Time For Switching Sides On Mueller

[mark46]

The ones who say Trump colluded with the Russians will probably strap their tinfoil hats on tighter.

Perhaps, or perhaps they will simply wait until Stone is convicted.

 

[chevyontheriver]

But, no matter how many investigations there are, it still stands that anyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

That is old-fashioned thinking. Now one is determined to be guilty, and investigated until everyone agrees.

 

[mark46]

That is old-fashioned thinking. Now one is determined to be guilty, and investigated until everyone agrees.

utter nonsense

 

[chevyontheriver]

utter nonsense

No. I think that is exactly the new way. With the House of Representatives in Democratic control we will see several new investigations of Trump until his term ends. And the Republicans will provide payback some day. The presumption of innocence is old-fashioned.

 

[John 1720]

Good advice.

And those of us who have been around for a while recall the same speculation around prior Special Counsel investigations....Iran Contral, Clintons-Whitewater (I was too young to remember Watergate).

Well I was around for all 4. Nixon both signed my honorable discharge papers after my service and I think he accomplished quite a bit of good for our country. However the press really did hate him almost as much as Trump. There is no doubt he broke the law by trying to protect his friends. I guess I can think of worse things than to die on that hill but I did agree that coverup is nonetheless obstruction of justice. I will also say the stigma of him resigning deeply hurt the nation and it took about 7 years for us to recover from that debacle. I cannot emphasize how important it is to get it right!
So, I can say that it was true the media was also filled with speculation in all 4 cases. However, the magnitude of speculation with this current investigation has gone far deeper than the others. Back then, they at least prefaced their commentary by stating their conjectures were mere speculation. This time around you have ex-CIA directors stating without reservation that the President committed treason with Russia and he is only one of many. So, this time around has been a much wilder ride - despite the details of the investigation being kept close to the vest, minimizing the leaks. People are polarized to the narrative they want to believe and so it's hard for me to believe people will remain objective about the report. I'm sure the DOJ will get it out as soon as they can - then I will make up my mind.

 

[cow451]

No. I think that is exactly the new way. With the House of Representatives in Democratic control we will see several new investigations of Trump until his term ends. And the Republicans will provide payback some day. The presumption of innocence is old-fashioned.

Frankly that presumption, though laudable, is rarely evident in real life. Nothing has changed.

 

[mark46]

I apologize.

I thought that you were responding to com7fy8 who was discussing LEGAL proceedings (guilty in a court of law I think he said). Congress is NOT dealing with legal proceedings, although they will (as the Republicans still do, e.g. Cohen's testimony) refer actions they don't like to the Justice Department.

Obviously, an opposition party in control of the House or the Senate will investigate the president and his cabinet for years; that is called "oversight". The Republicans did this with Benghazi. The Democrats are now doing this with regard to Trump and his cabinet. Since there was no meaningful oversight for 2 years, and Trump's team has given a lot to investigate/oversee, the House is having a party, not really knowing where to start. This is likely to continue until the end of Trump's term, as it did with Obama's term. That is indeed what oversight has become in Congress.

No. I think that is exactly the new way. With the House of Representatives in Democratic control we will see several new investigations of Trump until his term ends. And the Republicans will provide payback some day. The presumption of innocence is old-fashioned.

 

[Belk]

No. I think that is exactly the new way. With the House of Representatives in Democratic control we will see several new investigations of Trump until his term ends. And the Republicans will provide payback some day. The presumption of innocence is old-fashioned.

The presumption of innocence is a bedrock of our court system, not our legislative system.

 

[mark kennedy]

I just can't wait to see the report, it should be a real page turner.

 

[childeye 2]

I'm not sure what you mean.

"Collusion" in this case means conspiracy or illegal cooperation.

If you mean to suggest that Mueller proved that members of the campaign had communications with the Russians, about legal actions taken by the Russians, that is true, and certainly not illegal. Stone is the only one who seems to have illegally cooperating with the Russians.

The bottom line is that there can be no "legal" collusion.

I respectfully disagree. Sometimes laws have not yet been written to address certain avenues of malfeasance that were unforeseen. Is it possible to legally steal? Such loopholes do exist.

 

[mark46]

I respectfully disagree. Sometimes laws have not yet been written to address certain avenues of malfeasance that were unforeseen. Is it possible to legally steal? Such loopholes do exist.

I'm just telling you what the word means.

If you are suggesting that there are actions that should be illegal, but are not, I certainly agree.

In any case, it is Congress who can define the grounds for impeachment. The Constitution simply states "high crimes and misdemeanors". The definition is up to House.

 

[mark46]

I just can't wait to see the report, it should be a real page turner.

that seems to be unlikely

 

[mark kennedy]

that seems to be unlikely

I don't know, it has peaked my curiosity.

 

[childeye 2]

I'm just telling you what the word means.

I agree with the intent of the definition.

If you are suggesting that there are actions that should be illegal, but are not, I certainly agree.

I don't like the idea that a Trump tower being built in Russia was in the works and that the financing was to be provided by a Russian bank under U.S. sanctions according to the letter of intent.

The situation where Russia and Trump would share similar interests in having sanctions removed, the fact that Trump lied about it, and the fact that Russia actively worked to use it's considerable cyber capabilities to covertly campaign on Trumps behalf, is very troubling. It is illegal for a foreign power to influence our elections, yet how can it be stopped when our laws allow people to buy our government?

In any case, it is Congress who can define the grounds for impeachment. The Constitution simply states "high crimes and misdemeanors". The definition is up to House.

This is true, but actually my comfort comes from knowing that God sees it all.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

No one of trump's team is guilty of collusion. There will be no future indictments. There are no sealed indictments. The family is free and clear of any prosecution regarding Russia.
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Perhaps, the REPUBLICANS will now say that, while 2 years has been wasted, that Mueller did a fine job, and that the report and conclusions are valid and serve the cause of justice.

And, DEMOCRATS, when they don't get what they want from Mueller, now switch and attack Mueller for not given them the underlying, incriminating information on the president.

People were arrested, caught in lies. And all kinds of stuff. Of course this investigation wasn't a waist of time.

 

[rjs330]

There is a reason Barr talked in his letter about having Mueller and Rosenstein assist in deciding what can be released. There is significant information in the report.

Mueller uncovered a great deal and indicted quite a few including Manafort, Flynn, Gates, Cohen, Stone and 13 Russians. There are more. see All of Robert Mueller’s indictments and plea deals in the Russia investigation

And because of the investigation, we found out about the hush payments, and the ongoing negotiations for Trump Tower Moscow during his primary campaign, and much more. He may not be recommending indictments simply because there is not enough evidence for conviction despite the strong suggestion it took place. Robert Mueller report will be a gold mine of improprieties. Trump shouldn't celebrate yet.

A Mueller decision to decline any new indictments does not, by itself, mean that Mueller concluded President Donald Trump committed no crimes. In only means that Mueller followed DOJ protocol that prohibits the department from indicting a sitting president.......

Profoundly 'swamp-like' conduct at the least
Given the evidence already breaking the seams of the public domain, it is hard to imagine that Mueller’s report will offer a full exoneration of the president and his campaign. Democrats may be disappointed that Mueller did not indict the likes of Donald Trump Jr. and Jared Kushner, who many consider the closest orbiting co-conspirators to the president. But, given the signs that Mueller’s investigation has been thorough, his report will likely be a treasure trove of evidence that, if not establishing outright crimes, will establish profoundly “swamp-like” conduct by Trump and members of his inner circle.

Perhaps the most significant question Mueller’s report can answer is whether there is evidence that Trump has been compromised by Russia. It may not be a crime to lie to the American public about currying favor with a foreign adversary, to make hundreds of millions of dollars by building Trump Tower Moscow. But it helps explain the president’s siding with Vladimir Putin over U.S. intelligence agencies and his refusal to implement congressionally mandated sanctions against Russia for its election interference.

If Mueller’s report is the gold mine of impropriety I predict it to be, expect Barr to refuse full disclosure and the resulting battle to end up in the Supreme Court.
​

And investigations were handed off to others such as the Southern District of New York. see:
After Mueller: The Ongoing Investigations Surrounding Trump

We need to hear more about what is in the report.

Sounds like a lot of innuendo lacking any real evidence.

 

[mark46]

People were arrested, caught in lies. And all kinds of stuff. Of course this investigation wasn't a waist of time.

No, it wasn't a waste of time. But, having folks testify for 20 hours and catching them in lies is not what it was about.

The investigation was about investigation Russian interference in our election, so that we can be better prepared to defend against their 2020 efforts. No collusion with the Trump campaign was found, with the possible exception of Stone.

Mueller did find the Trump folks guilty of lots things. After all, they are clearly a bunch of crooks.

HOWEVER, the Democrats need to be careful. Trump may come out looking fine. The Russian interference came on Obama's watch, after warnings from the FBI. Obviously, Trump's company and family may be in trouble is NY, but perhaps not enough to win an election, after NO COLLUSION.

 

[Speedwell]

No, it wasn't a waste of time. But, having folks testify for 20 hours and catching them in lies is not what it was about.

The investigation was about investigation Russian interference in our election, so that we can be better prepared to defend against their 2020 efforts. No collusion with the Trump campaign was found, with the possible exception of Stone.

Mueller did find the Trump folks guilty of lots things. After all, they are clearly a bunch of crooks.

HOWEVER, the Democrats need to be careful. Trump may come out looking fine. The Russian interference came on Obama's watch, after warnings from the FBI. Obviously, Trump's company and family may be in trouble is NY, but perhaps not enough to win an election, after NO COLLUSION.

Still, Trump will be forced to admit that when presented with evidence of Russian interference in the election he did nothing to prevent it happening again.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

No, it wasn't a waste of time. But, having folks testify for 20 hours and catching them in lies is not what it was about.

The investigation was about investigation Russian interference in our election, so that we can be better prepared to defend against their 2020 efforts. No collusion with the Trump campaign was found, with the possible exception of Stone.

Mueller did find the Trump folks guilty of lots things. After all, they are clearly a bunch of crooks.

HOWEVER, the Democrats need to be careful. Trump may come out looking fine. The Russian interference came on Obama's watch, after warnings from the FBI. Obviously, Trump's company and family may be in trouble is NY, but perhaps not enough to win an election, after NO COLLUSION.

So, if Stone was involved in collusion. Then their was collusion.

 

[mark46]

If the Russians interfere with our next presidential election, that would be true. I expect that Trump will say that Obama failed to deal with the interference (if he ever admits to it) and that his actions will help prevent it in 2020.
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Of course, it is more likely that Trump will continue to deny that the Russians interfered and blame the intelligence services for their faulty information, and Mueller for his incompetence and bias. However, I would note that his advisers will strongly advise against such an approach.

Still, Trump will be forced to admit that when presented with evidence of Russian interference in the election he did nothing to prevent it happening again.