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Thoughts on UNconditional election

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by TedT, Jan 13, 2021 at 2:11 PM.

  1. TedT

    TedT New Member

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    I was asked: "Where is your verse that states the opposite of UE?"
    My answer: Every verse that states or implies our GOD is loving, righteous and just.

    1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. Since there are elect angels we can assume that the demonic angels were passed over for election or not considered for election. Angels do not presumably have any racial solidarity, ie, they all are holy or sinful by their own choice, not by anyone else's choice. So now we have to answer the question: were some elected before or after the fall of the Satanic rebellion?

    IF they were elected / chosen before the fall then there is no stated reason for the non-election of the others. Unmerited election then also means unmerited non-election, ie, for no lack of merit at all some were passed over for salvation and NOT chosen to be saved if they should ever sin.

    What can we make of such a supposition? Can we say it is loving? Righteous? Just? The best we can say is HE is sovereign and if HE chose this way then who are you to argue, which is not a real answer at all. Why teach us HE is loving, righteous and just if it has no meaning in the biggest question in their existence: Why were some passed over for election? !!!

    It is entirely possible that IF the decision was really made for some to receive unmerited election and others to receive unmerited rejection for election with no indication that this decision was loving, righteous or just could have precipitated the Satanic war in heaven for NOT BEING loving, righteous or just so they committed themselves to war, putting their faith in the belief that YHWH was a false god and a liar, unworthy of being their GOD.

    'Unconditional' implies 'no reason', not just an 'unknown reason' because if there was a reason there would be merit by being on the side of the reason. Unconditional election means those passed over were just as acceptable for election as everyone but did not receive it....that is what 'without merit or dis-merit' also means! That does NOT sound like my GOD at all. IF they were passed over for a evil they did then there is merit to the election of those that were not passed over but who got the promise of election because they did not do that evil!!

    Thus, if election was a response to the Satanic rebellion to reward those angels who did not rebel and to pass over those angels who did rebel and condemn them on the spot, then merit makes sense. Their rebellion to the command to put their faith in the Son and to love one another which they heard in the beginning* is the reason they were passed over to be HIS Bride. The choice by some to accept HIM as their GOD and to put their faith in in HIS Son was the reason they were elected based upon the merit of this choice to obey the commandment.

    *[1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

    1 John 3:8 ...for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary(#27) says: “sinneth from the beginning - from the time that sin began; from the time that he became what he is, the devil.”

    1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us: 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.]

    Thus we probably have a precedent for the election of the angels being based upon merit and proper free will decisions being the condition of being elected. And since unconditional election is false in the first people elected, I strongly suggest that it is wrongly used for sinful men who were also elected before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4, you know: at the beginning, the time of the Satanic fall, perhaps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021 at 2:16 PM
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  2. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    He is all of that, even while exercising His right who to exact just punishment from and to show His wrath towards...
    His Son in the believer's stead by being pleased to bruise Him, or the unbeliever, who hates Him and His ways and will never love Him.
    I agree.
    This means that there is nothing in a man or woman that would influence God in any way to save them versus another person.
    No wisdom, no strength, no intelligence, no riches, no. advantage. at. all.
    I'm sorry to hear that.
    It's my God, and He makes me tremble with the scope of His power and will.

    He also makes me cry out to Him in gratitude for the fact that He even bothered Himself with a dirtbag like me, instead of leaving me in my sins... thinking I was OK with Him and not even caring that I had offended Him so badly.
    Election is the totally unmerited favor of a loving God towards those that He has adopted as His children, who were chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), and whose names were written in the Book of Life...again, from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ).

    God saves and God damns, and we as sinful men are fully responsible to repent of it and to seek God...
    Though we will not, in and of ourselves ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ).

    Everything God does is just;
    Including choosing to have mercy on one and not another ( Romans 9:13-18 ).


    May God be pleased to show you many things in His precious word.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021 at 7:00 PM
  3. TedT

    TedT New Member

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    I suspect you accept inherited sin also...which is a blasphemy to me as it means that the GOD who is Love, righteous and just created a world of people as evil by having them inherit Adam's sin when there was no reason to do so (hHE didn't make th eangels tha tway) and no one is evil by their free will decision.
     
  4. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    We as men are all evil by our freewill decisions.

    Please see Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, and Romans 9:14-24.
    It should answer all your objections.

    God is not just a God of love...He is also willing to show His wrath and to make His power known.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021 at 6:30 PM
  5. TedT

    TedT New Member

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    Why some and not all since no one merited that favour... This doctrine denigrates HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS justice.
     
  6. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    I disagree.
    It exalts His justice by making all men equal in His sight, it completely removes any possible way for men to deserve or merit His gifts, and it makes His love, love and His hate, hate.

    The fact is, we've all sinned ( Romans 3:23, Ecclesiastes 7:20, etc ).
    There is none righteous, no not one.

    By pardoning some of us, He shows to all His desire to show mercy...
    By reserving the rest to their righteous judgment, He shows to all that He is perfectly willing to carry out sentence on those who rebelliously refuse to repent, but for the miracle of the new birth.

    Which is the only way that any of us would even care that we've offended a holy God.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021 at 7:47 PM
  7. TedT

    TedT New Member

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    We as people are born sinful because humans die in the womb and before any will is developed and death is the wages of sin, not the consequence of life. Death proves sinfulness.


    HE IS love and justice. HE shows HIS wrath upon HIS enemies not HIS bride by creating her evil. She is evil by a free will choice, not by GOD's choice, but because she is elect she is not condemned nor under wrath: Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
     
  8. TedT

    TedT New Member

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    Wow - believing HE chose some to be saved from hell but not others when there is no difference between them is JUST??
     
  9. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
    ( Romans 1:18-20 )

    We all know, inherently, who God is.
    We all love sin and we all hate God ( Romans 1:30-32 ).

    That is what the Bible says.
    If you wish to contest it, then do so...

    But I'm just telling you what it says, my friend.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021 at 8:01 PM
  10. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    Amen.
    He does show His wrath upon His enemies...
    but I take it that you do not know who Christ's bride really is, do you?

    We were His enemies as well.
    Yes, all of mankind is evil by a freewill choice ( John 3:19-20 ).

    Also, read that verse carefully, my friend...
    Whosoever does not believe, is condemned already.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021 at 8:02 PM
  11. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    Hard to believe, isn't it?
    That He turns a blind eye towards our efforts to merit His favor and grace...
    To buy it, coerce it, beg it, borrow it, steal it or otherwise pry it from His hands by any means possible;

    That whatever God decides to do with willfully sinful, blasphemous ( insulting ) and rebellious men, who have the audacity to ask Him why He does things as He does, is JUST, and the justifier of the ungodly...
    The "whoseover believeth", from the heart.

    To me, it's amazing that He shows His grace to any of us...
    At all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021 at 7:24 PM
  12. TedT

    TedT New Member

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    You are only telling me what your interpretation of what is written means...which says nothing against my pov that death proves sin and so we can believe that foetal death proves foetal sinfulness, the point you were supposedly addressing.
     
  13. TedT

    TedT New Member

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    Why ignore that whosoever believes is not condemned...as if it contradicts the rest of the sentence? You seem to think that this verse refers to the same people who quit being condemned when they believe...I think it refers to different people , the sinful good seed and the demonic tares are NOT the same people and goats do NOT become sheep upon conversion and the prodigal son was NOT a fake son who became a real son upon his return.

    The good seed are sinful but they are elect and are the sinners who are never condemned as they were chosen to be elect....based upon their prior faith in Christ. Those who never believed are those who repudiated YHWH as a liar and a false god and so never believed.
     
  14. TedT

    TedT New Member

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    The merit for ELECTION was their faith in the Son as saviour from condemnation. Election was the promise to anyone who put their faith in Him as saviour.

    The dis-merit of those passed over for election was not just a refusal to put their faith in YHWH as GOD but they went deeper into their rejection of HIM when they called HIM a liar and a false god, sinning the unforgivable sin. These people became the Satanic demons.

    When the elect were called out from among these demons so these reprobate could be damned, just like they are on earth, some elect rebelled against this command, idolizing their love and fellowship with their now Satanic friends more than their GOD, they too became sinful (but not demonic) and were sent to earth to live with the demonic and in their own sin until the time of the harvest, that is, their maturity in holiness.

    That only sinners are born on earth means no one would be saved if GOD had not already promised to save some who were elected to be HIS Bride. They are saved by the grace of GOD fulfilling HIS promise of election in them, not by any merit they have as sinners on earth nor by the merit of anything they can do on earth to earn forgiveness.

    So we can agree with the no merit doctrine as it applies to sinners on earth (either elect or non-elect) but when applied to election before the earth was founded, where this conversation started, the doctrine of election and therefore non-election for no merit or dis-merit is a blasphemy against HIS good NAME as loving, righteous and just.
     
  15. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    Ted,
    His good name is still good, even though you don't seem to like the fact that He does as He wishes, both in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth ( Daniel 4:35 )...
    That He has mercy on some, and hardens others ( Romans 9:14-18 ).

    God is righteous whether we believe His words, and everything they say, or not.
    The words say what they say, whether or not we receive them.
    For example:

    " And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:48 ).

    How many believed here?
    As many as were ordained to eternal life.
    How many didn't?
    As many as were not ordained to eternal life.

    It really is no more difficult than that, sir.

    That said, I take my leave of this thread...

    I assure you that my understanding of the Bible has come over decades, and all I did was to obey the Lord in both 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15...and then believe the words on the page.
    That is what I encourage you to do, as well.


    May God bless you greatly.
     
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