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Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

trophy33

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I am familiar and from Luther's own mouth, he wondered why he ever rejected the Ten Commandments? Through careful study of scripture and allowing the Scriptures to lead us, we will all come to this same conclusion.

Thou shalt sanctify the holy day. [Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.]

79 The word holy day (Feiertag) is rendered from the Hebrew word sabbath which properly signifies to rest, that is, to abstain from labor. Hence we are accustomed to say, Feierabend machen [that is, to cease working], or heiligen Abend geben [sanctify the Sabbath].

Now, in the Old Testament, God separated the seventh day, and appointed it for rest, and commanded that it should be regarded as holy above all others. As regards this external observance, this commandment was given to the Jews alone, that they should abstain from toilsome work, and rest, so that both man and beast might recuperate, and not be weakened by unremitting labor. Although they afterwards restricted this too closely, and grossly abused it, so that they traduced and could not endure in Christ those works which they themselves were accustomed to do on that day, as we read in the Gospel; just as though the commandment were fulfilled by doing no external, [manual] work whatever, which, however, was not the meaning, but, as we shall hear, that they sanctify the holy day or day of rest.

82 This commandment, therefore, according to its gross sense, does not concern us Christians; for it is altogether an external matter, like other ordinances of the Old Testament, which were attached to particular customs, persons, times, and places, and now have been made free through Christ.


 
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SabbathBlessings

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You are obviously not familiar with Luther, please do not pretend, its useless and childish.

Thou shalt sanctify the holy day. [Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.]

79 The word holy day (Feiertag) is rendered from the Hebrew word sabbath which properly signifies to rest, that is, to abstain from labor. Hence we are accustomed to say, Feierabend machen [that is, to cease working], or heiligen Abend geben [sanctify the Sabbath].

Now, in the Old Testament, God separated the seventh day, and appointed it for rest, and commanded that it should be regarded as holy above all others. As regards this external observance, this commandment was given to the Jews alone, that they should abstain from toilsome work, and rest, so that both man and beast might recuperate, and not be weakened by unremitting labor. Although they afterwards restricted this too closely, and grossly abused it, so that they traduced and could not endure in Christ those works which they themselves were accustomed to do on that day, as we read in the Gospel; just as though the commandment were fulfilled by doing no external, [manual] work whatever, which, however, was not the meaning, but, as we shall hear, that they sanctify the holy day or day of rest.

82 This commandment, therefore, according to its gross sense, does not concern us Christians; for it is altogether an external matter, like other ordinances of the Old Testament, which were attached to particular customs, persons, times, and places, and now have been made free through Christ.


Like I said, Luther was coming around.

There is no scripture that says the Sabbath is for Jews. God identifies it as MY holy day, but the teaching that only one of the Ten Commandments is for Jews and the other nine is for man is not a biblical teaching, but a man-made one.

The Ten Commandments is what we will be judged by, which is why it is in God's heavenly Temple under His mercy seat. God said not to edit His commandments- to not add to not subtract Deu 4:2 my faith is in His Word, but we are given free will.

No point in continuing, but wish you well.
 
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trophy33

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Like I said, Luther was coming around.

There is no scripture that says the Sabbath is for Jews. God identifies it as MY holy day, but the teaching that only one of the Ten Commandments is for Jews and the other nine is for man is not a biblical teaching, but a man-made one.
The Large Catechism is the official teaching.
 
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ozso

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Repeating out of context scriptures over again, doesn't make them say we no longer need to keep the Ten Commandments. These scriptures have all been address previously, so no point in going through them again.

God's people keep God's commandments which is the same conclusion the Reformers concluded after being told what scripture meant and started studying it for themselves.

This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2: 14 KJV.) But the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away.... The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law. ...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages.
—JOHN WESLEY, Sermons on Several Occasions, 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222.

I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments...Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also.
—MARTIN LUTHER, Spiritual Antichrist, pages 71, 72.

Anyway, I'm not the one you need to convince. I know I sure wouldn't spend so much time on a forum on something I didn't believe in.
Gotta wonder what's being said in between all those eclipses. :scratch:

How much was edited out? Have you read those complete works? Or at least read all of what Luther wrote on page 71 and 72?

Do you have a link to the complete works you got those snippets from?

Or are those edited spliced together snippets all you have to work with? And did they perchance come from Doug Batchelor's Amazing Facts website?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Gotta wonder what's being said in between all those eclipses. :scratch:

How much was edited out? Have you read those complete works? Or at least read all of what Luther wrote on page 71 and 72?

Do you have a link to the complete works you got those snippets from?

Or are those edited spliced together snippets all you have to work with? And did they perchance come from Doug Batchelor's Amazing Facts website?
Reading the bible from cover to cover is all that is needed to understand God's Truth. That is just an example of how people can unlearn the lies that have been handed down to them. We are only sanctified by the Truth of God's Word John 17:17 and only God can sanctity us. Eze 20:12

Like I said, I am not the one that you need to convince.
 
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ozso

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Reading the bible from cover to cover is all that is needed to understand God's Truth. That is just an example of how people can unlearn the lies that have been handed down to them. We are only sanctified by the Truth of God's Word John 17:17 and only God can sanctity us. Eze 20:12
Avoiding my questions about the Wesley and Luther material you posted?
Like I said, I am not the one that you need to convince.
I beg to differ.
 
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trophy33

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Gotta wonder what's being said in between all those eclipses. :scratch:

How much was edited out? Have you read those complete works? Or at least read all of what Luther wrote on page 71 and 72?

Do you have a link to the complete works you got those snippets from?

Or are those edited spliced together snippets all you have to work with? And did they perchance come from Doug Batchelor's Amazing Facts website?
Not sure if such work even exists, but if it does (Maybe Passional Christi und Antichristi?) I guess that Luther did not mean Sabbath, but making images, as the pamphlet is against the catholic church. But its hard to find the text.
 
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ozso

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@SabbathBlessings

Where did you get the "Spiritual Antichrist" by Luther? I cannot find it anywhere and neither google nor wiki knows it.

Here you go, Doug Batchelor's Amazing Facts as I predicted. I had to type in the whole edited quote. As far as I can tell Doug B just repeats what Ellen White came up with or plagiarized.

 
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trophy33

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Here you go, Doug Batchelor's Amazing Facts as I predicted. I had to type in the whole edited quote. As far as I can tell Doug B just repeats what Ellen White came up with or plagiarized.

I wonder if SabbathBlessing ever read something from Luther. More than a quote.
 
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ozso

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I wonder if SabbathBlessing ever read something from Luther. More than a quote.
It was actually bits of two different quotes put together. If like you say they're even genuine. I personally would wonder why the church I pledged myself to did potentially duplicitous stuff like that to promote their doctrine.
 
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Gary K

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It was actually bits of two different quotes put together. If like you say they're even genuine. I personally would wonder why the church I pledged myself to did potentially duplicitous stuff like that to promote their doctrine.
Here is a quote directly from a compilation of Luther's sermons.

The apostle Paul "contends with the proud
and arrogant and with those who are presumptuous on account of
their works/' etc.; "moreover, in the letter to the Romans, this
theme is almost his sole concern and he discusses it so persistently
and with such complexity as to weary the reader's attention, yet
it is a useful and wholesome wearying." There have always been
some among the Jews and the Gentiles who believed it to be
sufficient if they possessed virtue and knowledge, not of the kind
that is outwardly put on but that which is inward and comes from
the heart. This was also the opinion of many philosophers. The
best and sincerest among them, only a few of whom except Socrates
are well known, practiced this morality not in order to impress
other people or to seek their own glory but adhered to it from a
true feeling of virtue and wisdom—and yet they could not refrain
from being inwardly pleased with themselves and to praise themselves
in their heart as righteous and good men. Of such, the apostle
says: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools/'
etc. (Rom. 1:22).
But here just the opposite shall be taught. For in the church we
must not merely see to it that our righteousness and wisdom, which
are not worth anything, are neither upheld by our own sense of
glory nor extolled by the good opinion of others, but rather, we
must take pains that they are destroyed and plucked up from our
own complacent inner feeling (even though, according to the Gospel
[Matt. 5:15], "the lamp that is lit is not to be put under the
bushel but on the stand so that it shines unto all that are in the
house" and "the city set on a hill cannot be hid" [Matt. 5:14]).
(For when we ourselves despise them, it will be easy for us not to
care for the judgment and praise of others.)
As Christ says through the prophet Jeremiah: "to pluck up and
to break down and to destroy and to overthrow" (Jer. 1:10),
namely, everything that is in us (i.e., all that pleases us because it
comes from ourselves and belongs to us) and "to build and to
plant," namely, everything that is outside us and in Christ.
This is also the meaning of Daniel's figure of speech concerning
the stone which "smote the image" (Dan. 2:34).3
For God does not want to save us by our own but by an extraneous
righteousness which does not originate in ourselves but
comes to us from beyond ourselves, which does not arise on our
earth but comes from heaven. Therefore, we must come to know
this righteousness which is utterly external and foreign to us. That
is why our own personal righteousness must be uprooted4—according
to Ps. 45 (where we read): "Forget also thine own people
and thy father's house" (Ps. 45:10)—just as also Abraham was told
to leave his own country. And in the Song of Solomon we read:
"Come from Lebanon, my bride, and thou shalt be crowned" (S. of
Sol. 4:8). Also, the exodus of the people Israel has for a long time
been interpreted to signify the transition from vice to virtue. But
one should, rather, interpret it as the way from virtue to the grace
of Christ, because virtues are often the greater and worse faults
the less they are regarded as such and the more powerfully they
subject to themselves all human affections beyond all other goods.
So also the right side of Jordan was more fearful than the left one. pp. 3 and 4

Luther was a great advocate of keeping the 10 commandments. He didn't understand the Sabbath as that would have been a gigantic leap as the Reformation was the first time righteousness by faith alone had been preached and understood in more than a thousand years.

,
 
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ozso

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Here is a quote directly from a compilation of Luther's sermons.



Luther was a great advocate of keeping the 10 commandments. He didn't understand the Sabbath as that would have been a gigantic leap as the Reformation was the first time righteousness by faith alone had been preached and understood in more than a thousand years.

,
Luther never taught that the seventh day sabbath law is binding on Christians.
 
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Gary K

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Luther never taught that the seventh day sabbath law is binding on Christians.
Of course he didn't. It was too giant a leap to make all at once as justification by faith alone was a massive leap to make after more than a thousand years of RCC complete dominance in both the religious and the political worlds.
 
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ozso

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Of course he didn't. It was too giant a leap to make all at once as justification by faith alone was a massive leap to make after more than a thousand years of RCC complete dominance in both the religious and the political worlds.
Luther never taught that seventh day sabbath keeping is binding on Christians because the Christian church had never ever taught that.

The claim that the seventh day sabbath is binding on Christians was popularized to small degree by James Ockford, Peter Chamberlen and William Saller in 1650. And it didn't really take off until Ellen White started the SDA denomonation 200 years after that.
 
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Leaf473

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Here is a quote directly from a compilation of Luther's sermons.



Luther was a great advocate of keeping the 10 commandments.
He didn't understand the Sabbath as that would have been a gigantic leap as the Reformation was the first time righteousness by faith alone had been preached and understood in more than a thousand years.
Wouldn't he have had the Sabbath commandment written on his heart?
 
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Gary K

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Luther never taught that seventh day sabbath keeping is binding on Christians because the Christian church had never ever taught that.

The claim that the seventh day sabbath is binding on Christians was popularized to small degree by James Ockford, Peter Chamberlen and William Saller in 1650. And it didn't really take off until Ellen White started the SDA denomonation 200 years after that.
Ellen White didn't start the SDA denomination. When she started receiving visions she was only 17 years old and in very poor health as she had been struck on the nose by a stone thrown by another girl when she was in the 3rd grade which broke her nose so badly she was never able to go back to school. That she lived as long as she did and was able to do all the work she did was nothing but miraculous.

Her visions, as far as any theology goes were only to confirm the progress made by other Bible students or to encourage them by giving hints as to where to look in scripture when they got stuck. Her visions were primarily to reveal the sin in the church or to teach about who God is. She was no theologian. No person with a third grade education is. Her role was much like that of the Biblical prophets to reprove sin and provide warnings as to what would come if behaviors didn't change and to give encouragement to inspire people to build their relationship with God.

Her book The Desire of Ages is the best book ever written on the life of Christ. Her 5 book series entitled The Conflict of the Ages, when I read it in my mid twenties, taught me something I had never known before. That God loved even me, personally. Me, the person raised to despise myself and see no value in myself whatsover. The Holy Spirit used her writings to perform miracles in my life. Her little book titled Steps to Christ has taught countless people how to build a saving relationship with Jesus.

Edit:

She was a fulfillment of the prophecy found in Joel 2.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
 
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Gary K

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@SabbathBlessings

Where did you get the "Spiritual Antichrist" by Luther? I cannot find it anywhere and neither google nor wiki knows it.

The following quote is from Luther..

In brief, trust not in any who exalt you, but in those who humiliate you. For this is the judgment of God: "He hath cast down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble." See how unlike Christ was to His successors, though all will have it that they are His vicars. I fear that in truth very many of them have been in too serious a sense His vicars, for a vicar represents a prince who is absent. Now if a pontiff rules while Christ is absent and does not dwell in his heart, what else is he but a vicar of Christ? And then what is that Church but a multitude without Christ? What indeed is such a vicar but antichrist and an idol? How much more rightly did the Apostles speak, who call themselves servants of a present Christ, not the vicars of an absent one!

The quote is from Luther's book Concerning Christian Liberty and is taken from Luther's letter to pope Leo X.
 
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Gary K

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Joel 2 sounds like it's talking about a lot of people. Who are the other people who are doing that in modern times?
I don't know. All I know is that the Biblical signs of a prophet must be met before they can be considered true prophets.

Ellen White's work fits the the description of the work of John the Baptist and Elijah. Jesus told His disciples if you believe it John the Baptist is Elijah.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Do you know of anyone preparing the way for Jesus' 2nd advent?
 
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