Threatening??

b&wpac7 · May 25, 2011

awitch said:
You have a prayer that explicitly thanks god that you are not like the pagans, right?

I remember because I had the luck to have to read that passage out loud once at temple. God does have a sense of humor apparently.

I think most places have adopted a blessing for being made a Jew as opposed to a blessing for not being made a gentile. The second one seems a bit spiteful.

Booko · May 25, 2011

thegospelisoffensive said:
I didn't call you pagan although whether you believe it or not that dragon spoken of in your old testiment, is satan, and he is very much alive.....for a little while longer

Sorry, but what you wrote above in your longer post bears far more resemblance to Zoroastrian dualism than what's actually written in the Bible.

Isambard · May 25, 2011

According to the Bible, isn't everyone who isn't Jewish technically a pagan? That would mean he's right about satanism/wicca/ whatever being pagan. Ironically though, he himself would also be a pagan as Christianity wasn't around when the Bible was written.

Booko · May 25, 2011

b&wpac7 said:
I think most places have adopted a blessing for being made a Jew as opposed to a blessing for not being made a gentile. The second one seems a bit spiteful.

I can't say for anywhere else, but that was the case for the shul where we attended our neighbor's boys' bar mitzvahs.

Oh, I mean the blessing for being made a Jew that is. I heard nothing about not being made a gentile.

awitch · May 25, 2011

Booko said:
Oh, I mean the blessing for being made a Jew that is. I heard nothing about not being made a gentile.

Apparently it was an older translation of the Aleinu in the siddur.

Wiki says the passage was "...who has not made us like the nations of the world..." which was later censored. The version I read from explicitly said "...who has not made us like the pagans of the world..." It sounds like the idea was they were grateful to know the proper protocols for worship.

Jane_the_Bane · May 25, 2011

Please excuse the snark, but it seems to me that Judaism basically turned tribalism into a religion.

And now I've got that catchy tune running through my head once more: "Tradition... tradition... tra-di-tion!"

Booko · May 25, 2011

Jane_the_Bane said:
Please excuse the snark, but it seems to me that Judaism basically turned tribalism into a religion.

Another way of looking at it might be that by doing things to keep themselves distinct from their neighbors, their culture still exists today while everyone else in that part of the world is nothing more than a name from history.

And now I've got that catchy tune running through my head once more: "Tradition... tradition... tra-di-tion!"

I really should get my ex-RCC husband to rewrite that from an RCC point of view.

Then again, the RCC has Tom Lehrer already.

Genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!

vespasia · May 25, 2011

Hi Jane

Errrr... I don't want to burst your bubble, but... Wicca is very much a (neo-)pagan religion. Its personal (and at the very least semi-mythological) history even seizes upon the etymology of the "country-dwellers", claiming that it's based on an unbroken line of tradition that was kept alive in out-of-the-way places.

Wicca is a modern construction. Old Scire was an old cove [means character in most parts of the UK] who plagerised, nabbed and plain made stuff up from a heady mix of freemasonary, amateur dramatics, folklore and a big sprinkle from Nuncie' Al's ceremonial stuff. WW1 has so much to answer for here. Scires stuff can still be found in the Museum in Boscastle. Phillip Hesleton is a linaged garderian who used his scholarly mind to investigate the roots of the founder of wicca and found it was not as he had hoped it should be. You can order his book Gerald Gardner and the Cauldren of Inspiration from Capell Bann Publishing. Its well written and worth reading. If you can access Boscastle its possible to access the archieves if you contact the curator. Do bear in mind he can be out on call on the lifeboat though.

I am aware of what the concussed liter than lite fluffies like to claim but its simply not true as it does not bear any real scrutiny- its part of that bizarre UK sense of wry humour that aims to fleece the grokkles away from their dosh. May I suggest Prof. Ron Hutton as a better source on the impact of folklore on current neopagan beliefs.

thegospelisgoodnews · May 25, 2011

Gardenia said:
Actually, this is at least one thing he's got right (but then, he's already had this pointed out to him earlier in the thread). Wicca is a pagan tradition, it's just not the only pagan tradition. Modern day druids are also pagans, but there doesn't have to be an overlap between Wicca and druidry - just like a Greek recon is a pagan, but can be separate from both Wicca and druidry... and so on.

This is exactly why trying to lump them all in and saying there's some conspiracy where the leadership of each group reports to some other leader, all the way up to Satan... well, it just doesn't make sense. Paganism is made up of many different groups and individuals, there is no single structured pagan hierarchy. If he wants to believe that pagans/non-Christians are being unwittingly tricked by Satan to not be Christians? Well, okay - I'm not going to agree with him, but he can believe it if he wants. However, to make the claim that there's some secret conspiracy in paganism? Nope, proof please.

Its a spiritual conspiracy, the rank and file of spirits in paganism follow all the way up to satan, thats why its not seen. And for proof just ask any of the channeled or called up spirits to speak on who Jesus Christ is, use the name of Jesus against them if it has no effect then you are right and I am wrong. on ther other hand if they get really agitated and unruly then be sure of one thing Jesus is King over every spirit and they know it!

awitch · May 25, 2011

thegospelisoffensive said:
And for proof just ask any of the channeled or called up spirits to speak on who Jesus Christ is, use the name of Jesus against them if it has no effect then you are right and I am wrong. on ther other hand if they get really agitated and unruly then be sure of one thing Jesus is King over every spirit and they know it!

I took your advice. They kind of shrugged when I brought up Jesus and couldn't really care less.

I guess you're wrong. Thanks for completely confirming my beliefs.

thegospelisgoodnews · May 25, 2011

vespasia said:
I have to love the presumptions. Wiccans are not pagans- do at least bother to research the history of wicca before leaping in with errenous sweeping statements. Come to think of it some research into 'pagans' etmological routes would not go amiss either.

Druidism is a C17th reconstruction based on latin historic sources and a whole heap of romantic notions in reaction to the Industrial Revelotion in the UK.

If you practice witchcraft you tend to be a witch not a wiccan which is a more spiritual and mediative path with its own forms of constructed liturgies.

Astral projection and channeling - your showing ignorance yet again your mixing and matching with the occasional jargon word used in the wrong place and the wrong context. There is another word I could use- does the phrase 'ecclectic fluffy' ring any bells?

You have failed to see the common patriarch roots of Cathliscim, Eastern Orthodoxy and Pentecostal forms of Christianity.

Satanism as a form of paganism ahhh blessikins. Nope. You have not read much have you.

How about the bible as a starting point to read - its worth it honest.

sorry miss wikipedia wicca is a form of paganism, but you sounded really smart

vespasia · May 25, 2011

Oh but I am.

Gardenia · May 25, 2011

thegospelisoffensive said:
And for proof just ask any of the channeled or called up spirits to speak on who Jesus Christ is, use the name of Jesus against them if it has no effect then you are right and I am wrong. on ther other hand if they get really agitated and unruly then be sure of one thing Jesus is King over every spirit and they know it!

I have spoken to Deity(/deities) about Jesus in the past, have brought up relevant Bible verses (and lines from other holy texts) in conversation with both Deity and spirits, and there has been a cross and Bible verse on my ancestor shrine for years now - which is right next to my other shrines (since I live in a small apartment, space is tight)... and you know what? It's never been an issue. No one gets agitated, angry, or anything else... reactions have been the same as on most other topics. So...

kranberrydude · May 25, 2011

i have read some of the posts; i don't consider myself really knowledgeable on the subject of wicca/paganism but i'm always curious about the spiritual realm; but i have some links that you may find interesting to look at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgkg55phzFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGbs-B208ag"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGbs-B208ag"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGbs-B208ag

awitch · May 25, 2011

kranberrydude said:
i have read some of the posts; i don't consider myself really knowledgeable on the subject of wicca/paganism but i'm always curious about the spiritual realm; but i have some links that you may find interesting to look at:

Still sounds like propaganda to me because it hits almost all of the themes commonly heard in witch to Christian story: sex, drugs, rock and roll, depression, angry teenager, wanting power etc. Perhaps Gardenia can confirm that Wiccans do not worship trees (I've never known any who did). And everything ends happily ever after after converting. All I can say is that I'm glad she's happy.

Gardenia · May 25, 2011

kranberrydude said:
i have read some of the posts; i don't consider myself really knowledgeable on the subject of wicca/paganism but i'm always curious about the spiritual realm; but i have some links that you may find interesting to look at:

I'm glad she's found her happiness, and I do like hearing the stories of other people... but, truth is, you can find people telling the same sort of tale about ALL religions. One story, even a dozen, it's not enough to be convincing in itself. I already feel the things converts to Christianity often describe in my own religion, you know?

And awitch is right, it does touch on many common themes... but I can believe that maybe she was into all that, and maybe converting got her out of it... but, so what? It's good for her (okay that sounds snarky, lol, but I mean that!), but it doesn't mean much to my own spirituality. Again, stories like this are found for every religion.
Oh! As to the tree thing... nope, never met a Wiccan who worships trees, but it would not surprise me if a few were out there. Yes though, there's the common theme thing again. Usually see such stories including object worship and what not, even though it's not a very common practice.

As for the second video... a Kemetic pagan who believes in God, the Devil, Heaven and Hell, and the Bible to an extent... yeeeah.
Other problems I have, I felt in the beginning that the Christian was misunderstanding some of the answers, either on purpose or accident, but perhaps not. Either way, it's a good example of what I do not want people to do to me. She doesn't, to me, seem to be really interested in their answers, and then spent most of the time preaching at them, you know? I want actual dialogue, a real conversation where both sides listen to each other, both sides get an equal say in it. I don't feel I saw that here.
(Also the whole either Jesus was who he said he was, or he wasn't... feels like the whole lord lunatic liar bit, which I just don't agree with either.)

Booko · May 25, 2011

kranberrydude said:
i have read some of the posts; i don't consider myself really knowledgeable on the subject of wicca/paganism but i'm always curious about the spiritual realm; but i have some links that you may find interesting to look at:

I found the shade of purple hair in the 2nd video interesting.

I'm probably too old to be that bold, but perhaps I'll borrow my daughter's hair extensions sometime, just for funzies.

But then I don't believe in an evil demigod named Satan any more than I believe in Ahriman.

I do, however, believe in literary tools such as allegory and metaphor that help humans understand concepts that are...more than simply mundane.

So, where do you think the Jews went wrong all those years, believing not that Satan was evil, but more like he was doing God's necessary work as a prosecutor to test the faithfulness of humanity?

And if they were so far off on the nature of Ha-Satan, why do you think God didn't tell Moses about such a big mistake when He was speaking from that bush that burned but was not consumed?

awitch · May 25, 2011

The other strange thing about these stories is that the conversion is always like a light switch. These people practice a religion for years and then just suddenly convert. That's pretty inconsistent when (in my experience), pagan religions develop over time and then there's a full paradigm shift in a very short time span. And then what happens to all of the previous experiences after the change? They just abandon them and pretend they never happened?

Gardenia · May 25, 2011

awitch said:
The other strange thing about these stories is that the conversion is always like a light switch. These people practice a religion for years and then just suddenly convert. That's pretty inconsistent when (in my experience), pagan religions develop over time and then there's a full paradigm shift in a very short time span. And then what happens to all of the previous experiences after the change? They just abandon them and pretend they never happened?

Well, my guess? Testimonies aren't just tools to try and convert non-believers, they can also serve as affirmations of faith to the believers ("look, God has saved this person and totally changed their life, God is powerful/good/etc and I'm on the right path!") - for either, the more dramatic stories are what people want to pass around. The sudden conversion fits that criteria, so either the stories get embellished to make the conversion more sudden than it was, or these people really did convert quickly (not unheard of - some do convert quickly and never look back - one of my friends became Christian and burned all her old pagan books and whatnot...) and since it makes for a better story, they're the ones more likely to be passed on. Could say the same for the standard sex, drugs, drinking line that comes up so often.

b&wpac7 · May 25, 2011

awitch said:
Still sounds like propaganda to me because it hits almost all of the themes commonly heard in witch to Christian story: sex, drugs, rock and roll, depression, angry teenager, wanting power etc. Perhaps Gardenia can confirm that Wiccans do not worship trees (I've never known any who did). And everything ends happily ever after after converting. All I can say is that I'm glad she's happy.

I can tell you that my own quest was one of inches. It took years to move positions from Christian to doubting, to searcher, to atheist, to interested in Judaism, to deciding to pursue conversion, to actually converting. This entire process took over a decade. There was no light-switch moment.

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