christ is the Savior who has given gifts to men through fulfilling the law and is faithfully waiting for the manifestation of those gifts.

So Paul also uses the word law in different ways. Sometimes it means requirements. Sometimes it means the Old Covenant.

When he says Gentiles are without the Law, it means they do not have the formal Covenant of Law.

So Sophrosyne, Paul says the Gentiles do not have the Covenant.

So Elder 111, Paul says they have the law written on their hearts, the ability to know right from wrong.

Which is what the Book of Romans is all about. Covenant and conscience are both God given, equal and serve the same purpose: both hold men accountable.
__________________

Sophrosyne · Feb 1, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
To the two opposing views of the status of Law:

Those who say the Law has jurisdiction over Christians.

Those who say the Law has no jurisdiction over Christians.

How does the Law relate to the promise to Abraham that his Seed would be a blessing to the world?

Non sequitor. The fact that Israel was chosen to be the lineage of the Messiah doesn't obligate one to be an Israeli to be saved. Paul and the other authors don't make such a qualification of salvation. Christians have plenty of "commandments" given throughout the New Testament some even are identical to parts of the Law but that doesn't obligate them to the Law itself.

Sophrosyne · Feb 1, 2015

Elder 111 said:
They did it. Fact!

Fiction.... no author of the New Testament ever testified that those not of Israel were bound to the Law.

Sophrosyne · Feb 1, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
Paul's statement is nuanced. Just as the writer in 1 John uses the word sin in different ways:

1:8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Here he is discussing the natural drives, the weakness of the flesh that still exists in believers.

3:9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Here he is discussing the condition of those who believe that Christ is the Savior who has given gifts to men through fulfilling the law and is faithfully waiting for the manifestation of those gifts.

So Paul also uses the word law in different ways. Sometimes it means requirements. Sometimes it means the Old Covenant.

When he says Gentiles are without the Law, it means they do not have the formal Covenant of Law.

So Sophrosyne, Paul says the Gentiles do not have the Covenant.

So Elder 111, Paul says they have the law written on their hearts, the ability to know right from wrong.

Which is what the Book of Romans is all about. Covenant and conscience are both God given, equal and serve the same purpose: both hold men accountable.
__________________

One who does not have the Old Covenant is not bound to it formally or UNformally I don't know why you posted this nonsense all it does is to pretty much make the Law irrelevant to non Israelis because most Christians agree we keep our set of rules written on the heart and are held accountable for loving our neighbor that is not the argument in the end you wish to make. If you aren't arguing for law compliance then you shouldn't be quoting my posts and agreeing with the Law promoters here.

Wordkeeper · Feb 1, 2015

Sophrosyne said:
Non sequitor. The fact that Israel was chosen to be the lineage of the Messiah doesn't obligate one to be an Israeli to be saved. Paul and the other authors don't make such a qualification of salvation. Christians have plenty of "commandments" given throughout the New Testament some even are identical to parts of the Law but that doesn't obligate them to the Law itself.

Put it this way: What is the Good News? Is it not connected to the promise to Abraham?

Sophrosyne said:
One who does not have the Old Covenant is not bound to it formally or UNformally I don't know why you posted this nonsense all it does is to pretty much make the Law irrelevant to non Israelis because most Christians agree we keep our set of rules written on the heart and are held accountable for loving our neighbor that is not the argument in the end you wish to make. If you aren't arguing for law compliance then you shouldn't be quoting my posts and agreeing with the Law promoters here.

Paul says that the blessings of Deut 28 accrue to those who follow their conscience!

listed · Feb 1, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
Paul's statement is nuanced. Just as the writer in 1 John uses the word sin in different ways:

1:8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Here he is discussing the natural drives, the weakness of the flesh that still exists in believers.

3:9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Here he is discussing the condition of those who believe that Christ is the Savior who has given gifts to men through fulfilling the law and is faithfully waiting for the manifestation of those gifts.

So Paul also uses the word law in different ways. Sometimes it means requirements. Sometimes it means the Old Covenant.

When he says Gentiles are without the Law, it means they do not have the formal Covenant of Law.

So Sophrosyne, Paul says the Gentiles do not have the Covenant.

So Elder 111, Paul says they have the law written on their hearts, the ability to know right from wrong.

Which is what the Book of Romans is all about. Covenant and conscience are both God given, equal and serve the same purpose: both hold men accountable.
__________________

Sorry but Elder does not say this. Elder says flat out the covenant issued at Sinai is what is written on our hearts against the Scripture.

listed · Feb 1, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
Put it this way: What is the Good News? Is it not connected to the promise to Abraham?

Paul says that the blessings of Deut 28 accrue to those who follow their conscience!

Paul does not teach such a thing.

Paul says "But now we are delivered from the law" in Romans 7. Paul also tells us to throw out the law in Galatians 4. Those who wish to keep some of the law are trying to keep the parts of the woman they like. I could get real descriptive here, but hope folks will understand what I said. Paul did not say carve up the woman and toss what you do not want in the trash. Paul clearly says toss out the whole woman (law).

Sophrosyne · Feb 1, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
Put it this way: What is the Good News? Is it not connected to the promise to Abraham?

Which promise given to Abraham? There were many given that were totally unrelated to "the Good News".

Paul says that the blessings of Deut 28 accrue to those who follow their conscience!

Typically if one loves their neighbor then their conscience is in line with God.

I'm getting a bit bored with you as I'm finding you are somewhat on a fence when it comes to the Law vs Grace trying to play both sides at once leaves you with none of the advantages of either.

listed · Feb 1, 2015

Sophrosyne said:
Which promise given to Abraham? There were many given that were totally unrelated to "the Good News".

Typically if one loves their neighbor then their conscience is in line with God.

I'm getting a bit bored with you as I'm finding you are somewhat on a fence when it comes to the Law vs Grace trying to play both sides at once leaves you with none of the advantages of either.

Eh the mixed gospel keeps the forum running. Getting colder here and got to do some chores before the game.

Sophrosyne · Feb 1, 2015

listed said:
Eh the mixed gospel keeps the forum running. Getting colder here and got to do some chores before the game.

Yup.... ironic that the pro Law group want a buffet style of Law & Grace here so they can reject parts of the Law they find distasteful and accept parts of Grace that allows them to... reject those parts of the Law. The tactics they use to try and convince people to be bound to the Law are rejected by themselves when they refuse to keep the Law properly.

To put it simply either keeping the Law becomes a full time job, or a venture into hypocrisy.

Time for the truth 7

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