Time and Again

[dad]

Time starts to be different mere centimeters away! It has been MEASURED! Then it gets MORE different as we go up...more for a building top, yet more for a mountain, and more still for an airplane! More again for a space vehicle! Go ahead and graph it. The line would go up predictably until we get to the furthest man has been in the cage! (Pioneer). If I recall, I think that is something like more than half a light day different!

Now we could try to claim that the reason for the difference is gravity and velocity and etc....but it could be something else. So we can't pick some distance as the place where time starts to be different! How can you possibly tell how time functions out of your range? Even in the closest stars?

That means that if time is not known, distance and all else is not really known either.

""SR predicts a slowdown of 7,200 ns. The net predicted result of SR and GR is that the satellite’s clock should run faster by 38,700 ns a day, and this closely corresponds to what is measured [1].

To compensate for this expected dilation GPS engineers adjust the clock rate on the satellites prior to their launch, slowing them down by a fixed amount of about 38,500 nanoseconds a day, and this solves the time calculation problem [2].

On the face of it, this looks like a good argument in support of both SR and GR. Surprisingly however, it would not make any difference to GPS accuracy whether relativistic effects were considered or not. The reason for this is explained in a separate chapter:"

http://www.alternativephysics.org/bo...periments.htm#[3]

"
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]H & K avoided giving the actual test results in their paper; they gave figures that were radically altered from those results. These altered results gave the impression that they were consistent with the theory. The original test results are reproduced for the first time in this paper; these do not confirm the theory. The corrections made by H & K to the raw data, are shown to be totally unjustified.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]It is also shown that the clocks used were not of sufficient stability to prove anything. The magnitude of the random alterations in performance, during the air transportation, were such as to make any result useless."
Hafele Keating Experiment, relativity time dilation kisérlet


"[/FONT] In 2005, the National Physical Laboratory in the United Kingdom reported their limited replication of this experiment.[18] The NPL experiment differed from the original in that the caesium clocks were sent on a shorter trip (London–Washington D.C. return), but the clocks were more accurate. The reported results are within 4% of the predictions of relativity."[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]
[/FONT]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation


So of course GR and SR would be close. The question is whether they are exact, and known to be the actual and only things that affect the time. That is not known. Could there be any fundamental assumptions that are wrong? Could there be other factors we never really double checked, or thought of? For example, did they check the altimeter in the plane? Was the plane absolutely the same altitude the whole time? If not, maybe that could be a small factor? Etc etc.

If we look at muons, do they not come from up to down? Therefore it would be more straightforward. Yes, there is a time difference. Exactly why I think might be more of an open question, rather than an absolute certainty..

 

[TLK Valentine]

Now we could try to claim that the reason for the difference is gravity and velocity and etc....but it could be something else.

When you have an idea what that something else is, let us know.

 

[Armoured]

I read Timecube once.

 

[Davian]

I read Alice in Wonderland once.

 

[Armoured]

I read Alice in Wonderland once.

Same relation to reality, though AiWL is more entertaining.

 

[dad]

When you have an idea what that something else is, let us know.

What is more important is that it indeed may BE something else. There is no law saying men must now fully comprehend the forces and laws God put in place. This is true particularly of far away space, where no man has ever been, to bravely explore...no not even a capsule.

The amazing fact that IS known, is that time itself is actually different as we move from earth!!! For those somewhat unfamiliar with relativity, and such, we should point out the following. We are not talking about some illusion of a time difference, where maybe some observer seems to see something. We are talking about any clock...a human, a decaying atom, etc..actually being different than the clock closer or further from earth!!!

 

[dad]

I read Timecube once.

On earth?

 

[Strathos]

Relativity and its effects can be accurately described and predicted with Einstein's equations.

 

[dad]

Relativity and its effects can be accurately described and predicted with Einstein's equations.

Not if one thinks 4% is less than really accurate. The results were fudged in the first test, in one instance, and they repeated the experiment in 2005.

"[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]"[/FONT] In 2005, the National Physical Laboratory in the United Kingdom reported their limited replication of this experiment.[18] The NPL experiment differed from the original in that the caesium clocks were sent on a shorter trip (London–Washington D.C. return), but the clocks were more accurate. The reported results are within 4% of the predictions of relativity."[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]
[/FONT]

To claim that is accurate would be crazy. What we can say is that there is a time difference. Yes, relativity also predicted a time difference. The issue is proving that the observed time difference is due to only relativistic effects.

In the case of muons, it seems to me that it is not really a demo of relativity so much as of time difference.

If we talk about deep space, man has no idea if there is any time or if it is the same! That destroys the claim of distances. Time is part of how distance is determined.

 

[Strathos]

I'd say that's pretty accurate. You know there are many factors in experiments that can't always be accounted for. Not to mention that things like GPS satellites are based on the principles of relativity and are constantly used every day.

 

[TLK Valentine]

What is more important is that it indeed may BE something else.

And when you do some work and come up with an idea of what that something else may BE, present it to the public and they'll look over your work.

Until then, you're just making noise.

 

[dad]

I'd say that's pretty accurate. You know there are many factors in experiments that can't always be accounted for. Not to mention that things like GPS satellites are based on the principles of relativity and are constantly used every day.

"SR predicts a slowdown of 7,200 ns. The net predicted result of SR and GR is that the satellite’s clock should run faster by 38,700 ns a day, and this closely corresponds to what is measured [1].

To compensate for this expected dilation GPS engineers adjust the clock rate on the satellites prior to their launch, slowing them down by a fixed amount of about 38,500 nanoseconds a day, and this solves the time calculation problem [2].

On the face of it, this looks like a good argument in support of both SR and GR. Surprisingly however, it would not make any difference to GPS accuracy whether relativistic effects were considered or not. The reason for this is explained in a separate chapter:"

http://www.alternativephysics.org/bo...periments.htm#[3]



What we have is a time difference. That is known, and must be accounted for. What we don't have is any proof it is strictly due to GR/SR.

You should correct your statement "GPS satellites are based on the principles of relativity.." To 'GPS satellites are based on the principles of a TIME DIFFERENCE THAT IS KNOWN, that we believe is due to relativity'!!!!!!

 

[dad]

And when you do some work and come up with an idea of what that something else may BE, present it to the public and they'll look over your work.

Man only has so much ability and knowledge, and must work IN the fishbowl of earth and area. We explain things using that, including time,as best we can. Science doesn't so much as even know what time is! When you do, get back to us, until then, you're just making noise.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Man only has so much ability and knowledge,

Some more than others; most more than you.

and must work IN the fishbowl of earth and area. We explain things using that, including time,as best we can.

"We," dad? You including yourself in that assessment? All of a sudden you know something worth sharing?

Science doesn't so much as even know what time is! When you do, get back to us, until then, you're just making noise.

You truly have nothing, don't you? Not even an original quip? It's getting sad, dad.

 

[dad]

Some more than others; most more than you.

None that can be demonstrated here..now. Funny that.

"We," dad? You including yourself in that assessment? All of a sudden you know something worth sharing?

You kidding?

You truly have nothing, don't you? Not even an original quip? It's getting sad, dad.

Call the perception doctor. That was no quip. It is a simple fact that you do not know what time is. That is news????

 

[TLK Valentine]

None that can be demonstrated here..now. Funny that.

They have something -- you have nothing. That's been demonstrated time and again.

You kidding?

Sadly, I suspect you're not.

Call the perception doctor. That was no quip. It is a simple fact that you do not know what time is. That is news????

Are you just jealous because nobody asks you... ever?

 

[dad]

They have something -- you have nothing. That's been demonstrated time and again.

They have a time difference same as we all have! Nothing more. What the reason is and how time may be far from earth is another matter.

I suspect that it could be that there is a time difference independent of relativity. I wait to see anyone show us that the time differences from the table top level, to mountains, and airplanes and spacecraft must only be due to relativity alone!

What is known..: A time difference exists as one moves from earth in any direction.

What is not known..: How far away that extends and the actual causes with certainty.

If a time difference exists in an airplane for example, what is to say that it is not due to some natural change in time related to distance from earth...rather than gravity and etc?

 

[Strathos]

That website is a quack haven filled with discredited theories...

 

[dad]

That website is a quack haven filled with discredited theories...

Excellent! What did you think astronomy sites were? If I quoted a thought from some site, that is what I defend, not some site. Nor even the reason they may have thought what they did!

The fact is we could get millions of sites showing a time difference exists, and that the experiments were what they were.

Question: If an Airplane or object was just stationary, more or less in the air, do you think we would see the same time difference as when it moves? If a muon traveled sideways rather than up to down, would we see a difference in the time 'dilation'? How can we tell how much relativity actually has to do with the time difference, aside from assumptions? I am not aware of any experiments that checked for that. We may have to simply admit science doesn't know for now. Even if it did, there is the issue of deep space where it sure doesn't!