Three apostolic sees

[Xeno.of.athens]

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@Xeno.of.athens what exactly do you find funny about the truth?

The truth is good. I do not laugh at the truth. I did laugh at the odd kind of interpretation of my words that your post contained. I would never have thought of the things you attributed to me. So, I laughed, and then wrote this reply.

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noun,plural the·ol·o·gies.​

1. the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.​
2. a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study.​
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[Always in His Presence]

Have you never wondered why, if Rome was where the Church was centered, why were the Synods in the early church never held there?

Hippo, Carthage, where major doctrine was decided was done in Africa, not Rome.

Why was that? And why, in the writings is the Papacy not mentioned as the head of the Synod? Granted, I might be missing it, but I don’t see the ‘head of the church’ mentioned.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Have you never wondered why, if Rome was where the Church was centered, why were the Synods in the early church never held there?

Hippo, Carthage, where major doctrine was decided was done in Africa, not Rome.

Why was that? And why, in the writings is the Papacy not mentioned as the head of the Synod? Granted, I might be missing it, but I don’t see the ‘head of the church’ mentioned.

Nope, I never wondered about that. The answer is very obvious. History tells the story very clearly.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Nope, I never wondered about that. The answer is very obvious. History tells the story very clearly.

Yes it does - there is ZERO mention of the Papacy and Rome was not the center for early church doctrine.

 

[Laodicean60]

The map is sort of useful from my perspective because it shows the extent of the Patriarch of Rome's jurisdiction at that time.

What does this have to do with the body of Christ? I get the impression you are trying to puff up your belief system.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The map is sort of useful from my perspective because it shows the extent of the Patriarch of Rome's jurisdiction at that time.

The extent of the Bishop of Rome's jurisdiction, was in its own Patriarchate.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The extent of the Bishop of Rome's jurisdiction, was in its own Patriarchate.

Yes, all the territory in RED

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What does this have to do with the body of Christ? I get the impression you are trying to puff up your belief system.

It is history, history is the book of the Holy Spirit in time. We read it and learn how God's purposes unfold in time. The beginning of our Catholic Church and its teachings are important revelation from God in time and history.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes it does

The earliest mention of the papacy is attributed to Pope Clement I, who is identified with Clement of Philippians 4:3. His letter to the Corinthians is the "first known example of the exercise and acceptance" of the ecclesiastical authority of the papacy. Another early mention of the papacy is in Matthew 16:19, where Jesus says to Peter, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven". In 756 AD, Pepin the Short, King of the Franks, invaded Italy, freeing Rome from the Lombards and giving large regions of Italy to the Pope, which gave the papacy a power it had not yet had.

 

[Laodicean60]

It is history

I understand that but I like others don't understand the point you're trying to make. I'll let you Catholics talk among yourself. Peace Out

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I understand that but I like others don't understand the point you're trying to make. I'll let you Catholics talk among yourself. Peace Out

Sorry to see you go, history is a rich source of revelation from God. It is a supplement to the holy scriptures, and to the part of Holy Tradition that is not written yet.

 

[tampasteve]

Yes, all the territory in RED

I mean, nominally. Many of those parts that were "under" the Patriarch of Rome were majority Arian at the time.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I mean, nominally. Many of those parts that were "under" the Patriarch of Rome were majority Arian at the time.

Some were, the wonder of it is that eventually all of them became Catholic and fully Trinitarian; papal authority may take time to assert the rule of Christ in his Church on earth, it is always in the hands of God to do so, but in the end, God reigns in heaven and on Earth.

 

[tampasteve]

Some were, the wonder of it is that eventually all of them became Catholic and fully Trinitarian; papal authority may take time to assert the rule of Christ in his Church on earth, it is always in the hands of God to do so, but in the end, God reigns in heaven and on Earth.

Obviously as a Protestant that crossed the Tiber in both directions I disagree, but I admire your zeal.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It might also be worth mentioning Canon 2 from the First Council of Constantinople,

"The bishops are not to go beyond their dioceses to churches lying outside of their bounds, nor bring confusion on the churches; but let the Bishop of Alexandria, according to the canons, alone administer the affairs of Egypt; and let the bishops of the East manage the East alone, the privileges of the Church in Antioch, which are mentioned in the canons of Nice, being preserved; and let the bishops of the Asian Diocese administer the Asian affairs only; and the Pontic bishops only Pontic matters; and the Thracian bishops only Thracian affairs. And let not bishops go beyond their dioceses for ordination or any other ecclesiastical ministrations, unless they be invited. And the aforesaid canon concerning dioceses being observed, it is evident that the synod of every province will administer the affairs of that particular province as was decreed at Nice. But the Churches of God in heathen nations must be governed according to the custom which has prevailed from the times of the Fathers."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It might also be worth mentioning Canon 2 from the First Council of Constantinople,

"The bishops are not to go beyond their dioceses to churches lying outside of their bounds, nor bring confusion on the churches; but let the Bishop of Alexandria, according to the canons, alone administer the affairs of Egypt; and let the bishops of the East manage the East alone, the privileges of the Church in Antioch, which are mentioned in the canons of Nice, being preserved; and let the bishops of the Asian Diocese administer the Asian affairs only; and the Pontic bishops only Pontic matters; and the Thracian bishops only Thracian affairs. And let not bishops go beyond their dioceses for ordination or any other ecclesiastical ministrations, unless they be invited. And the aforesaid canon concerning dioceses being observed, it is evident that the synod of every province will administer the affairs of that particular province as was decreed at Nice. But the Churches of God in heathen nations must be governed according to the custom which has prevailed from the times of the Fathers."

-CryptoLutheran

But the canon is about specific bishops, and Rome is not included in these instructions. So, Alexandria administers Egypt. And the other cities mentioned have whatever privileges mentioned. Rome has privileges of its own but this canon is not addressing Roman privileges.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

CANON 3 Because it is new Rome, the bishop of Constantinople is to enjoy the privileges of honour after the bishop of Rome.
[01 Ecumenical Council: The First Council of Constantinople (381 AD)]

 

[dzheremi]

CANON 3 Because it is new Rome, the bishop of Constantinople is to enjoy the privileges of honour after the bishop of Rome.
[01 Ecumenical Council: The First Council of Constantinople (381 AD)]

So "honor" means that he has jurisdiction outside of his own see? Because the same prerogatives that are said to be customary to Rome are likewise said to be recognized as customary to Alexandria and Antioch within their own spheres going back as far as Nicaea (really before that, as the wording of the canon is "Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis prevail", meaning that they were already in place since long before the council itself), yet neither Alexandria nor Antioch have ever claimed anything like the jurisdictional reach of the Roman Pope. The same is true, as far as I can tell without having a claimant to Constantinople proper in exactly the same sense that the Greeks do (the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople is a product of the Ottoman millet system of the 15th century, and at any rate its patriarch recognizes the authority of Catholicos of All Armenians at Holy Etchmiadzin, so there's no claim to any greater jurisdiction on his part anyway), of the Patriarch of Constantinople himself, recent kerfuffle over the status of Ukraine notwithstanding (since HAH is not asserting a right over Ukraine jurisdictionally -- only recognizing a body there that some of the other EO disagree with him about).

So I don't see how you can get from "privileges of honor" to "the Roman Pope has universal jurisdiction over all Christians" unless you already have such an ecclesiological vision in mind and are working backwards to find places to insert it into ancient contexts where it is absent.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So "honor" means that he has jurisdiction outside of his own see?

I do not know. It means something.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Holy See has universal Jurisdiction, I am sure you know that is the teaching. I do not expect you to accept it. Being first in honour and its privileges could be construed to imply jurisdictional privileges.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So I don't see how you can get from "privileges of honor" to "the Roman Pope has universal jurisdiction over all Christians" unless you already have such an ecclesiological vision in mind and are working backwards to find places to insert it into ancient contexts where it is absent.

This is usually the case IMO