Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

Leaf473 · Jul 1, 2023

Gary K said:
Yes. You hit that nail squarely on the head.
As to chickens, they are not scavengers as they do not eat rotten meat. Their principle natural diet is seeds and living bugs.

About chickens, I guess we see that differently.
"Chickens are omnivores.[26] In the wild, they often scratch at the soil to search for seeds, insects, and even animals as large as lizards, small snakes,[27] or sometimes young mice.[28]"

Chicken - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

_______________
Why do you say keep only the 10? One reason I'm often heard is that it was written by the finger of God. But is there a scripture that says do the things God wrote with his finger, but things he said with his mouth can be ignored?

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 4:4 - New Century Version

Jesus answered, “It is written in the Scriptures, ‘A person lives not on bread alone, but by everything God says.’”

www.biblegateway.com

Freth · Jul 1, 2023

Leaf473 said:
So, all of the instructions in the Old Testament can be divided into two categories:
The Ten Commandments
and
Ordinances.

Some of the ordinances are ceremonial and went out of effect. Others did not go out of effect.

We were talking about this law up above. Is it ceremonial?

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 15:38 - New Century Version

“Speak to the Israelites and tell them this: ‘Tie several pieces of thread together and attach them to the corners of your clothes. Put a blue thread in each one of these tassels. Wear them from now on.

www.biblegateway.com

I don't think either of us do, and that's why we're talking about it

The answer is in the next two verses.

Numbers 15:38-41 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring: That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.

What commandments? The last sentence points directly to the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20.

Exodus 20:1-17

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

In Revelation we find reference to the great harlot. (for some reason, the forum changes w-h-o-r-e to harlot)

Revelation 17:1-5 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

What then is whoring? To be unfaithful to God. Spiritual adultery. The definition of which is the breaking of the very commandments that show us how to love God.

Have no other gods.
Do not make a graven image; idolatry.
Do not take the Lord's name in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

These commandments are trampled under foot. All of them. They are commandments of worship. The very issue mentioned in Revelation is one of worship.

Gary K · Jul 1, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
It seems like those tablets are very much an idol to some.

This is an impossibility. The 10 commandments are an illustration of God's character, of who He is. Jesus said He came to reveal to humanity who the Father is.

Joh_14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

So, to give the commandments first place in our lives is to honor God, and that is not idolatry. It is idolatry to place our own opinion above the expressed word of God. That's what caused Satan to sin in heaven.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

God has the moral right to tell us how to live for two reasons. First because He is our creator. Second by the right of redemption. Jesus came to earth to redeem us. Thus it is impossible to give His commandments too high a priority in our lives. In coming to redeem us He demonstrated that God exists to live by the same principles found in the last six commandments that tell us to put others first in our .lives. We do exactly the opposite when we break any of them and demonstrate the same selfishness the devil displayed when he sinned in heaven.

Gary K · Jul 1, 2023

Leaf473 said:
About chickens, I guess we see that differently.
"Chickens are omnivores.[26] In the wild, they often scratch at the soil to search for seeds, insects, and even animals as large as lizards, small snakes,[27] or sometimes young mice.[28]"

Chicken - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

_______________
Why do you say keep only the 10? One reason I'm often heard is that it was written by the finger of God. But is there a scripture that says do the things God wrote with his finger, but things he said with his mouth can be ignored?

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 4:4 - New Century Version

Jesus answered, “It is written in the Scriptures, ‘A person lives not on bread alone, but by everything God says.’”

www.biblegateway.com

How does your comment on the diet of chickens contradict mine? Where does your quote say chickens eat rotten meat?

As to why to keep the 10 commandments read my last post to Ordinary Christian on this thread. I don't believe I can explain it any better than that.

ozso · Jul 1, 2023

Gary K said:
This is an impossibility. The 10 commandments are an illustration of God's character, of who He is. Jesus said He came to reveal to humanity who the Father is.

So, to give the commandments first place in our lives is to honor God, and that is not idolatry. It is idolatry to place our own opinion above the expressed word of God. That's what caused Satan to sin in heaven.

God has the moral right to tell us how to live for two reasons. First because He is our creator. Second by the right of redemption. Jesus came to earth to redeem us. Thus it is impossible to give His commandments too high a priority in our lives. In coming to redeem us He demonstrated that God exists to live by the same principles found in the last six commandments that tell us to put others first in our .lives. We do exactly the opposite when we break any of them and demonstrate the same selfishness the devil displayed when he sinned in heaven.

What I mean is the prime focus I've observed in some is those tablets. And not really so much the the tablets as the 4th commandment. It appears to take precedence over everything else. The other nine aren't really being addressed when talking about the ten. It all revolves around the 4th. The 4th seems to be a bigger topic of interest and concentration than all else. Even when God (the Father) and Jesus are talked about, it's usually in relation to the ten commandments, which is really all about the 4th commandment.

Gary K · Jul 1, 2023

Leaf473 said:
So, all of the instructions in the Old Testament can be divided into two categories:
The Ten Commandments
and
Ordinances.

Some of the ordinances are ceremonial and went out of effect. Others did not go out of effect.

We were talking about this law up above. Is it ceremonial?

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 15:38 - New Century Version

“Speak to the Israelites and tell them this: ‘Tie several pieces of thread together and attach them to the corners of your clothes. Put a blue thread in each one of these tassels. Wear them from now on.

www.biblegateway.com

I don't think either of us do, and that's why we're talking about it

If you are referring to the scrpture in the link you provided we are agreed.

Leaf473 · Jul 1, 2023

Freth said:
The answer is in the next two verses.

What commandments? The last sentence points directly to the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20.

In Revelation we find reference to the great harlot. (for some reason, the forum changes w-h-o-r-e to harlot)

What then is whoring? To be unfaithful to God. Spiritual adultery. The definition of which is the breaking of the very commandments that show us how to love God.

Have no other gods.

Do not make a graven image; idolatry.

Do not take the Lord's name in vain.

Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

These commandments are trampled under foot. All of them. They are commandments of worship. The very issue mentioned in Revelation is one of worship.

So... We are to make tassels in order to remember the ten commandments. Okay, do you do that?

Leaf473 · Jul 1, 2023

Gary K said:
How does your comment on the diet of chickens contradict mine? Where does your quote say chickens eat rotten meat?

Is that the only requirement to be a scavenger, that the animal eat rotten meat?

Also, is it only scavengers that are unclean?

Gary K said:
As to why to keep the 10 commandments read my last post to Ordinary Christian on this thread. I don't believe I can explain it any better than that.

Assuming that you mean post #643, the reasons that you gave there would apply to the entire law, wouldn't they?

Like, "The 10 commandments are an illustration of God's character, of who He is." Doesn't the entire law tell us who God is?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 11:45 - New Century Version

I am the LORD who brought you out of Egypt to be your God; you must be holy because I am holy.

www.biblegateway.com

Leaf473 · Jul 1, 2023

Gary K said:
If you are referring to the scrpture in the link you provided we are agreed.

Sorry, we are agreed about what? Is this law ceremonial?

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 15:38 - New Century Version

“Speak to the Israelites and tell them this: ‘Tie several pieces of thread together and attach them to the corners of your clothes. Put a blue thread in each one of these tassels. Wear them from now on.

www.biblegateway.com

Gary K · Jul 1, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Is that the only requirement to be a scavenger, that the animal eat rotten meat?

Also, is it only scavengers that are unclean?

Assuming that you mean post #643, the reasons that you gave there would apply to the entire law, wouldn't they?

Like, "The 10 commandments are an illustration of God's character, of who He is." Doesn't the entire law tell us who God is?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 11:45 - New Century Version

I am the LORD who brought you out of Egypt to be your God; you must be holy because I am holy.

www.biblegateway.com

I know of no scavengers who do not eat rotten meat. No it is not only scavengers which God classified as unclean, but in what God has proven through His condemnation of scavengers as food I see no reason to doubt Him on the rest of His classifications of unclean meats. Many of those animals have been proven to be disease carriers. For the rest I just rely on the goodness and love of God for us.

Gary K · Jul 1, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Sorry, we are agreed about what? Is this law ceremonial?

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 15:38 - New Century Version

“Speak to the Israelites and tell them this: ‘Tie several pieces of thread together and attach them to the corners of your clothes. Put a blue thread in each one of these tassels. Wear them from now on.

www.biblegateway.com

Yes.

Gary K · Jul 1, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Is that the only requirement to be a scavenger, that the animal eat rotten meat?

Also, is it only scavengers that are unclean?

Assuming that you mean post #643, the reasons that you gave there would apply to the entire law, wouldn't they?

Like, "The 10 commandments are an illustration of God's character, of who He is." Doesn't the entire law tell us who God is?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 11:45 - New Century Version

I am the LORD who brought you out of Egypt to be your God; you must be holy because I am holy.

www.biblegateway.com

Yes. I would just point out that that the only things God hasn't eliminated as still in effect are those which are for our own good. Which means I have to modify a previous position of mine. The apostles told the Gentile converts of their day to abstain from things offered to idols, unclean meats and blood which are both OT laws.

Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

This is what Paul was referring to when he told the the Corinthians that he would rather not eat something God created to be eaten with thanksgiving than cause a problem for another man's conscience.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

If you can't understand this right away don't worry about it as it took me some time to really understand this myself.

Leaf473 · Jul 1, 2023

Gary K said:
Yes. I would just point out that that the only things God hasn't eliminated as still in effect are those which are for our own good. Which means I have to modify a previous position of mine. The apostles told the Gentile converts of their day to abstain from things offered to idols, unclean meats and blood which are both OT laws.

This is what Paul was referring to when he told the the Corinthians that he would rather not eat something God created to be eaten with thanksgiving than cause a problem for another man's conscience.

If you can't understand this right away don't worry about it as it took me some time to really understand this myself.

Then... There are instructions in the Old Testament other than the 10 that we are to keep. This is super important, because Jesus said that we would show our love for him by keeping his commandments.

It's not something that I worry about, it's something that I enjoy discussing

Here's an interesting instruction about clean and unclean. The group that you fellowship with, do they practice this?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 14:54-57 - New Century Version

These are the teachings about any kind of skin disease, mildew on pieces of cloth or in a house, swellings, rashes, or bright spots on the skin; they help people decide when things are unclean and when they are clean. These are the teachings about all these kinds of diseases.

www.biblegateway.com

Gary K · Jul 1, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Then... There are instructions in the Old Testament other than the 10 that we are to keep. This is super important, because Jesus said that we would show our love for him by keeping his commandments.

It's not something that I worry about, it's something that I enjoy discussing

Here's an interesting instruction about clean and unclean. The group that you fellowship with, do they practice this?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 14:54-57 - New Century Version

These are the teachings about any kind of skin disease, mildew on pieces of cloth or in a house, swellings, rashes, or bright spots on the skin; they help people decide when things are unclean and when they are clean. These are the teachings about all these kinds of diseases.

www.biblegateway.com

For a minute there I confused the New Century version with the 20th Century vrsion and was wondering about you. That version was written by rationalists whose beliefs came out of the French revolution and are completely anti god.

The group I fellowship with? Do you mean the church I attend? Yes.

Not all SDAs remain faithful to God's word, unfortunately. We have our share of members, and even pastors, that have gone woke. Not our local church, but others that are living mostly in large population centers.

ozso · Jul 1, 2023

Gary K said:
I know of no scavengers who do not eat rotten meat. No it is not only scavengers which God classified as unclean, but in what God has proven through His condemnation of scavengers as food I see no reason to doubt Him on the rest of His classifications of unclean meats. Many of those animals have been proven to be disease carriers. For the rest I just rely on the goodness and love of God for us.

As the world has worn on even animals that weren't associated with disease have become so. All the salmonella and E.coli etc.

Gary K · Jul 1, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
As the world has worn on even animals that weren't associated with disease have become so. All the salmonella and E.coli etc.

I associate those mostly with vegetables and under cooked food.

ozso · Jul 1, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
The scripture says the devil deceives the whole world Rev 12:9, thats the majority of people but God’s Word tells us how not to be deceived, if we are to believe the Words of scripture and allow it to be our path. Psalms 119:105 When does Jesus ever say the majority takes the narrow path?

Well most associate that with the majority of the world, whereas you're associating it with the majority of the Body of Christ.

SabbathBlessings said:
You seem to be disagreeing with the scripture.

As I've already said several times, it's not scripture that's the issue, it's the misinterpretation and misuse of scripture that I disagree with.

SabbathBlessings said:
It’s there to help us so we make better decision. Jesus tells us a head of time because He loves us, but not everyone has faith in His Word. Which is why He pleas with us, Today if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts in rebellion. Heb 3:15, Psalms 95:7-8 we should listen. Obeying God is not meant to be burdensome 1 John 5:3 and its not including the blessing of God’s holy Sabbath day Isaiah 58:13-14 where He just wants to spend time with His people n the day He sanctified for holy use, only God can sanctify us. Eze 20:12

And only sabbatarians are doing that. When Jesus talks of the wide and narrow he's talking about sabbatarians vs non-sabbatarians. When he says not all who say Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, he's talking about sabbatarians vs non-sabbatarians. All the verses you post like Rev 12:9, Psalms 119:105, Heb 3:15, Psalms 95:7-8, 1 John 5:3, Isaiah 58:13-14, Eze 20:12 etc are about sabbatarians vs non-sabbatarians.

ozso · Jul 1, 2023

Leaf473 said:
So, all of the instructions in the Old Testament can be divided into two categories:
The Ten Commandments
and
Ordinances.

Some of the ordinances are ceremonial and went out of effect. Others did not go out of effect.

We were talking about this law up above. Is it ceremonial?

What it comes down to is God wrote the ten commandments in stone with his own finger. Whereas everything else was written by Moses on paper. Therefore the ten commandments are permanent. So virtually every verse in the Bible, especially in the new testament, about laws and commandments, is about the ten commandments because they are permanent.

However... in 2 Corinthians 3 it says:

"Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!" 2 Corinthians 3:1-11

Leaf473 · Jul 1, 2023

Gary K said:
For a minute there I confused the New Century version with the 20th Century vrsion and was wondering about you. That version was written by rationalists whose beliefs came out of the French revolution and are completely anti god.

The group I fellowship with? Do you mean the church I attend? Yes.

Not all SDAs remain faithful to God's word, unfortunately. We have our share of members, and even pastors, that have gone woke. Not our local church, but others that are living mostly in large population centers.

Really? They dismantle houses if mold returns? Cool

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 14:45 - New Century Version

Then the owner must tear down the house, remove all its stones, plaster, and wood, and take them to the unclean place outside the city.

www.biblegateway.com

Leaf473 · Jul 1, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
As the world has worn on even animals that weren't associated with disease have become so. All the salmonella and E.coli etc.

I came across this interesting Wikipedia article while I was researching pigeons.

"Urban feral pigeons, descendants of domestic rock doves (Columbia Livia), reside in urban environments, disturbing their natural feeding habits. They depend on human activities and interactions to obtain food, causing them to forage for spilled food or food provided by humans.[64]"

Columbidae - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So, our bodies may not have changed, but animal species may have adapted.

Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

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