Thoughts on transgender issues

[Carl Emerson]

I'm saying it based on your post.

Well if the truth hurts then it is harder to appreciate the Love behind it.

 

[Quartermaine]

I already answered? Some mental illnesses can be triggered by biological factors, which need to be corrected. However, there is no way to change your complete biology from male to female.

specifically plastic surgery. something that only alter's one's appearance not any function. Looking different can't have any effect on the biological factors you talk about. it doesn't change brain chemistry.

Respectful? Probably. But again, using atheists as an analogy; can you imagine how atheists would feel if they had to act as though God were real, or forced to say things such as 'God Bless' or 'Praise Jesus' when they don't agree with Christianity? Respect goes both ways--it's respectful if people refer to others as their preferred pronouns, but it is also respectful to not force anyone to do so and to understand when someone doesn't do so based on personal beliefs and ideologies.

just how often have you been forced into such things?

 

[Quartermaine]

Well if the truth hurts then it is harder to appreciate the Love behind it.

the truth is that LBGT is not a disorder
the truth is that all the evidence, and there is a lot of it, says that yes it is inborn
the truth is there is no PR machine or agenda
the truth is the LGBT community is not engaged in a massive campaign of lies and deceit.
the truth is that they aren't demanding "free medical interventions at will"

the truth is that if you were to say the same things about black people, or Jews, or the handicapped no one would call it love

I'm sorry if that truth hurts

 

[Carl Emerson]

the truth is that LBGT is not a disorder
the truth is that all the evidence, and there is a lot of it, says that yes it is inborn
the truth is there is no PR machine or agenda
the truth is the LGBT community is not engaged in a massive campaign of lies and deceit.
the truth is that they aren't demanding "free medical interventions at will"

the truth is that if you were to say the same things about black people, or Jews, or the handicapped no one would call it love

I'm sorry if that truth hurts

No it makes me smile - very predictable...

Tell me - if Jesus was to walk in today's streets, would He heal a trans...

 

[Amittai]

For me the tricky part is that a component of the disorder is spiritual.
...
The Church is generally disempowered to deal with this.
...

A church, disempowered to deal with the spiritual components that are in all affairs . . . hmm . . .

 

[Carl Emerson]

A church, disempowered to deal with the spiritual components that are in all affairs . . . hmm . . .

Well if the church doesn't believe in the gifts they wont have the discernment operating to know what is troubling folks spiritually.

 

[Amittai]

Well if the church doesn't believe in the gifts they wont have the discernment operating to know what is troubling folks spiritually.

When one lacks, all lack. Insightful grasp of the situation within one denomination will help members of another denomination to help them. Bigger situations encompassing the thread topic, lacking in pastoring, and sound foundation, and God's message for the church, are vivid in my consciousness. It implicates: virtues, belief, a "pastoral category" of "persons" altogether, monoliths which combat against individual integrity.

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

specifically plastic surgery. something that only alter's one's appearance not any function. Looking different can't have any effect on the biological factors you talk about. it doesn't change brain chemistry.

I don't think we have any conclusive evidence on whether or not lifestyle changes(more exercise, developing healthy habits and coping mechanisms, etc)can affect chemical imbalances in the brain. However, we have noticed there is certainly a link between chemical imbalances in the brain and mood disorders, such as anxiety and depression. So I'm not quick to make any assertion, as this is still a very new area to science.

Furthermore, we can prove that gender dysphoria has a biological component involving, as I said before, the brain operating in ways similar to that of the opposite sex. If as you say a change in physical appearance cannot change biological factors, then by your own reasoning transitioning would not be a valid method to solve gender dysphoria altogether.

just how often have you been forced into such things?

One needn't look too far on the internet to observe arguments over these things. I remember a music producer I used to follow in a niche fandom had a public tantrum because someone didn't refer to them as the right pronouns. I personally haven't had any of this aimed at me, as I'm good at not ticking people off and minimizing my presence--however, I've observed it in other peoples' interactions for quite a while now.

the truth is that LBGT is not a disorder
the truth is that all the evidence, and there is a lot of it, says that yes it is inborn
the truth is there is no PR machine or agenda
the truth is the LGBT community is not engaged in a massive campaign of lies and deceit.
the truth is that they aren't demanding "free medical interventions at will"

the truth is that if you were to say the same things about black people, or Jews, or the handicapped no one would call it love

I'm sorry if that truth hurts

I cannot say whether or not being gay or lesbian is a disorder, but it does go against our natural drive to mate with the opposite sex. I will give them the benefit, however, that most sexual attractions(besides the one we're born with as a species)are a product of how you're brought up and what you're exposed to. If you know anything about people who watch porn regularly, you know one can become aroused or have a 'kink' for something as silly even as human furniture.
It is not inborn. Scientists as recent as this past year have said only around 25% of being gay is POSSIBLY genetic, and there's a lot more to get into on that subject given how genes work.
Even if it isn't always the fault of the LGBT community itself, it is absolutely being used as an agenda and a political tool for both sides and to generate revenue with large corporations by cashing in on merch sales during pride month and attempting to gain viewership for media by being extra 'inclusive' with its cast.
Well...a section of the LGBT is extremely hateful and is out to get people. Not all of it, but part of it. A very loud minority, if you will.
I mean...'demanding free medical interventions at will'? I really don't know. I'm not even sure who claimed that.

Black people, Jews, and handicapped people can all be born gay & trans, or cisgender & straight. It is not the same thing at all.

 

[Quartermaine]

No it makes me smile - very predictable...

facts usually are predictable

Tell me - if Jesus was to walk in today's streets, would He heal a trans...

and he would rebuke those presenting false witness about LGBT's

 

[KCfromNC]

Consider this; what are the difference between the social and legal ramifications of 1. Not referring to a trans person by their preferred pronouns/'deadnaming' them and 2. Telling a Christian that they're 'delusional and their magical sky daddy doesn't exist'.

I'll give you a hint...one of these happens way more often than the other, and it is ignored/borderline encouraged at times unlike the former which has VERY serious ramifications.

Strange you expect me to guess what your argument is.

Also strange you seem surprised that something happens more often to a larger group of people. Or at least I think you do, but since I'm forced to guess based on just a hint, who knows?

Maybe if you just came out and said what you meant it would be less strange. Or perhaps all of this innuendo is just a way to avoid putting forward an idea which, when stated plainly, is just bad. Without more data I'll just have to wait and see.

If nothing was being forced of me, I would not mind the community as much. However, as long as I'm made involved with the situation by having certain things demanded of me, I have every right to weigh in on the situation.

I have zero idea what you're talking about.

Even then, as I've stated before, I still care about the community on a fundamental level and wish doctors could find a way to alleviate GD without having to use such drastic means that also happen to disrupt people other than the person suffering from GD.

I'm sure the medical community is eager to peer review the work you've been doing on alternatives during your career in the field.

 

[Quartermaine]

I don't think we have any conclusive evidence on whether or not lifestyle changes(more exercise, developing healthy habits and coping mechanisms, etc)can affect chemical imbalances in the brain. However, we have noticed there is certainly a link between chemical imbalances in the brain and mood disorders, such as anxiety and depression. So I'm not quick to make any assertion, as this is still a very new area to science.



Furthermore, we can prove that gender dysphoria has a biological component involving, as I said before, the brain operating in ways similar to that of the opposite sex. If as you say a change in physical appearance cannot change biological factors, then by your own reasoning transitioning would not be a valid method to solve gender dysphoria altogether.

Gender dysphoria is the anxiety and distress a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity and their physical gender/appearance. When one's physical appearance is altered cosmetically to conform to the internalized gender image the distress goes away.

One needn't look too far on the internet to observe arguments over these things. I remember a music producer I used to follow in a niche fandom had a public tantrum because someone didn't refer to them as the right pronouns. I personally haven't had any of this aimed at me, as I'm good at not ticking people off and minimizing my presence--however, I've observed it in other peoples' interactions for quite a while now.

you said: "If nothing was being forced of me, I would not mind the community as much." but you are now saying nothing is being forced on you

I cannot say whether or not being gay or lesbian is a disorder, but it does go against our natural drive to mate with the opposite sex. I will give them the benefit, however, that most sexual attractions(besides the one we're born with as a species)are a product of how you're brought up and what you're exposed to. If you know anything about people who watch porn regularly, you know one can become aroused or have a 'kink' for something as silly even as human furniture.

not a disorder because there is no evidence at all to suggest it is.

It is not inborn. Scientists as recent as this past year have said only around 25% of being gay is POSSIBLY genetic, and there's a lot more to get into on that subject given how genes work.

all the evidence shows that it is inborn. and genetics is only one part of being inborn.

Even if it isn't always the fault of the LGBT community itself, it is absolutely being used as an agenda and a political tool for both sides and to generate revenue with large corporations by cashing in on merch sales during pride month and attempting to gain viewership for media by being extra 'inclusive' with its cast.

like how they do with other minorities?

Well...a section of the LGBT is extremely hateful and is out to get people. Not all of it, but part of it. A very loud minority, if you will.

in response to the extremely hateful religious conservatives (not all of them of course) who have spent decades lying, attacking and demonizing the LGBT community claiming everything from demonic possession to spiritual sickness to an inability to love to claims about being pedophiles, murderers, diseased and bent on harassing everyone possible.

I mean...'demanding free medical interventions at will'? I really don't know. I'm not even sure who claimed that.

post #4

Black people, Jews, and handicapped people can all be born gay & trans, or cisgender & straight. It is not the same thing at all.

making the same claims about any other minority that are made about LGBT's would be considered hate,

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

Strange you expect me to guess what your argument is.

Also strange you seem surprised that something happens more often to a larger group of people. Or at least I think you do, but since I'm forced to guess based on just a hint, who knows?

Maybe if you just came out and said what you meant it would be less strange. Or perhaps all of this innuendo is just a way to avoid putting forward an idea which, when stated plainly, is just bad. Without more data I'll just have to wait and see.

Once again, making passive-aggressive comments towards me and ignoring anything I have to say that doesn't agree with your views. KC, at least you have to acknowledge that I try my best to be kind and genuinely try to understand where the other person is coming from.

Although to be honest, the fact that you dismissed my example just because it's happening to a larger group and not a minority is a little concerning. If something is bad, it's bad no matter who it is aimed at; minority, or majority. That was my point. It doesn't come across as very genuine when you defend one group from a particular kind of behavior, but not the other simply because they aren't a minority or you don't support their views. At that point, you're contributing to the problem.

I have zero idea what you're talking about.

You mentioned that you didn't understand why people didn't just leave the LGBT community alone. I responded with the fact that the LGBT community also does not leave others alone, and as long as they're asking something of me--they're involving me in the situation and I have grounds to give an opinion.

I'm sure the medical community is eager to peer review the work you've been doing on alternatives during your career in the field.

Is the sarcasm necessary? Is it simply unbearable that I care about everyone's well being, and not just a certain group? Or that I don't mindlessly follow whatever is fed to me? Obviously I can't just jump into the medical field and develop a cure for GD overnight; but what I can do is try to bring awareness to both sides and get some attention on the concept that we should be looking to explore alternatives to extreme surgeries and social distress.

As I told you in the other thread; if you're set on your way of thinking and have no interest in an open-minded discussion, I have no desire nor benefit in talking to you.

 

[Carl Emerson]

facts usually are predictable

and he would rebuke those presenting false witness about LGBT's

We can agree on that...

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

Gender dysphoria is the anxiety and distress a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity and their physical gender/appearance. When one's physical appearance is altered cosmetically to conform to the internalized gender image the distress goes away.

Except what you're missing is that studies show that transgender people actually have brains that structurally(and at times functionally)resembled the brain of the opposite sex. Also, you liken gender dysphoria to anxiety, which is a mental disorder...then say that surgery alleviates the disorder, when not too long ago you said that surgery doesn't affect mental illness(which is synonymous to mental disorder). Which is it?

you said: "If nothing was being forced of me, I would not mind the community as much." but you are now saying nothing is being forced on you

Let me clarify; nothing is being forced on me right now, because I haven't GIVEN anyone a reason to force anything on me; I comply and keep everything to myself, and don't question anyone openly unless it is in private with close friends. However, if you twisted my arm and asked me to answer honestly whether or not I felt socially threatened to publically share any of my opinions on trans/lgbt issues for fear of being harassed or losing my job; I would say absolutely 100% yes. I agonize over it quite often, actually, because I feel like I have to put on a 'mask' so nobody comes at me for having a different view.

not a disorder because there is no evidence at all to suggest it is.

All of the symptoms of it match that of a disorder. If it wasn't a disorder, transgender people would be nothing but a bunch of very advanced cross-dressers who actually don't feel distressed by being in their own body.

all the evidence shows that it is inborn. and genetics is only one part of being inborn.

The very definition of being 'inborn' is traits that are acquired before birth. Genetics determines the majority of what 'traits' we're born with, so I'm very confused as to why you'd claim this. Furthermore, as I said, we've only managed to prove that the existence of a 'gay gene' only includes factors that have around a 25% effect on people. Would you find the argument for gay rights less convincing if it WASN'T genetic?

like how they do with other minorities?

Minorites, majorities and everything in-between; everyone is a victim of this. I wouldn't be surprised if a boy fell on the street off of his bike, and some politicians started a war over it to push some agenda, honestly. Larger numbers won't make you any less of a 'sheeple'.

in response to the extremely hateful religious conservatives (not all of them of course) who have spent decades lying, attacking and demonizing the LGBT community claiming everything from demonic possession to spiritual sickness to an inability to love to claims about being pedophiles, murderers, diseased and bent on harassing everyone possible.

Well, for one the early movement was absolutely aligned with pedophilia at one point. I believe a very popular was sometime between the 70's-90's, in germany i think? Essentially the LGBT community hesitantly sided with pedophiles, can't remember what the reason was. And of course, since the LGBT community hasn't set up stricter guidelines for what they consider to be morally 'correct', pedophiles are popping out of the woodwork now more than ever demanding for the same respect. (A quick google search for 'MAPs on twitter' will inform you of this). Of course, I'm not saying LGBT people are pedophiles themselves; but with a track record like that, you can at least understand why some people could get that impression, especially when talking about it starts such a fierce defensive debate. And HIV is extremely common among the community, so that wasn't exactly a lie either.

Furthermore, it would also depend on what you consider 'hateful'. You and I can both agree that claiming someone is 'demonically possessed' is incredibly out of line especially for Christians, however, I'd say that this is likely a smaller percentage of religious folk seeing as I never, ever hear about those people in a positive light even from other Christians. Although what I've observed, something as neutral as simply having the audacity to question the community's validity in their claims or deciding to reject certain non-essential services due to religious beliefs(such as catering a wedding)is also considered, unfairly, by a number of LGBT folk to be 'hateful'.

Long story short; your statement is painting a large group with a very wide brush, and is not a valid argument.

post #4

I actually didn't see this. Not to be rude, but I haven't been keeping up with Carl's responses as I do not find them very 'fresh' in regards to the topic.

making the same claims about any other minority that are made about LGBT's would be considered hate,

The only claims being made in this thread is that trans people have a disorder that is not being treated very well socially or medically, and it needs to be fixed. Unless you see being black or handicapped as a disorder, that's completely irrelevant for you to say. (that was hyperbole; of course I don't think you actually see being black or handicapped as a disorder)


I'm starting to get the feeling you're also not here for an open discussion, are you? Because just like with KC, I will start ignoring you if you cannot have a fair conversation about this without all of the political jargon that, if I may add, may or may not even be how you describe. I don't want to be rude, but I only have so much time to discuss these things with people and I'd rather do it with those who are a tad more open-minded and less 'on the attack'.

 

[Quartermaine]

You mentioned that you didn't understand why people didn't just leave the LGBT community alone. I responded with the fact that the LGBT community also does not leave others alone, and as long as they're asking something of me--they're involving me in the situation and I have grounds to give an opinion.

what are you being asked for?

 

[Quartermaine]

We can agree on that...

and yet you persist

 

[Quartermaine]

Except what you're missing is that studies show that transgender people actually have brains that structurally(and at times functionally)resembled the brain of the opposite sex. Also, you liken gender dysphoria to anxiety, which is a mental disorder...then say that surgery alleviates the disorder, when not too long ago you said that surgery doesn't affect mental illness(which is synonymous to mental disorder). Which is it?

distress is a key component of gender dysphoria. specifically distress at mismatch between their gender identity and their physical gender/appearance. Plastic surgery alters the appearance to match the gender identity and there by removes the cause of the distress.

and my point is that being transsexual isn't a mental illness because the distress is fixed by plastic surgery.

Let me clarify; nothing is being forced on me right now, because I haven't GIVEN anyone a reason to force anything on me; I comply and keep everything to myself, and don't question anyone openly unless it is in private with close friends. However, if you twisted my arm and asked me to answer honestly whether or not I felt socially threatened to publically share any of my opinions on trans/lgbt issues for fear of being harassed or losing my job; I would say absolutely 100% yes. I agonize over it quite often, actually, because I feel like I have to put on a 'mask' so nobody comes at me for having a different view.

do you fear beign harassed or loosing your job for sharing your opinions on African American's?

All of the symptoms of it match that of a disorder. If it wasn't a disorder, transgender people would be nothing but a bunch of very advanced cross-dressers who actually don't feel distressed by being in their own body.

false. the first really the only criteria for something to be a mental disorder is observable dysfunction on several ares, work/school, social interaction, interpersonal life, self care and so on and that dysfunction is the result of the mental illness.

The very definition of being 'inborn' is traits that are acquired before birth. Genetics determines the majority of what 'traits' we're born with, so I'm very confused as to why you'd claim this. Furthermore, as I said, we've only managed to prove that the existence of a 'gay gene' only includes factors that have around a 25% effect on people. Would you find the argument for gay rights less convincing if it WASN'T genetic?

epigenetics contributes as much if not more to any inborn trait than genetics itself.

as for the study you are referring to. if memory serves that study looked at a small handful of linked traits. it certainly isn't exhaustive and there is some question about the linkage of the traits to homosexuality.

Minorites, majorities and everything in-between; everyone is a victim of this. I wouldn't be surprised if a boy fell on the street off of his bike, and some politicians started a war over it to push some agenda, honestly. Larger numbers won't make you any less of a 'sheeple'.

how did you move from "corporations by cashing in on merch sales during pride month and attempting to gain viewership for media by being extra 'inclusive' with its cast." to this?

Well, for one the early movement was absolutely aligned with pedophilia at one point. I believe a very popular was sometime between the 70's-90's, in germany i think? Essentially the LGBT community hesitantly sided with pedophiles, can't remember what the reason was. And of course, since the LGBT community hasn't set up stricter guidelines for what they consider to be morally 'correct', pedophiles are popping out of the woodwork now more than ever demanding for the same respect.

wow.

this is so sick and twisted i don't even know how or where to start.

(A quick google search for 'MAPs on twitter' will inform you of this). Of course, I'm not saying LGBT people are pedophiles themselves; but with a track record like that, you can at least understand why some people could get that impression, especially when talking about it starts such a fierce defensive debate.

no i don't see any reasonable person can get such an impression. you aren't saying ti directly but you are sure working hard to make a false connection between a minority and people who harm children.

And HIV is extremely common among the community, so that wasn't exactly a lie either.

the majority of known HIV cases are found in women and children under the age of 14.

HIV is extremely common in people of African decent. does that fact justify racism?

Shall we talk about the long standing claims of the religious right that homosexuals have a life expectancy of 42 years? that homosexuals on average contract a sexual transmitted disease over 80 time in their life? That homosexuals have higher rates of cancer? That they are mentally ?

Furthermore, it would also depend on what you consider 'hateful'. You and I can both agree that claiming someone is 'demonically possessed' is incredibly out of line especially for Christians, however, I'd say that this is likely a smaller percentage of religious folk seeing as I never, ever hear about those people in a positive light even from other Christians. Although what I've observed, something as neutral as simply having the audacity to question the community's validity in their claims or deciding to reject certain non-essential services due to religious beliefs(such as catering a wedding)is also considered, unfairly, by a number of LGBT folk to be 'hateful'.

so a generation ago when segregation was the law the black people who protested such treatment were hateful?

Long story short; your statement is painting a large group with a very wide brush, and is not a valid argument.

tell us again how homosexuals are aligned with pedophiles

I actually didn't see this. Not to be rude, but I haven't been keeping up with Carl's responses as I do not find them very 'fresh' in regards to the topic.



The only claims being made in this thread is that trans people have a disorder that is not being treated very well socially or medically, and it needs to be fixed.

in whos opinion?

Unless you see being black or handicapped as a disorder, that's completely irrelevant for you to say. (that was hyperbole; of course I don't think you actually see being black or handicapped as a disorder)

its a standard trope among racist to view black people as inferior both physically and mentally. So...it's relevant

I'm starting to get the feeling you're also not here for an open discussion, are you? Because just like with KC, I will start ignoring you if you cannot have a fair conversation about this without all of the political jargon that, if I may add, may or may not even be how you describe. I don't want to be rude, but I only have so much time to discuss these things with people and I'd rather do it with those who are a tad more open-minded and less 'on the attack'.

tell us again about pedophiles and the spread of HIV

 

[Carl Emerson]

and yet you persist

Well, I wont be the one being rebuked...

Why not answer the question ???

If Jesus was to walk in today's streets would He heal a trans?

 

[Strathos]

Respectful? Probably. But again, using atheists as an analogy; can you imagine how atheists would feel if they had to act as though God were real, or forced to say things such as 'God Bless' or 'Praise Jesus' when they don't agree with Christianity? Respect goes both ways--it's respectful if people refer to others as their preferred pronouns, but it is also respectful to not force anyone to do so and to understand when someone doesn't do so based on personal beliefs and ideologies.

When we have non-Christians over for dinner, they typically have no problem respectfully bowing their heads and closing their eyes while we say Grace.

 

[jacks]

"...distress is a key component of gender dysphoria. specifically distress at mismatch between their gender identity and their physical gender/appearance. Plastic surgery alters the appearance to match the gender identity and there by removes the cause of the distress."

This is something I have never understood. When I look inward at myself, I don't think "I'm a man." Rather I'm just who I am. If I was in a women's body, I might think I'm a bit "butch" in my tastes and preferences, but it wouldn't occur to me to think, "I'm a man trapped in a women's body." In other words, who I am isn't really about gender at all. I'm just me.