Thoughts on End Times Theology

[CrusaderKing]

There are those out there that assume that because I'm a Christian, I automatically accept views on the end times that televangelists and others that frequently remind their followers. This could not be further from the truth. Dispensationalism is likely singularly responsible for the rise of Christian Zionism. Pre-tribulationalism (popularized by the Left Behind series) and post-tribulation are simply different views on what believers consider to be the timing of the rapture. However, both views are based on dispensationalism and ultimately wrong in themselves.


Lack of Scriptural Support for End Times Theology


Many in the Christian community at large would tell you that there is a scriptural support for their views, but these usually come from passages from scripture that are taken out of context. The wikipedia article lists a few verses that ultimately fall apart when read in the larger context.


1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1 Corinthians 15 speaks not only on the Resurrection of Christ, but of the resurrection of the dead i.e. the spirit. Thus, it is rather premature to call this an example of the rapture without reading the chapter. The Resurrection is one of the cornerstones of the Christian faith, as is the resurrection of the dead. In this chapter, St. Paul reminds his followers of this and warns them against sin. Righteous behavior is rewarded (again, nothing new if you read the Gospels). Resurrection is a mystery unto itself (Christ's Resurrection being the first glorious mystery of the rosary) and it is the response to our internal struggles in life that ultimately decides our fate.


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. The we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.


This seems straight out of an end times handbook. The problem with their interpretation is that it couldn't be further from what St. Paul intended the message to be. Add verses 13-14 in there and it suddenly makes more sense. St. Paul is saying that those who have died in Christ before them did not die in vain. Being that this is the tail end of chapter 4, chapter 5 speaks of vigilance. What you should essentially get from reading 1 Thessalonians is the scout's motto: be prepared. You could die at any time, so putting off leading a holy life until you are older isn't the best choice. To a Catholic, dying in a state of unrepentant mortal sin can only lead to one outcome.


Phillipians 3:21
He will change our lowly body to conform with his glorified body by the power that enables him also to bring all things into subjection to himself.


Phillipians 3:17-21 speaks of imitating Christ in your life. It ultimately is a philosophy opposed to the idea of not imitating Christ. Since the whole chapter speaks of righteousness, I fail to see how this could be used as a sign of the rapture.


John 14:2-3
In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.


Here's where at first glance, end times proponents seem to have a point. However, this is still shaky interpretation. Upon further reading of the chapter, you get to verse 6 (not that much further down either):


Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”


And keep reading. It should hammer in the point that Jesus is speaking of Himself as the Savior leading us to the Kingdom of Heaven through Him. Of course, Jesus had to be crucified first, but you get the point. The end times position just doesn't hold water.


Misrepresented Prophecies of the Book of Daniel


Matthew 24:29-36
Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that the summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. But of the day and hour, no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.


I know this isn't the Book of Daniel, but this one is used quite a bit. Going back to Matthew 24:15, Jesus speaks of the abomination mentioned by Daniel the prophet. But what exactly was Daniel referring to? To get a better understanding, we'll have to tackle the wider scriptures.


1 Maccabees 1:54


On the fifteenth day of the month of Chislev, in the year one hundred and forty-five, the king erected the horrible abomination upon the altar of holocausts, and in the surrounding cities of Judah they built pagan altars.


This passage refers to the actions of King Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who desecrated the temple.


Daniel 12:11


From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the horrible abomination is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.


Feel free to cite 1 Maccabees the next time someone tries to use this passage with the wrong intention. Daniel's prophecy is referring to King Antiochus IV Epiphanes, not the Antichrist. It stands clear that the Messiah, the Son of Man, would have to come into the world as a response to oppression. By taking a look at the history of Palestine, one finds that many different rulers have taken control of the land. Alexander the Great was responsible for the spread of Hellenism through much of the world. King Antiochus was simply attempting to Hellenize the Jews. That did not work out very well.


Jesus spoke of a time to come, but it was already upon the world. The temple would be destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. The Apostolic generation would pass away after this with the death of John, the beloved disciple.


Daniel 7:78


After this, in the visions of the night I saw the fourth beast, different from all the others, terrifying, horrible, and of extraordinary strength; it had great iron teeth with which it devoured and crushed, and what was left it trampled with its feet. I was considering the ten horns it had, when suddenly another, a little horn, sprang out of their midst, and three of the previous horns were torn away to make room for it. This horn had eyes like a man, and a mouth that spoke arrogantly.


The fourth beast is a reference to Alexander the Great, who crushed the mighty Persian Empire. The ten horns represent the ten kings of the Seleucid dynasty. And who was the little horn? King Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the worst of the Seleucid kings, who usurped the throne.


Read more and you get to Daniel 7:23-25, which describes the scenario.


He answered me thus:


“The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, different from all the others; It shall devour the whole earth, beat it down, and crush it. The ten horns shall be ten kings rising out of that kingdom; another shall rise up after them, different from those before him, who shall lay low three kings. He shall speak against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High, thinking to change the feast days and the law. They shall be handed over to him for a year, two years, and a half-year.”


The persecutions of Antiochus IV are chronicled in 1 Maccabees, confirming that the prophecy in Daniel about the little horn referred to him, not the Antichrist. I'd go into Daniel 8, but it simply reiterates the vision in Daniel 7.


Concerning the Antichrist


This term conjures up fear in believers and it should. But the word Antichrist simply means “instead of Christ.” Thus, being against Christ ultimately makes you an Antichrist. The opposition to Christ is not bound up in a single being, but all have the potential to be Antichrists. In the early church, Gnosticism and Arianism sprung up. St. Paul referred to false gospels in Galatians. These are works or ideas that lead people astray from the true faith. The word Antichrist appears in the Epistles of St. John.


1 John 2:18-22

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. This desertion shows that none of them was of our number. But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, and you have all the knowledge. I write to you not because you do not know the truth, but because you do, and every lie is alien to the truth. Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.


This hammers my point home. Pretty much anyone can be an Antichrist.


1 John 4:1-3


Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the spirit of God; every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, as you heard, is to come, but is in fact already in the world.


Take into account when this was written and extrapolate into the present day. It's a bit of a stretch to imagine a single entity in the flesh to live that long. Those who do not speak the divine truth are not of Christ. In this case, St. John is speaking of those who don't speak the truth.


2 John 7


Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh; such is the deceitful one and the antichrist.


Again, St. John hammers at those not speaking the truth.


2 Thessalonians 2:3-5


Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship so as to seat himself in the temple of God, claiming that he is a god – do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things?


This is another reference to the prophecies in Daniel that some mistakingly associate to be the Antichrist. Refer back to Daniel 7:23-25. Also:


Daniel 8:9-12


Out of one of them came a little horn which ketp growing toward the south, the east, and the glorious country. Its power extended to the host of heaven, so that it cast down to earth some of the host and some of the stars and trampled on them. It boasted even against the prince of the host, from whom it removed the daily sacrifice, and whose sanctuary it cast down, as well as the host, while sin replaced the daily sacrifice. It cast truth to the ground, and was succeeding in its undertaking.


Daniel 9:27


For one week he shall make a firm compact with the many; half the week he shall abolish sacrifice and oblation; on the temple wing shall be the horrible abomination until the ruin that is decreed is poured out upon the horror.


Daniel 11:36-37


The king shall do as he pleases, exalting himself and making himself greater than any god; he shall utter dreadful blasphemies against the God of gods. He shall prosper only till divine wrath is ready, for what is determined must take place. He shall have no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one in whom women delight; for no god shall he have regard, because he shall make himself greater than all.


Daniel 12:11


From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the horrible abomination is set up, there shall be one thousand, two hundred and ninety days.


Again, this is all talking about Antiochus IV, not the Antichrist. St. Paul was reminding the Thessalonians of this in his letter.


St. Paul and St. John were doing nothing different from what Jesus warned them about.


Matthew 24:23-24


If anyone says to you then, “Look, here is the Messiah!” or, “There he is!” do not believe it. False messiahs and false prophets will arise, and they will perform signs and do wonders so great as to deceive, if that were possible, even the elect.


[Continued in the next post]

 

[CrusaderKing]

Book of Revelation Understood


I saved this one for last because I'm sure there are plenty of questions on this book. What were the horrors in this book referring to? Could this really lend credence to end times theology? The answer to the latter question is the Book of Revelation is not referring to the end times. That said, the former question can be addressed.


Is the Antichrist mentioned in Revelation? Not as many have come to understand the Antichrist. But are there Antichrists depicted in Revelation? Absolutely. In the early church, persecution was very common. St. Peter and St. Paul both met their deaths in Rome during Emperor Nero's persecution of Christians. In the first century, many were martyred.


So what is the message of Revelation?


Revelation 13:16-18


It forced all the people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to be given a stamped image on their right hands or their foreheads, so that no one could buy or sell except one who had the stamped image of the beast's name or the number that stood for its name. Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number that stands for a person. His number is six hundred and sixty-six.


Far from credit cards and bar codes, this passage harks back to Nero's reign. The Greek form of his name in Hebrew letters gives the required sum. However, the Latin form gives the sum 616, which is where you get the other number of the beast. Nero persecuted Christians without remorse. In the Roman Empire, Christians were considered enemies of the state and could be executed because they refused to worship the emperor as a god. So you see where the other part of the passage comes from.


Revelation 17:7-14


The angel said to me, “Why are you amazed? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, the beast with the seven heads and the ten horns. The beast that you saw existed once, but now exists no longer. It will come up from the abyss and is headed for destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world shall be amazed when they see the beast, because it existed once but exists no longer, and yet it will come again. Here is a clue for one who has wisdom. The seven heads represent the seven hills upon which the woman sits. They also represent seven kings: five have already fallen, one still lives, and the last has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a short while. The beast that existed once but exists no longer is an eighty king, but really belongs to the seven and is headed for destruction. The ten horns that you saw represent ten kings who have not yet been crowned; they will receive royal authority along with the beast for one hour. They are of one mind and will give their power and authority to the beast. They will fight with the Lamb, but the Lamb will conquer them, for he is the Lord of lords and the king of kings, and those with him are called, chosen, and faithful.”


Again, we're taken back to Rome. The seven hills represent Rome, which was built on seven hills. The beast that will come again is a reference to the dead Nero returning to power. However, this need not be taken literally. Later emperors persecuted Christians just as Nero did. However, Christianity eventually conquered the Roman Empire despite being persecuted.


Revelation 18:1-3


After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth became illumined by his splendor. He cried out in a mighty voice: “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great. She has become a haunt for demons. She is a cage for every unclean spirit, a cage for every unclean bird, [a cage for every unclean] and disgusting [beast]. For all the nations have drunk the wine of her licentious passion. The kings of the earth had intercourse with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her drive for luxury”


Babylon in this case refers to Rome. This can be referenced to 1 Peter 5:13.


The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son.


The fall of Rome was what Revelation was referring to and the triumph of Christ's church on this world. But what of the references to great battles fought in Revelation?


Revelation 12:7-9


Then war broke out in heave; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it.


This is a reference to something that already happened. This is the war in heaven everyone talks about. St. Michael triumphed over Satan and he was cast out. We are reminded of the prayer to St. Michael.


St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do you, o prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, cast into hell Satan and the other evil spirits who prowl throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.


Revelation 19:11


Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was [called] “Faithful and True.” He judges and wages war in righteousness.


This is a reference to Jesus Christ fighting against evil. The coming of Jesus Christ is important in the next chapter.


Revelation 20:1-3


Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss and a heavy chain. He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, and tied it up for a thousand years and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the thousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time.


Satan is dealt a mighty blow, but he isn't completely eliminated. The thousand years are not meant to be taken literally, but the chaining of Satan represents Christ's victory over sin and death. Revelation 20:4-6 describes the outcome of Christ's victory over death, which is our salvation. But as we have seen and will see, Satan is still a factor.


Revelation 20:7-10


When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. They invaded the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and their beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


This is a symbolic battle. The breadth of the earth refers to Palestine and the beloved city is Jerusalem. Gog and Magog represent the pagan nations of the world. However, a deeper meaning to this passage can describe how Satan and his minions keep us under siege with temptation to sin, but through the light of Christ, we can resist Satan's temptations. In a sense, we are telling Satan to go back to hell and leave us alone.


Revelation 21:9


One of the seven angels who held the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come here. I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”


This is a reference to Christ's church. The chapter later goes on to describe the new Jerusalem, which is essentially the church.


Conclusions


Though the lack of apparent scriptural support for end times theology is apparent, many people continue to misread these prophecies. These prophecies have already been fulfilled and any attempts to fit prophecy into modern events ultimately fails. Rather, be prepared for the end of your earthly pilgrimage because you do not know the day or the hour the Lord will summon you to Him. You will have to account for the gift He has given you.

 

[BrightCandle]

Book of Revelation Understood


I saved this one for last because I'm sure there are plenty of questions on this book. What were the horrors in this book referring to? Could this really lend credence to end times theology? The answer to the latter question is the Book of Revelation is not referring to the end times. That said, the former question can be addressed.


Is the Antichrist mentioned in Revelation? Not as many have come to understand the Antichrist. But are there Antichrists depicted in Revelation? Absolutely. In the early church, persecution was very common. St. Peter and St. Paul both met their deaths in Rome during Emperor Nero's persecution of Christians. In the first century, many were martyred.


So what is the message of Revelation?


Revelation 13:16-18


It forced all the people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to be given a stamped image on their right hands or their foreheads, so that no one could buy or sell except one who had the stamped image of the beast's name or the number that stood for its name. Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number that stands for a person. His number is six hundred and sixty-six.


Far from credit cards and bar codes, this passage harks back to Nero's reign. The Greek form of his name in Hebrew letters gives the required sum. However, the Latin form gives the sum 616, which is where you get the other number of the beast. Nero persecuted Christians without remorse. In the Roman Empire, Christians were considered enemies of the state and could be executed because they refused to worship the emperor as a god. So you see where the other part of the passage comes from.


Revelation 17:7-14


The angel said to me, “Why are you amazed? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, the beast with the seven heads and the ten horns. The beast that you saw existed once, but now exists no longer. It will come up from the abyss and is headed for destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world shall be amazed when they see the beast, because it existed once but exists no longer, and yet it will come again. Here is a clue for one who has wisdom. The seven heads represent the seven hills upon which the woman sits. They also represent seven kings: five have already fallen, one still lives, and the last has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a short while. The beast that existed once but exists no longer is an eighty king, but really belongs to the seven and is headed for destruction. The ten horns that you saw represent ten kings who have not yet been crowned; they will receive royal authority along with the beast for one hour. They are of one mind and will give their power and authority to the beast. They will fight with the Lamb, but the Lamb will conquer them, for he is the Lord of lords and the king of kings, and those with him are called, chosen, and faithful.”


Again, we're taken back to Rome. The seven hills represent Rome, which was built on seven hills. The beast that will come again is a reference to the dead Nero returning to power. However, this need not be taken literally. Later emperors persecuted Christians just as Nero did. However, Christianity eventually conquered the Roman Empire despite being persecuted.


Revelation 18:1-3


After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth became illumined by his splendor. He cried out in a mighty voice: “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great. She has become a haunt for demons. She is a cage for every unclean spirit, a cage for every unclean bird, [a cage for every unclean] and disgusting [beast]. For all the nations have drunk the wine of her licentious passion. The kings of the earth had intercourse with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her drive for luxury”


Babylon in this case refers to Rome. This can be referenced to 1 Peter 5:13.


The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son.


The fall of Rome was what Revelation was referring to and the triumph of Christ's church on this world. But what of the references to great battles fought in Revelation?


Revelation 12:7-9


Then war broke out in heave; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it.


This is a reference to something that already happened. This is the war in heaven everyone talks about. St. Michael triumphed over Satan and he was cast out. We are reminded of the prayer to St. Michael.


St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do you, o prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, cast into hell Satan and the other evil spirits who prowl throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.


Revelation 19:11


Then I saw the heavens opened, and there was a white horse; its rider was [called] “Faithful and True.” He judges and wages war in righteousness.


This is a reference to Jesus Christ fighting against evil. The coming of Jesus Christ is important in the next chapter.


Revelation 20:1-3


Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss and a heavy chain. He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, and tied it up for a thousand years and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the thousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time.


Satan is dealt a mighty blow, but he isn't completely eliminated. The thousand years are not meant to be taken literally, but the chaining of Satan represents Christ's victory over sin and death. Revelation 20:4-6 describes the outcome of Christ's victory over death, which is our salvation. But as we have seen and will see, Satan is still a factor.


Revelation 20:7-10


When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. They invaded the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and their beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


This is a symbolic battle. The breadth of the earth refers to Palestine and the beloved city is Jerusalem. Gog and Magog represent the pagan nations of the world. However, a deeper meaning to this passage can describe how Satan and his minions keep us under siege with temptation to sin, but through the light of Christ, we can resist Satan's temptations. In a sense, we are telling Satan to go back to hell and leave us alone.


Revelation 21:9


One of the seven angels who held the seven bowls filled with the seven lat plagues came and said to me, “Come here. I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”


This is a reference to Christ's church. The chapter later goes on to describe the new Jerusalem, which is essentially the church.


Conclusions


Though the lack of apparent scriptural support for end times theology is apparent, many people continue to misread these prophecies. These prophecies have already been fulfilled and any attempts to fit prophecy into modern events ultimately fails. Rather, be prepared for the end of your earthly pilgrimage because you do not know the day or the hour the Lord will summon you to Him. You will have to account for the gift He has given you.

My RC brother:

Here is something to ponder: The four beasts depicted in Daniel and Revelation are even by Catholic scholars identified as the four ancient world kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Pagan Rome. Here is the clincher, look at Revelation 13:1-10, note how it depicts a new beast which is a composite of the four preceding beasts, and that its authority was given to it by the "dragon" (pagan Rome). This the million dollar question: What religio-political power arose out of Pagan
Rome, and was given its authority by Pagan Rome, and has to this day still has its global headquarters in Rome?

 

[CrusaderKing]

This the million dollar question: What religio-political power arose out of Pagan
Rome and is still in existence to this day?

This is a common attack against the Roman Catholic Church. Rv. 13:1-10 refers to the Roman Empire and the emperors that governed it. Rv. 11-18 refers to false prophets that come along with the first beast.

 

[Knee V]

My RC brother:

Here is something to ponder: The four beasts depicted in Daniel and Revelation are even by Catholic scholars identified as the four ancient world kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Pagan Rome. Here is the clincher, look at Revelation 13:1-10, note how it depicts a new beast which is a composite of the four preceding beasts, and that its authority was given to it by the "dragon" (pagan Rome). This the million dollar question: What religio-political power arose out of Pagan
Rome, and was given its authority by Pagan Rome, and has to this day still has its global headquarters in Rome?

I was about to reply to this, but . . .
Reminds me of this horse that was dead, that everyone kept beating over and over and over again with the same tired old stick.
So that reply that I was going to write . . . nah . . . not today . . .

 

[BrightCandle]

This is a common attack against the Roman Catholic Church. Rv. 13:1-10 refers to the Roman Empire and the emperors that governed it. Rv. 11-18 refers to false prophets that come along with the first beast.

It is not an attack it is pure history. One has to deny the clear record of history to conclude otherwise.

 

[BrightCandle]

I was about to reply to this, but . . .
Reminds me of this horse that was dead, that everyone kept beating over and over and over again with the same tired old stick.
So that reply that I was going to write . . . nah . . . not today . . .

If you have something credible to say, speak up my brother!

 

[WarriorAngel]

My RC brother:

Here is something to ponder: The four beasts depicted in Daniel and Revelation are even by Catholic scholars identified as the four ancient world kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Pagan Rome. Here is the clincher, look at Revelation 13:1-10, note how it depicts a new beast which is a composite of the four preceding beasts, and that its authority was given to it by the "dragon" (pagan Rome). This the million dollar question: What religio-political power arose out of Pagan
Rome, and was given its authority by Pagan Rome, and has to this day still has its global headquarters in Rome?

Tut tut.

The beast in Revelation, and the harlot neither of which describe the Roman Catholic Church.

She does not do world wide trade, but world wide charity.
She doesnt drink the blood of the Saints, but tries to keep more from dying. [the unborn]
etc etc
WE went through all of this before.

Furthermore; CHRIST told His Apostles HE would stay with them til the consumation of time.

NOW we know the Apostles would die b4 the end time...and have done so. What He meant was He would stay with the Church He built upon Peter and the Apostles...and therefore logically He would not stay with the harlot. SO conclusively, it is not the CHURCH.

Not one single Apostle He sent out would be a part of the harlot...including the fact St John wrote this LONGGGGGGGG after Rome became the Chair of Peter.

 

[CrusaderKing]

It is not an attack it is pure history. One has to deny the clear record of history to conclude otherwise.

Okay, please explain to me how this is pure history. I'll have to admit this angle catches me a bit off guard. The scripture you cited does not refer to the Roman Catholic Church at all.

The four beasts described in Daniel refer to the Babylonian empie (winged lion in Dn. 7:4), the Median empire (bear in Dn. 7:5), the Persian Empire (leopard in Dn. 7:6), and the Macedonian Empire of Alexander the Great (fourth beast described in Dn. 7:7). Rome isn't one of the beasts in Daniel.

 

[BrightCandle]

Okay, please explain to me how this is pure history. I'll have to admit this angle catches me a bit off guard. The scripture you cited does not refer to the Roman Catholic Church at all.

The four beasts described in Daniel refer to the Babylonian empie (winged lion in Dn. 7:4), the Median empire (bear in Dn. 7:5), the Persian Empire (leopard in Dn. 7:6), and the Macedonian Empire of Alexander the Great (fourth beast described in Dn. 7:7). Rome isn't one of the beasts in Daniel.

Here is the key to understanding: You are apply two beast to the Medio-Persian Empire, when only one fits. Yes, the lion represents the Babylonian Empire, and the Bear the Medio-Persian Empire, and the Leopard the Greek Empire under Alexander the Great. Note, when Alexander died four of his general took over different parts of the empire, the four heads. While the fourth beast, the most terrifying of them all, Pagan Rome, had ten horns which is what happened when Rome fell, it was divided up into the ten smaller kingdoms of which the Papacy become dominate, while the other nine kingdoms have fallen into obscurity. And finally, note how one of the horns had eyes like a man, and a mouth speaking great things. Have you ever heard of Pope Leo the Great?

 

[BrightCandle]

Tut tut.

The beast in Revelation, and the harlot neither of which describe the Roman Catholic Church.

She does not do world wide trade, but world wide charity.
She doesnt drink the blood of the Saints,

The Inquisition went on for at least 300 years under the blessing of scores of Popes resulting in the deaths of more Christians at the hands of a professed Christian church than at any time in recorded history. The "blood of the saints" did literally flow in the streets.

 

[CrusaderKing]

Here is the key to understanding: You are apply two beast to the Medio-Persian Empire, when only one fits.

Both fit. The Median Empire came before the Achaemenid Empire, which dominated Persia. I should have specified that the third beast referred to the Persian Empire of Cyrus, who was the founder of the Achaemenid dynasty. It was originally a tributary state of Medes, but eventually swallowed it whole and conquered much of the known world.

Note, when Alexander died four of his general took over different parts of the empire, the four heads. While the fourth beast, the most terrifying of them all, Pagan Rome, had ten horns which is what happened when Rome fell, it was divided up into the ten smaller kingdoms of which the Papacy become dominate, while the other nine kingdoms have fallen into obscurity. And finally, note how one of the horns had eyes like a man, and a mouth speaking great things. Have you ever heard of Pope Leo the Great?

Now that I've finished my history lesson, what follows the logical sequence of events? Cyrus conquers the Medes, the Babylonians, etc. The Achaemenid Empire was conquered by Alexander. And yes, Alexander's empire was divided. The ten horns describe the Seleucid Empire, which ruled over a substantial portion of Alexander's old empire, including Palestine.

As far as the papacy being mentioned in Daniel, I don't see it. The beasts in Daniel follow a historic progression from Babylon, to Medes, then to Cyrus, then to Alexander, and ultimately to the Seleucids, from which the little horn arose.

 

[BrightCandle]

Both fit. The Median Empire came before the Achaemenid Empire, which dominated Persia. I should have specified that the third beast referred to the Persian Empire of Cyrus, who was the founder of the Achaemenid dynasty. It was originally a tributary state of Medes, but eventually swallowed it whole and conquered much of the known world.



Now that I've finished my history lesson, what follows the logical sequence of events? Cyrus conquers the Medes, the Babylonians, etc. The Achaemenid Empire was conquered by Alexander. And yes, Alexander's empire was divided. The ten horns describe the Seleucid Empire, which ruled over a substantial portion of Alexander's old empire, including Palestine.

As far as the papacy being mentioned in Daniel, I don't see it. The beasts in Daniel follow a historic progression from Babylon, to Medes, then to Cyrus, then to Alexander, and ultimately to the Seleucids, from which the little horn arose.

Here is the weakness of your view. In Daniel 2, the image in Nebucadneezer's dream was made of gold (Babylon), silver (Medio-Persia), bronze (Greece), and iron (Rome). and the feet representing divided Europe was made up of iron mixed with clay. Divided Europe came out of the Roman Empire, not the Greek Empire. Plus, there is significance regarding the metal iron, which the Roman perfected for use in war. Note, the article from Encyclopedia Britannica below regarding iron and the Romans.

Encyclopedia Britannica

The Romans, who have never been looked upon as innovators but more as organizers, helped to spread the knowledge of iron making, so that the output of wrought iron in the Roman world greatly increased. With the decline of Roman influence, iron making continued much as before in Europe, and there is little evidence of any change for many centuries in the rest of the world. However, by the beginning of the 15th century, waterpower was used to blow air into bloomery furnaces; as a consequence, the temperature in the furnace increased to above 1,200° C (2,200° F), so that, instead of forming a solid bloom of iron, a liquid was produced rich in carbon—i.e., cast iron. In order to make this into wrought iron by reducing the carbon content, solidified cast iron was passed through a finery, where it was melted in an oxidizing atmosphere with charcoal as the fuel. This removed the carbon to give a semisolid bloom, which, after cooling, was hammered into shape.



* MLA style:
"steel." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2006. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 12 Nov. 2006 <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-81449>.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Inquisition went on for at least 300 years under the blessing of scores of Popes resulting in the deaths of more Christians at the hands of a professed Christian church than at any time in recorded history. The "blood of the saints" did literally flow in the streets.

The Beast or the harlot?

You say we are the harlot, then the beast.

I addressed the the kingdom without a king as the UN....so who is correct?

Aside from that, the inquisitions also killed many Catholics by the hands of protestants...so is it the protestants then? By your line of thinking....it could just as easily be so.

 

[CrusaderKing]

Here is the weakness of your view. In Daniel 2, the image in Nebucadneezer's dream was made of gold (Babylon), silver (Medio-Persia), bronze (Greece), and iron (Rome). and the feet representing divided Europe was made up of iron mixed with clay. Divided Europe came out of the Roman Empire, not the Greek Empire.

Actually, the order is still Babylon, Media, the Achaemenid Empire, and then Alexander. You forget that the Romans were not the first to employ iron in warfare. The Macedonians made use of iron as well. In the tomb of Philip II, one could find the iron breastplate and the iron shield that he used. The tile in the feet just refers to what the Babylonians used for decoration and construction.

The prophecy also doesn't speak of a divided Europe, but the empire that was divided after the death of Alexander the Great into four kingdoms: Macedonia, Pergamon, Egypt and the Seleucid Empire.

 

[chris777]

I find it prideful for any denomination to believe that all others are decieved, while they cannot be.

I am a christian, that is all the scriptures call me to be.
I am still searching for a church, in that every time I find one I start to agree with scripturally, they have to pull out some doctrine that does not line up with Gods word.

Remember only the lowly recognized theri savior in the flesh, when the well educated in the scriptures were plinded to their savior.

Are we any different now than they were then?

 

[Loukuss]

I find it prideful for any denomination to believe that all others are decieved, while they cannot be.

Boy, do I agree!
Pride is a terrible sin to meddle with.

I am a christian, that is all the scriptures call me to be.
I am still searching for a church, in that every time I find one I start to agree with scripturally, they have to pull out some doctrine that does not line up with Gods word.

Good call!

 

[Loukuss]

CK,

Is the OP your original work? Or have you lifted it from a website?
Just curious.

also, people will read your threads more if you keep it shorter. You posted way too many words. Just my humble opinion.

Peace,

Lucas

 

[CrusaderKing]

CK,

Is the OP your original work? Or have you lifted it from a website?
Just curious.

The Scripture is not my original work (obviously), but the comments are mine.

 

[ETide]

Many in the Christian community at large would tell you that there is a scriptural support for their views, but these usually come from passages from scripture that are taken out of context.

The false doctrine of amillennialism (which catholicism and various other denominations embrace) is the king with respect to taking scripture out of its context..