Thoughts on the Nicene Creed?

Jake Arsenal

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I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I am hoping to spark a discussion about the origins of the phrase in red.
 
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Jeshu

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i think that John 14 shows us that in Spirit of Jesus and The Spirit Father are One and the same Spirit and that the arrival of the Spirit will bring The whole Godhead, Father, Son and Spirit into our hearts.

John 14:11-20
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

John 14:23
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
 
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St_Worm2

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I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I am hoping to spark a discussion about the origins of the phrase in red.
Ahh, the filioque. Hopefully some of our EO friends will drop by for the discussion. The filioque and the primacy of the Pope are two of the principle reasons for the schism (in 1054 AD) between what is now the EOC/OOC and the RCC, yes?

--David
 
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Tigger45

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I’ll recite the creed with or without the Filioque with the congregation I’m worshiping with. The only two that don’t recite the Filioque that I attend are an Antiochian parish and ACNA parish.
 
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St_Worm2

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A friend and former CF member (he was a theologian and a senior pastor) wrote a short article in support of the Protestant/Roman Catholic view. As I said in my last post, hopefully our EO friends will drop by and give us the other side of the story. Here's what Patrick said. Enjoy :)

We are entering deep waters here of the mysteries of God, so let's approach the subject with much fear and trembling.

Think of the phrase, "In the unity of the Godhead."

Western theology begins at this point. One God possessing full Godhead.

I think using the word "source" opens up too many distractions based upon modern notions that require much qualifications to prevent misunderstandings. The Father is unbegotten. As such God the Father is the ever-flowing fountain of the divine essence. He communicates this essence to the Son. He with the Son communicates this essence to the Spirit. The communication is eternal. It did not happen one time and then stop.

The first communication is called begetting; the second communication is called procession. Call the communication whatever one pleases, it is the communication itself which is important. So we say the Father begets the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from Father and the Son. The begetting is also often termed generation. The procession is also sometimes called spiration.

Berkhof writes:

  • This procession of the Holy Spirit, briefly called spiration, is his personal property. Much of what was said respecting the generation of the Son also applies to the spiration of the Holy Spirit, and need not be repeated. The following points of distinction between the two may be noted, however:
    (1) Generation is the work of the Father only; spiration is the work of both the Father and the Son.
    (2) By generation the Son is enabled to take part in the work of spiration, but the Holy Spirit acquires no such power.
    (3) In logical order generation precedes spiration.

    It should be remembered, however, that all this implies no essential subordination of the Holy Spirit to the Son.

    In spiration as well as in generation there is a communication of the whole of the divine essence, so that the Holy Spirit is on an equality with the Father and the Son

    The doctrine of the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son is based on John 15:26, and on the fact that the Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ and of the Son, Romans 8:9; Galatians 4:6, and is sent by Christ into the world. Spiration may be defined as that eternal and necessary act of the first and second persons in the Trinity whereby they, within the divine Being, become the ground of the personal subsistence of the Holy Spirit, and put the third person in possession of the whole divine essence, without any division, alienation or change.

    When one begins with the unity of God these personal properties are the means by which Godhead is understood to belong to a distinct mode of subsistence within the undivided substance.
Altering the personal properties so as to deny the filioque (fill-ee-oh-qwee) serves to create a new "stream" (using the above analogy of "fountain").

Once the filioque is denied, there is now no longer one stream
--> Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

A second stream has been created
--> Father, Son; Father, Holy Spirit.

There is no longer an unity of three but two unities of two.

Accordingly, the unity of God is maintained in the western theological tradition by what is called the communication of Godhead begetting and procession. "Person" or "subsistence" depends on personal properties, i.e., properties which are unique to a person in relation to other persons. In the words of our Larger Catechism, there is something "proper" in these relations, that is, "divinely proper." To detract from any property of the Son in relation to the Holy Spirit is to make Him inferior to the Father.

The EO objection in relation to the Holy Spirit is removed by a simple acknowledgement that the unique person of the Holy Spirit also consists in a unique property, and that property is to proceed from the Father and the Son from all eternity.

If this were not accepted as the Holy Spirit's distinct property He would not be the third person of the Trinity but would be a second second person. This means He would be a second Son. His very name, Spirit, is suggestive of an altogether unique relation in union with Father and Son which nullifies the objection. The Holy Spirit is the person upon whom the communication of Godhead finally terminates. In this capacity the Spirit is Himself the bond of union and communion between Father and Son. Likewise, in the ad extra works (works outside the Goddhead) of the Trinity, this unique relation finds expression in His distinctive function in connection with the creation of, providence over, and redemption of, the world He is the Spirit of life and communion.

AMR (a.k.a. Patrick)

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--David
 
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HTacianas

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I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I am hoping to spark a discussion about the origins of the phrase in red.

The origins of the phrase go way back. And there is theological support for the idea. But the Creed cannot be changed unless it is changed by an Ecumenical Council.
 
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SalemsConcordance

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I am a catechumen without knowledge, so I point you to a contemporary Saint who reposed in 1956, Saint Nikolai, the Chyrsostom of Serbia he is called. He has a very detailed writing on the Nicene Creed which may interest you, as it is linked in sections of the Creed.

On your particular section of interest
The Faith of Chosen People • St. Nikolai of Zica • Pravoslavieto.com
The Lord promised: "And I shall pray to the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; you know Him, for He dwells with you, and will be in you." (John 14:16-17). The first Comforter, the Lord Jesus, was more than ample comfort for the faithful. But the love of God knows no bounds. Through this boundless love even a second Comforter was sent.

Moreover, the Lord Jesus also bore witness concerning the Holy Spirit, when He said: "The Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you" (John 14:26). And again: "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me" (John 15:26). And again: "And when the Spirit of truth comes, He will lead you into all truth . . . He will gorify Me" (John 16:13-14). And this promise was fulfilled, like every other promise of your Messiah, O Christ-bearers.

The Holy Spirit was promised - thus men came to know of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit manifested Himself - thus men believed in the existence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit abides among the faithful-thus men have come to love God the Holy Spirit.

How is light begotten of the sun and how does warmth proceed from the sun-is this really known to you? How is a thought begotten of the heart and how does power proceed from the heart-have you really comprehended this? How then could you understand the eternal mystery of the unbegotten Father? How could you understand the begetting of the Son and the procession of the Holy Spirit? The sons of men were never able to grasp any truth about the Most High God, unless it was revealed to them by the Most High-neither more nor less-only to the extent that He revealed it to them.

It was revealed to us, that the Holy Spirit is not a creation of God but God. He is the Lord, the Giver of Life, whose presence creates life, gives strength, instills wisdom, produces joy. From the eternal Father He eternally proceeds. He is of the same essence as the Father, of the same essence as the Son-of the same essence of the same power, of the same glory. He differs only in respect to person. A special hypostasis distinguishes Him from the Father and the Son. But to Him also is due the same worship and the same glorification. The holy prophets spoke through Him. Into simple fishermen He poured the wisdom of heaven. To feeble men and women-martyred for Christ-He gives invincible strength, stronger than death.

The Holy Spirit, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, is true God of true God. He has revealed Himself - and has been active. He continues to reveal Himself and continues to be active. Those to whom He reveals Himself and in whom he is active know Him. They do not know Him in essence; they know Him through His revelation and activity.

Belief in the Holy Spirit of God is not based on supposition, on mental hypothesis, but on revealed, experienced, and witnessed reality. Whoever wishes to become a living witness of this reality, must make an effort to cleanse his heart of sin and cense it with prayer, before any probing of the heavenly mysteries. And the Holy Spirit will reveal Himself to him, the Spirit of truth and life, the Spirit of wisdom and joy, the Spirit of freedom and adoption. And this Holy Spirit will bear witness to his spirit, concerning the truthfulness of all Christ's revelation about God, about the soul, about the way of salvation, about the eternal kingdom of God. He will bear witness to it all, just as He did to the spirit of the apostles and the holy fathers who composed the Creed.


More info on St Nikolai.
St. Nikolai Velimirovich | Orthodox Christian Fellowship
 
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Pavel Mosko

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and the Son;

The filiquo goes back to the days of the Arian tribes living in Spain and France etc. but was added to the local version of the Nicene creed somewhere in Spain in AD 600 or so from what I recall. I'm a little rusty on the date, but I have had plenty of conversations over the years about the Creed and the filioque with Catholics, etc. Anyway it grew in popularity, to eventually be adopted in the West in the middle ages before the Great Schism. Anyway, The Arians in those places originally outlived their other Church counterparts by centuries, which was what motivated the creed's modification originally in Spain.
 
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SkyWriting

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And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
 
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The Liturgist

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The filiquo goes back to the days of the Arian tribes living in Spain and France etc. but was added to the local version of the Nicene creed somewhere in Spain in AD 600 or so from what I recall. I'm a little rusty on the date, but I have had plenty of conversations over the years about the Creed and the filioque with Catholics, etc. Anyway it grew in popularity, to eventually be adopted in the West in the middle ages before the Great Schism. Anyway, The Arians in those places originally outlived their other Church counterparts by centuries, which was what motivated the creed's modification originally in Spain.

Just to be clear, since your post is ambiguous, the Arians of Visigothic ethnicity in Hispania, North Africa, and Asia Minor did survive until the arrival of Islam, to which they converted probably between 680 and 750. In Ravenna, in Italy, we see the Orthodox Baptistry and the Arian Baptistry, the latter the only surviving Arian religious building, built during a time when the Ostrogothic conquerors of Italia were largely Arian. But miraculously, the combined forces of the Roman and Byzantine Churches did manage to convert them.

However, the filioque is much older, tracing back to various Patristic remarks in the fourth century, but as a clause in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, the earliest text to mention it is the Acts of the First Synod of Toledo, but this might be spurious. We do know that during the Monothelite controversy, the Monothelite Patriarch of Constantinople attacked his Roman counterpart for using it, and was criticized for this, among other things, by St. Maximus the Confessor. However, I find myself unable to dismiss the later concerns raised by St. Photius and St. Mark of Ephesus (who, together with the laity, saved the Eastern Orthodox Church as an autocephalous entity, with the knowledge that saving the church would come with the terrible price of Turkocratia, so that was a particularly heroic decision, which contributed to the preservation of Christianity as a whole, by emboldening the early crypto-Orthodox proto-Moravians under St. Jan Hus, whose actions in turn emboldened the later Protestant Reformers, whose actions prompted the Counter Reformation; the cleansing of the Roman Church from the extreme corruption which could have disunified Western Europe combined with the horror of Western Europeans at the fall of Constantinople and a desire to prevent the same happening in Western Europe doubtless helped to encourage the completion of the Reconquista in Spain, the naval victory at Loretto, and finally the Relief of Vienna in the late 17th century, when the Hapsburgs, aided by the Poles and other allies who seemed miraculously to come out of the woodwork, saved the besieged Austrian capital and forced the Turks to retreat to Hungary, from which they were in turn driven back to Roumelia, and eventually, by the turn of the 20th century, only a tiny fragment of Turkey exists West of the Bosphorus.

By the way, I have in my copy of the Jordanville Psalter a version of the psuedepigraphical Athanasian Creed better referred to as Quincunque Vult, devoid of the Filioque, which according to Kallistos Ware is commonly printed in Greek Orthodox service books (specifically, Horologia; I don’t know why considering that unlike in the West where there is a liturgical association between Quincunque Vult and Prime, in the East, the creed is not specified for use in any services). The Orthodox make use, in their liturgy, only of the Nicene Creed, although I have never heard or read any criticism of the Apostles Creed or the Orthodox version of Quincunque Vult from Orthodox sources. So as to why they only use one of the three ancient creeds in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian churches, I have no idea.

For my part, out of respect to the Orthodox, I am inclined to regard the filioque as suspect; even the Roman Catholic Church, according to some sources, considers it erroneous if used in the Greek language, and indeed it is not used in any of the Byzantine Rite Sui Juris churches, although I believe at one time it was used in the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, which of the Byzantine Catholic churches, is known to have been the most Latinized.

As a possible long-term ecumenical solution, I believe serious consideration should be given to the question of why the filioque would be acceptable in Latin but not Greek.

*I think Aromanian is still spoken; if not, if it has gone the way of the Dalmatian language, that would be an embarrassing mistake.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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The main objection is that the filioque combines the Father and the Son into one source which from our POV gets close to the heresy of Sabellianism or modelism.

When the Counselor comes, the One I will send to you from the Father the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father–He will testify about Me. (John 15:26 HCSB).

I don't think the Council of Toledo ever thought that a few hundred years this would begin the split between East and West and I kind of empathize with their solution to the problem.

Charlemagne, who was stirring up the political pot as the "Emperor", which the East said, "We already have one of those", was also trying to declare the East heretical for NOT including the filioque. So I lay part of the blame on him.

There's a good discussion on this at Filioque - OrthodoxWiki
 
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Andrewn

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The filiquo goes back to the days of the Arian tribes living in Spain and France etc. but was added to the local version of the Nicene creed somewhere in Spain in AD 600 or so from what I recall.
"The Filioque was inserted into the Creed as an anti-Arian addition, by the Third Council of Toledo (589), at which King Reccared I and some Arians in his Visigothic Kingdom converted to orthodox, Catholic Christianity."

"From the view of the West, the Eastern rejection of the Filioque denied the consubstantiality of the Father and the Son and was thus a form of crypto-Arianism."

<i>Filioque</i>

The Creed used in Anglican churches does not include the Filioque, but I think that basis for this exclusion is historical rather than theological.

The Nicene Creed - The Anglican Church of Canada

IMHO, discussion about the Filioque is pointless and the procession of the Holy Spirit is unknowable and the Roman Catholic Church allows Eastern Rite churches to exclude the Filioque.
 
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The Liturgist

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By the way, if I might take us on a slight tangent; the fact that the eight major indigenous categories of Eastern churches* (Eastern Orthodox, EO Old Calendarist, Russian Old Believer, Russian Priestless Old Believer, Oriental Orthodox, Maronite Catholic**, Assyrian Church of the East, Ancient Churchnof the East) use the only Nicene creed in the context of their liturgies is of some interest to me, particularly given the aforementioned printing of Quincunque Vult in Russian psalters and Greek service books, particularly given the lack of any assertions of defect in the Apostles’ Creed. This probably comes down to tradition; the Apostles’ Creed is believed to have been adapted from an ancient Roman baptismal liturgy.

There is one particularly powerful creedal hymn of probable Oriental Orthodox origin, Ho Monogenes (various Eastern Orthodox authors have been proposed, but the prominence of this creed in the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, where it is sung as an introit or initial hymn, as the curtain is pulled back following the Preparatory Service, which is chanted aloud (unlike in the Byzantine Rite) following Morning Prayers, to me strongly confirms the well established theory that this hymn was authored by St. Severus of Antioch, and was included in the Byzantine Synaxis by St. Justinian in the course of his considerable yet ill-fated efforts to facilitate EO-OO reunification.

This hymn has the interesting effect of, in combination with the Nicene Creed, excluding most major Christological heresies, including Eutychianism (Monophysitism, the heresy the OO have long been accused of but which have anathematized since before the actual EO-OO schism began at Chalcedon), Nestorianism, Apollinarianism, Adoptionism, Arianism, Sabellianism, Alogianism, “Process Theology”, Soccinianism, Docetism and, I think, Monothelitism (although considering the Monothelites did not think to delete it from their liturgies, perhaps not).

Quincunque Vult is also an extremely powerful creed, which demands recognition of the Holy Trinity explicitly, and links acceptance of this doctrine with salvation, which doubtless explains why the more mainstream Anglican churches use it much less frequently than was once the case; there is also the problem of poor Trinitarian catechesis. Most mainline Protestant churches, and a large number of evangelical megachurches, are not adequately teaching the doctrine of the Trinity. Certainly the one in which I was raised failed me; I nominally believed in the Trinity, because I knew it was something we believed in, and there was clearly something wrong with those churches which rejected it, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I did not understand the doctrine. When I finally learned what the Trinity was, I was overcome with a euphoric bliss, and several fears I had since early childhood about the implications of eternal life vanished.

The Apostle’s Creed strikes me as something that actually would fit into an Orthodox liturgy rather nicely, although it would also be completely superfluous given their liturgies explicitly affirm the two doctrines it stresses which the other creeds do not mention, namely, the Communion of the Saints, and the Harrowing of Hell.

The beautiful hymn Te Deum Laudamus is also a powerful creedal statement.

In addition, the Oriental Orthodox add the Theopaschite Clause attributed to St. Peter Fullo to the Trisagion Hymn; this was resisted by the Eastern Orthodox who interpret the Trisagion triadologically, whereas the Oriental Orthodox interpret it Christologically. This is an example of a classical interdenominational misunderstanding; to the Eastern Orthodox, the addition to what they regarded as a Trinitarian hymn of the Theopaschite Clause appeared to be Patripassian, a charge which must have bewildered and angered the Oriental Orthodox who understood the Trisagion in a purely Christological context (I have seen one liturgical text in which the Trisagion is sung thrice, once for the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, with the Theopaschite Clause replaced by a more appropriate verse for the Father and the Spirit, but I cannot remember where).

I particularly like the Eastern Orthodox practice of singing the Nicene Creed, and I would also argue that all hymns with doctrinal content have creedal characteristics, and that hymnody is the most powerful catechist, something the cunning Arius recognized; some of the earliest Christian hymn-writers were motivated to compose hymns in response to inane ditties Arius taught to sailors and merchants that contained the essence of his heretical doctrines; by teaching them to those whose profession entailed traversing the Roman Empire and journeying to foreign destinations by land and by sea, he effectively propagated his doctrines using a novel method which had until his time been impossible, because all these events happened only a few years after the legalization of Christianity in the Roman Empire.

One frustration that I share with LutheranSatire, much beloved of our friend @MarkRohfrietsch , is the vacuous and non-doctrinal nature of some Protestant chorales. Lutheran Satire primarily accuses the Anglicans of this, on the basis of Christmas carols such as In A Bleak Midwinter, although in all fairness to everyone, the hymns of Charles Wesley, which were mostly edited by John Wesley to ensure doctrinal correctness (as his brother was perhaps a better poet than theologian) are highly doctrinal. In general, when it comes to Protestant hymnals, I favor those which favor hymns which make a clear doctrinal point to those which instead are sentimental, and perhaps I am simply paranoid of recent mainline Christian hymnals, but I feel a trend has been in progress towards sentimental chorales over doctrinal chorales.

Rich doctrinal content, which is inherently creedal content, is something I love about the ancient hymns of St. Ambrose one finds in the legendary Old Hymnal, and the hymns and metrical homilies of St. Ephrem the Syrian and St. Jacob of Sarugh, and the spectacular Byzantine hymnography produced by the Studion Monastery and the Sabaite Monastery, which in turn led to the Roman Graduale, and adaptations of it such as Byrd’s Gradualia, the massive Eastern Orthodox hymnary which spans as many as 24 volumes, the exquisite Coptic Psalmody, and the splendid collection of Canticles in recent editions of the Book of Common Prayer.

John Wesley himself, following in the example of monastic writings in the Philokalia, which generally contain 150 texts, and the Orthodox canons, whose Odes are based on a set of nine Biblical Canticles, combining the theme of that canticle with the subject of liturgical commemoration (and also I would argue the Roman Rite’s Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the Officium Defunctorum, which are invariant offices which take the theme of the hours, and apply them in a Mariological and Eschatological context), included a Psalter in his Sunday Service Book for North America which contained those psalms he found most edifying, interspersed with the hymns of Charles Wesley. This was an elegant solution to the personal objection Wesley had to the use of imprecatory Psalms in worship.***

*Although indigenous to the East, I exclude the extinct Gnostic Paulicians, who converted to Orthodoxy although remain as an ethnic group in Armenia, Bulgaria and Romania, along with the smaller and more peculiar Raskol (schismatic) sects that resulted from the dreadful persecution of Russian liturgical traditionalists or Old Believers after the Nikonian liturgical form, the most noteworthy of which are the Molokans, whose beliefs are not unlike the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Doukhobors, who were basically Unitarians who regarded as canonical only the Sermon on the Mount; Leo Tolstoy financed their emigration to Western Canada, where they did make a nuisance of themselves following the passage of laws mandating public education, by protesting in the nude, which in turn led to the introduction of laws against indecent exposure, which prior to that point had not been necessary in British Columbia, Alberta or Saskatchewan. Both groups still exist, the former in California and the latter in the Pacific Northwest, in small numbers.

** I cite the Maronites but not other Eastern Catholics, because unlike the other Eastern Catholic churches, the Maronites separated from the Syriac Orthodox in a schism of a dogmatic nature (some allege they were Monothelites) and settled in the mountains of Lebanon, and there are no analogous Orthodox churches; all persons of the Maronite faith and ethnicity joined the Roman Catholic Church during the crusades. There are several specifically Maronite saints, such as St. Sharbel, and others who predate their schism with the Syriac Orthodox but are the subject of particular devotion among the Maronites, such as St. John Maron.

*** I prefer Wesley’s approach to that taken by the 1962 Canadian Book of Common Prayer, which edits the imprecatory Psalms to make them less offensive. However, I believe Wesley was in error; the imprecatory Psalms are only imprecatory if read in an Antiochene-literalist context, and these Psalms are, like many Psalms, parabolic, with a superficial esoteric meaning and a much richer exoteric meaning which becomes apparent with Alexandrian exegesis, and if read using the latter method, they cease to be imprecatory. It is a challenge for the Church at present to catechize the laity to understand these Psalms properly, but I feel this challenge is more worthwhile to pursue than attempting to sweep the issue under the rug. I should add there are portions of the Old Testament, and indeed portions of the Psalter itself, which are better suited for Antiochene-literalist exegesis, and in general the Cappadocian approach of using both seems ideal.
 
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The Liturgist

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"The Filioque was inserted into the Creed as an anti-Arian addition, by the Third Council of Toledo (589), at which King Reccared I and some Arians in his Visigothic Kingdom converted to orthodox, Catholic Christianity."

"From the view of the West, the Eastern rejection of the Filioque denied the consubstantiality of the Father and the Son and was thus a form of crypto-Arianism."

<i>Filioque</i>

The Creed used in Anglican churches does not include the Filioque, but I think that basis for this exclusion is historical rather than theological.

The Nicene Creed - The Anglican Church of Canada

IMHO, discussion about the Filioque is pointless and the procession of the Holy Spirit is unknowable.

Some Anglican churches do include the Filioque, actually. Specifically, it is in all the editions of the Book of Common Prayer used by the Church of England, the Episcopal Church USA, for example the 1979 BCP, and indeed every other traditional BCP edition I am aware of, such as the 1926 Irish BCP, the 1929 Scottish BCP, and the 1962 Canadian BCP. It has been made optional and perhaps removed from some newer Anglican service books, and indeed there has been a movement to delete it active for some time, related to the Fellowship of St. Alban and St. Sergius.
 
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"The Filioque was inserted into the Creed as an anti-Arian addition, by the Third Council of Toledo (589), at which King Reccared I and some Arians in his Visigothic Kingdom converted to orthodox, Catholic Christianity."

"From the view of the West, the Eastern rejection of the Filioque denied the consubstantiality of the Father and the Son and was thus a form of crypto-Arianism."

<i>Filioque</i>

The Creed used in Anglican churches does not include the Filioque, but I think that basis for this exclusion is historical rather than theological.

The Nicene Creed - The Anglican Church of Canada

IMHO, discussion about the Filioque is pointless and the procession of the Holy Spirit is unknowable and the Roman Catholic Church allows Eastern Rite churches to exclude the Filioque.

So, as a matter of fact, the Book of Alternative Services of the Anglican Church of Canada, as well as the 1982 Communion Service of the Scottish Episcopal Church, do omit the filioque. However, Common Worship, the modern supplement to the 1662 BCP in the Church of England, does have the filioque, as does the 2004 BCP edition of the Church of Ireland. In addition, all of the older communion services of the Church of Scotland, as well as the 1929 Scottish BCP, and the 1962 Book of Common Prayer of the Anglican Church of Canada, which is still hypothetically the normative liturgy, since the newer prayerbook, despite being used predominantly, is still labelled as “Alternative,” and despite the copyright for the 1962 Canadian BCP being given to the Prayer Book Society of Canada, does have the Filioque. So @Andrewn it is a hypothetical possibility that you could attend a service in a traditional BCP-using parish in the Anglican Church of Canada and hear the Filioque, and the ACNA also has a few parishes north of the border I think (I heard about one in the area of Vancouver). And in the Church of England, which is still arguably the most important Anglican church, you will hear the Filioque, and you will also hear it in most parishes of the Episcopal Church, which at one time was the most important church in the United States, having produced more US Presidents than any other denomination. But there is a Drop the Filioque movement.

One thing that would frustrate me would be if suppressing the filioque came to be associated with the more liberal or innovative Anglican churches, because the main reason for doing it as I see it is out of respect for the Orthodox churches and their theological arguments, and the Orthodox churches are the most conservative in the world, extremely suspicious of change.
 
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seeking.IAM

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Some Anglican churches do include the Filioque, actually. Specifically, it is in all the editions of the Book of Common Prayer used by the Church of England, the Episcopal Church USA, for example the 1979 BCP, ...

The Episcopal Church (U.S.A.) has already decided the Filioque will not be included in its next prayer book revision. Of course, no telliing when that will be. It was decided at the General Convention in 1994.
 
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Jake Arsenal

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IMHO, discussion about the Filioque is pointless and the procession of the Holy Spirit is unknowable and the Roman Catholic Church allows Eastern Rite churches to exclude the Filioque.

Arguments may be pointless, but discussion is intended to promote understanding.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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extremely suspicious of change.

WHO SAID THAT!?!?!? Lights up a candle to look around because flashlights are modernist ecumenical heresies...

Oh as for the Apostles Creed, I vaguely remember seeing that it is recognized as the Old Roman Baptismal creed or something along those lines. There's no objections to it, just that it isnt used by us. I think the same goes for the Athanasian Creed, minus the filioque.

My liturgics professor at seminary basically said that there used to be more liturgical flexibility until the printing press came around.
 
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