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Thy will be done in which heaven ?

The Liturgist

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That’s an extremely hypothetical question, and Ronald Reagan wisely observed that he never got into trouble by not answering hypotheticals. So forgive me, but I am not going to answer that now, just as I did not answer when you posed a similiar hypothetical question albeit with the Lord’s Prayer having been hypothetically included in Malachi. This is because these questions are both irrelevant, owing to the simple and obvious fact that the simple fact that the Lord’s Prayer is neither in the Torah nor in the book of the Holy Prophet St. Malachi (and consequently, any points one might derive from my answer to it would be moot), but also literally unanswerable, because there are a million variables, such as where it appeared in the Torah, who said it, to whom it was addressed, what our Lord and the Apostles and Evangelists said about it, how the early church received interpreted it, its role in the liturgy of the Christian church, in antiquity and at present (and also its role in Judaism both before and after the Incarnation would need to be studied), and how later theologians interpreted it.

Rather, in my previous post I took the more practical approach of explaining why your position that the Lord’s Prayer is inapplicable to Gentiles is erroneous, and that answer should be sufficient. And I am prepared to discuss my answer, including any questions or objections, provided that they do not involve hypothetical scenarios of the Lord’s Prayer or other scriptural text being located somewhere in Scripture other than where they are, or revealed by someone other than whoever revealed them (in the case of the Lord’s Prayer that being God Himself in the Flesh), for I maintain that these hypotheticals are devoid both of relevance and objective answerability, for the reasons I set out above.

Furthermore, to avoid derailing our friend @Carl Emerson ‘s thread, where he is raising a truly interesting point concerning divine immutability, I would respectfully suggest you create a new thread and @ tag me in it, or reply to this post in the opening post, by hitting Post Reply here and copy-pasting the text to the new thread. If you need any assistance or want me to start the thread, let me know, and in this manner we can separate what could be a distracting segue (which is as much my fault as anyone’s) from the very interesting discussion posted by my dear friend @Carl Emerson .
 
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The Liturgist

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So I have been reflecting on this, and I have a few thoughts:

  • I don’t think Heaven is eternal, at least in the same sense as God, because in Genesis 1:1 it says “In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth,” and in John 1:1-3, it establishes that it was by the Word of God, who is God, the second person of the Trinity, that all things were made; this some people argue is the reason for the third person statements of what we might assume is the Father, but which could be His Son, the Word (or even the Spirit, but in scripture the Spirit is not reported as having spoken aloud, whereas the Father is, rather the Spirit and the Word are visible, although the appearance of the Spirit is variable whereas the Word, as the Son of God, is spiritually the embodied image of the incorporeal Father*, and the prototypical image of God that we humans are made in the image of), whereas others argue the third person is like the Royal We; this I doubt, because our God usually uses first person language when referring to Himself, and the intimate second person singular when communing to us, for instance “Saul, Saul, why dost Thou persecute me?” In contrast, the Islamic deity always refers to itself in the third person, despite being a Unitarian idol, who is claimed by many Muslims and especially the Druze religion, which is a secretive Islamic Gnostic cult related to the Pythagorean religion, as being devoid of attributes.
  • Further to the previous point, can anything created be eternal in the sense of existing outside of time and being completely immutable like God? It is via Theosis that we are saved from death and acquire immortality or eternity in the world to come. I have to be careful in discussing this by the way, because when I was a child, I developed a terrible fear of either ceasing to exist or existing forever (and no, I had never seen Doctor Who; the fear came to me one night at Disneyland along with a few other existential fears, including a fear that reality was unreal and an inability to comprehend how God came into existence. These I have largely overcome, and my father confessor explained to me my terror of eternity was actually a fear of Hell, which makes sense, and this is a legitimate fear, for I have sinned grievously, however, St. Silouan the Athonite** warns us that we should flee from two terrible and destructive ideas: firstly being that we are saintly, and secondly, that our sins are so great that we are beyond the hope of salvation in Christ.
  • Scripture does say that God will make a new Heaven and a new Earth in the Eschaton, which combined with everything else, suggests that Heaven is temporal.
  • It is also established that Heaven is where our souls repose awaiting the Resurrection, and also some people dwell their bodily, with the Holy Mother of God being assumed after her repose, as commemorated in the Dormition Fast and subsequent feast, also known as the Assumption, on August 15th. And St. Elias the Prophet was taken up while still alive in a Chariot of Fire. And likewise, Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son and Word of God, dwells in Heaven in his resurrected body, having Ascended as the firstfruits of the Resurrection. Thus created beings can be present there, although they have experienced or are experiencing theosis, or are in the case of Jesus Christ fully God and fully Man.
  1. In the case of our adversary the devil, God can completely control him, and if he tried to go where he oughtn’t, whether into the souls of those where the Holy Spirit indwells, or into the abode of the righteous, St. Michael the Archangel will give him a proper whoopin’, as we call it in the Southern United States.
Now, it may sound like I just attempted to torpedo your whole idea, but I promise you this is not the case. On the contrary, I think your core insight is actually entirely correct. However, I think the Holy Spirit Himself ticks all of the boxes of Heaven in your conceptualization: God is unbounded, infinite, exists outside of time, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit puts eternity in the hearts of man and makes diabolical possession impossible.

Also, even if the Holy Spirit, whose omnipresence I would argue could be considered to constitute the Kingdom of God in our midst, does not fully indwell a man, He is still there, and His presence enables us to chose to have faith and be baptized in Christ, and having put on Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit, whose presence prevents demons, evil spirits, from entering, unless we commit apostasy, for example, by dabbling in witchcraft, which had led to a number of demonic possessions (even reading horoscopes I can testify from my individual and professional experience can be extremely dangerous).

With the Holy Spirit indwelling us through Baptism and the Eucharist, we can in turn perform good works as part of our faith, and this process enables Theosis, what John Wesley called Entire Sanctification.

* Eastern Orthodox canon law prohibits depicting the Father in icons, although I have seen uncanonical icons which do depict Him as an old man with grey hair, presumably based on The Holy Prophet St. Isaac’s vision of the Ancient of Days, which Orthodox and most other traditional theologians interpret as a vision of Jesus Christ, for John 1:18 states “No man has seen the Father at any time; the Lord has declared Him.”

** St. Silouan was great Russian Orthodox monk born in 1866, who after leaving the Imperial Russian Army at the age of 27, became a monk and lived in the autonomous Eastern Orthodox monastic community of Mount Athos in Greece, at St. Panteleimon’s Monastery, from 1893 until his repose in 1938, and who was glorified in 1987 by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, which is the official government of Mount Athos, responsible for issuing visas to pilgrims and prospective monks and enforcing the monastic regulations, for instance, the prohibition on women entering the Holy Mountain, which is reserved as the personal garden of the Blessed Virgin Mary. However, they are dependent on Greek police to provide security and enforce these emergency services, and for defense and other things, so their autonomy is not the same as the sovereignty of the Vatican City.
 
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fhansen

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I think the term “heavens” in “God created the heavens and the earth” meant the “upper” regions of the universe in the ancient mind. As it constitutes a higher, unknown area it’s also the abode of God as we must relate everything to physical properties in an attempt to conceive of them. But I like what Pope Emeritus Benedict 16 wrote in one of his books: “God is heaven”. Where He is, heaven is. I think that comes closer to identifying both the location and the nature of the “place”.
 
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Hawkins

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Heaven (singular) refers to God's current dwelling place, where no humans (except for Jesus of course) have set foot on it yet. After the Final Judgment, God's dwelling place may 'merge' with humans' dwelling space, it's the New Heaven and New Earth.
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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Mixing in error with your supposed truth needs to be called out. "as soon as the Peshitta, the widely respected Syriac Bible was completed in the fourth century" is a provably false statement. The Peshitta was NOT completed in the fourth century. It is the actual original language version of the books contained within. They were completed within the first century AD. The Greek translations done shortly after each was written.
 
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The Liturgist

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Forgive me, but we have discussed this previously; even in the extremely unlikely event that Aramaic Primacy is correct, it is a certainty that Peshitta Primacy as advocated by George Lamsa is incorrect, because the Classical Syriac in which it was written did not exist until the late 3rd century, and St. Ephrem writing in the first half of the 4th century quoted from a translation of the four Gospels into Old Syriac known as the Vetus Syra, which like the Vetus Latina, and to a lesser extent the Peshitta itself, follows the rare Western Text Type. Specifically, St. Ephrem quoted from a manuscript later recovered at St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai known as the Codex Sinaiticus Syriacus, not to be confused with the Codex Sinaiticus, which is a complete Bible in the Alexandrian text type written in Koine Greek (where as the Codex Sinaiticus Syriacus is a Palimpsest, a manuscript that was overwritten, which contains only the four Gospels, following the Western text type, in Old Syriac). Furthermore, the Peshitta originally contained only 22 books; the remaining five books of the New Testament were not translated into Classical Syriac until the early sixth century by the Syriac Orthodox Bishop St. Philoxenus of Mabbug.

Thus, while we cannot completely disprove Aramaic Primacy (although Biblical scholarship, whether it is conservative or liberal, and whether it is Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant, has, after years of study, come to regard Aramaic Primacy as extremely doubtful), and while it is true that most of the dialogue in the Gospels, Acts and the Apocalypse would have been spoken in Aramaic (albeit Gallilean and Judaean Aramaic and not any Syriac dialect), and there is a historical record of at least two Aramaic Gospels, the Gospel of the Hebrews, quotations of which are still extant, and which may have been originally written by St. Matthew, and a heterodox Gospel of the Ebionites, with the early church Fathers generally looking favorably on the former and unfavorably on the latter, we can positively exclude Peshitta Primacy, for the reasons given above.

I also wish to assure you that all information I provide is accurate to the best of my knowledge; I do make mistakes, usually due to conflating certain historical details, and the posts I write on CF.com are not proofread or checked to an academic style; instead I rely on the assistance of other learned users to point out mistakes so I can correct them.

In closing, given that we are diverging from the topic at hand, I respectfully request that as a courtesy to my friend @Carl Emerson you post a thread in Christian Scriptures if you wish to debate this further, and you may @ tag me or reply to this post in the new thread and I will reply.

God bless you.
 
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