Thoughts on Dawkins/Hitchens/Harris

[mulimulix]

I've never actually heard people's opinions on the most prominent atheists in the world; Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris.

Here is a video related to each respected person:

Dawkins

Hitchens

There aren't any good videos on Sam Harris as he mainly writes and doesn't speak too often about god specifically, but you can see the synopsis of some of his books on wiki.

Let me know what your thoughts on them are.

 

[EphesiaNZ]

Oh dear, these two poor fellows just seem to have spent far too much of their lives in academia land. Hitchens needs to loosen up a bit as his blood pressure may cause him to find out if he is correct (or not) about God's existence.

YouTube - ‪The Wit of Dr. Craig - Part 12 "No preference for a 'wahhabi' atheist"‬‏

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I had a listen to most of the on on Dawkins, will come back and finish it off after work (I work from home). They are definitely good public speakers. However I have to disagree with what they are saying. My faith has been built up on a lot of evidence over the years. God performing signs, to keep me and others on the path way of faith. I ask that you have a read of my website which lists the times that God has done stuff in my life. Not just feelings, but real miracles. Things that only God could do. I don't believe out of blind faith but real experience.

My website is at Home

 

[ks777]

I've never actually heard people's opinions on the most prominent atheists in the world; Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris.

Let me know what your thoughts on them are.

It seems to me that these people don't necessarily have anything against God, but religions. I haven't read any of their work apart from a few chapter summeries of main arguments, I have been meaning to read 'The God delusion' and 'God is not great'. I think people are generally pretty stupid and don't question what's being presented to them, and the use of emotive and persuasive language can get people to think and feel a certain way without actually analysing the arguments being presented.

I watched the debate with Hitchens and Craig a while ago, while I don't agree with William Lane Craig's theology, I have to admit he is an amazing speaker, I really admire him. I know it must be a hard seat to be in when you're on the atheist side of an argument, but I still thought Hitchens arguments were very poor. I was amazed to find out he's actually one of the leading 'angry atheists'.

 

[mulimulix]

Oh dear, these two poor fellows just seem to have spent far too much of their lives in academia land. Hitchens needs to loosen up a bit as his blood pressure may cause him to find out if he is correct (or not) about God's existence.

YouTube - ‪The Wit of Dr. Craig - Part 12 "No preference for a 'wahhabi' atheist"‬‏

Actually, Hitchens has been battling cancer for I think the past year or two. I haven't heard the latest, but last time I checked, he wasn't doing too well.

I had a listen to most of the on on Dawkins, will come back and finish it off after work (I work from home). They are definitely good public speakers. However I have to disagree with what they are saying. My faith has been built up on a lot of evidence over the years. God performing signs, to keep me and others on the path way of faith. I ask that you have a read of my website which lists the times that God has done stuff in my life. Not just feelings, but real miracles. Things that only God could do. I don't believe out of blind faith but real experience.

My website is at Home

I think Dawkins is a good public speaker with prepared speeched, but if you have ever seen him done an impromptu debate with a Creationist/theist, I think he is not that good. I personally think Matt Dillahunty (host of The Atheist Experience) is the best atheist debater.

As for your website, there is a lot of stuff on there. Are there any things in particular you would like me to read? I am yet to come across a miracle which hasn't been explainable.

It seems to me that these people don't necessarily have anything against God, but religions. I haven't read any of their work apart from a few chapter summeries of main arguments, I have been meaning to read 'The God delusion' and 'God is not great'. I think people are generally pretty stupid and don't question what's being presented to them, and the use of emotive and persuasive language can get people to think and feel a certain way without actually analysing the arguments being presented.

I watched the debate with Hitchens and Craig a while ago, while I don't agree with William Lane Craig's theology, I have to admit he is an amazing speaker, I really admire him. I know it must be a hard seat to be in when you're on the atheist side of an argument, but I still thought Hitchens arguments were very poor. I was amazed to find out he's actually one of the leading 'angry atheists'.

Your first point is interesting. It is definitely true that they are more against organised religion and theism than deism. I know they (and I) would much prefer everyone to be deists than theists.

I am happy to see you are open-minded enough to be willing to read those books. God Delusion is almost the atheist 'Bible' in the way that if a theist asks for one book to read about atheism, that would be the one. It certainly convinced my against father into atheism.

Although I haven't seen much of Hitchens (I prefer Dawkins), I have to say I agree with you to an extent. I find Hitchens is much more aggressive and less empathetic, in that he says things very bluntly.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

As for your website, there is a lot of stuff on there. Are there any things in particular you would like me to read? I am yet to come across a miracle which hasn't been explainable.

Sorry it is a bit long, I have just recorded stuff as it has happened. The ones that I like the best are the first two, the one about the guy who was stabbed (called The future is bright), and the one about the guy freed from terrorists (called God Sees our heart). Another interesting one is the one called "God's Message to the President of Iran 28 Feb 2011", some of it is just christianise, but if you read it you will understand why I say it is another miracle. Once you have read them if you don't understand what I mean I will try to explain it. Actuall the first two have lengthier descriptions if you need farther explanation. I would like to know what your thoughts are on the experiences.

 

[mulimulix]

Sorry it is a bit long, I have just recorded stuff as it has happened. The ones that I like the best are the first two, the one about the guy who was stabbed (called The future is bright), and the one about the guy freed from terrorists (called God Sees our heart). Another interesting one is the one called "God's Message to the President of Iran 28 Feb 2011", some of it is just christianise, but if you read it you will understand why I say it is another miracle. Once you have read them if you don't understand what I mean I will try to explain it. Actuall the first two have lengthier descriptions if you need farther explanation. I would like to know what your thoughts are on the experiences.

Did all of these happen to you?

The future is bright: I hardly see how this is a miracle. You were in the rough end of town, you obviously knew that. It isn't really a miracle to have what you thought was god telling you something about a stabbing in an area where a lot of people would have been shot/stabbed. There are areas of some cities where it is the norm to be stabbed or shot. Nevertheless, experiential evidence is nowhere near proof. For all I know, you are lying. I am not saying you are, but that's the problem with 'Evidence' which can only be verified by one person.

God sees our heart: There are some problems I have with this. The first being that as an Australian soldier, he probably was not even a religious Christian. Although it is hard to tell, from my experience living in Sydney all my life, only about maybe 15% of Australians would actually go to Church every Sunday, if ever. Why would god choose to save him? Similarly, out of ALL the prisoners of war in history (we're talking millions), god saves one. This is hardly an achievement. What about all of the Jews in concentration camps? What about the millions of soviet soldiers who were treated worse than any other POW in modern times? Where was god for them? I find it too far-fetched god would choose to save one out of potentially millions of POWs. And if he did, he has no logic.

God's message to the president: Once again, it cannot be verified by anyone except you. I am not at liberty to say why this is wrong, as I was not there.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Why would god choose to save him?

I can not say why. But from the story you will know that God saw his heart. He saw he was a kind and generous person. All God did was point out the good points. As I am sure he would with you too, surely you have some good qualities, and it is those God focuses on.

Then with Simon the guy who was stabbed, God had ask me "How would I like to be stabbed?", before I had even met him, again God was tender hearted toward him not harsh.

As for the injustices that are caused in this world are not the desire of God, he says Rom 12:18-20 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. ... On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

I have been praying recently that God will really begin to make a change in the injustices in the world and I believe he will do so. So much so I have even been praying for Dawkins that he might be blessed with the knowledge of God's love for him.

As for the Iranian President God sent him a mesage saying "Seek Good and not evil that you may live, and I will be with you as you say that I am". All Muslums believe God is with them, but they are misguided they unintentionally at times do evil, esspecially agianst non believers. I guess we all do at times. But God is good, and he wants us to do good. So God was saying "Be good, do good", stop doing anything bad.

As for verification of these things you are right only I can verify them. I mean we could find Simon, at least you would know he is real. Honestly I fear trying to prove stuff through challenges becasue really I can't control it. For now until my faith and abilities in God grow all I can say is ask God to get you with his love. And hope that he reveals to you the truth of my words.

But I would ask you, if you can muster a little faith, to sincerly consider the character of God in those things, he was always choosing to find the good.

To solidify that point I will include on of the stories from the site. And again it was God finding the good points in an unbeliever.

I have a client at work (a non Christian) who was wanting to build a web site from which to give 20% to charity. There was only one problem in my eyes he was using his site to support his local watering holes, i.e. pubs and clubs. So I went to God in prayer. I decided to open the bible at random to get a direct word of the LORD for him, to know whether I should continue to support his project, because I felt that the drinking side of things might negatively impact some people. I opened the bible and put my finger on a verse on the page it was Act 20:35 - In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: "It is more blessed to give than to receive.'". So Jesus gave me it was “It is more blessed to give than to receive”. So from that I knew God was really pleased with his heart attitude, and I believe will bless him, regardless of the faults in terms of drinking. Hopefully you get the point God loves him, and he loves you to.

 

[D+C]

Christopher Hitchens used to appear on BBC Radio 4 with depressing regularity, and I never appreciated the tone with which he conducted himself. Too combative and frankly rude.

I remember listening to an interview in which Hitchens spoke of the bravery needed to speak out against religion in the USA, and went on to speak of the US in very condescending terms. I couldn't help but think that actually this was quite cowardly- attacking a country in which freedom of speech is fiercely protected and then claiming he was brave to so. Now delivering a lecture on the evils of religion in Tehran, that would be brave.

Christopher's brother Peter is much more to my taste!

I do however firmly believe that all thinking people who hold any religious conviction, either theist or atheist, should watch the God Delusion Debate, in which Dawkins debated John Lennox. I have it on DVD and have watched it a number of times. I think that it is a little much to expect all believers to read the God Delusion, just as it is a little much to expect atheists to read the Dawkins Delusion (my favourite refutation). But everyone can watch and learn from the debate- perhaps it is a weakness, but I find it much easier to digest opposing opinions when I am not feeling perpetually outraged, and being safe in the knowledge that "my side" will be argued certainly helps with that!

 

[AlexBP]

I've never actually heard people's opinions on the most prominent atheists in the world; Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris.
...
Let me know what your thoughts on them are.

I've tried reading Harris's book The End of Faith but only got a few pages in before giving up. He has a minor problem with reporting fictions as facts. For instance, he claims that during the Holocaust, the Catholic Church was collaborating with the Nazis; in reality, the Catholic Church was a leading source of resistance to the Nazis, and thousands of Catholic clergy were sent to the gas chambers as a result. That, and numerous other whoppers of the same sort, convinced me that Harris only desires to grab attention with bile and filth, like an atheist Ann Coulter.

For Christopher Hitchens, I've read some of his columns in Slate and The Weekly Standard, most of them dealing with political topics, though a few dealt with religion. Nobody can deny that he's quite creative at coming up with insults. As far as actual, convincing arguments he doesn't do nearly as well. For example, he still insists that Saddam Hussein's large stockpiles of WMDs were a fine justification for the invasion of Iraq. His religious arguments are equally unconvincing. One claim that I remember is him saying that Genesis 1 can't have been inspired by God because it doesn't mention dinosaurs, to which I can only respond: huh?

I have managed to read all of The God Delusion. Richard Dawkins is certainly more intellectual than the other two, yet to some extent he wants to have it both ways, since he can't resist throwing in a few juvenile insults here and there. For example, in the introduction, he implies that anyone who doesn't become an atheist upon reading his book must be controlled by "childhood indoctrination". For those like me who were raised as atheists, it's hard not to laugh at it.

That said, Dawkins does offer serious arguments; I just don't agree with them. I can't cover it all here, but I'll note a few points. In a section on religious experiences, he says that all experiences with God, angels, etc... are actually hallucinations. When making an assertion like that, one generally should provide an argument for why it should be true. Dawkins does not; he merely makes the assertion. Likewise, he later claims that humans have inherited genes from our caveman ancestors that makes us behave in certain ways. For example, as children we supposedly have genes that makes us believe and obey adults. (As a teacher, I find this unlikely.) Once again, there's no reference to back this up.

 

[Mr Dave]

Christopher Hitchens used to appear on BBC Radio 4 with depressing regularity, and I never appreciated the tone with which he conducted himself. Too combative and frankly rude.

I remember listening to an interview in which Hitchens spoke of the bravery needed to speak out against religion in the USA, and went on to speak of the US in very condescending terms. I couldn't help but think that actually this was quite cowardly- attacking a country in which freedom of speech is fiercely protected and then claiming he was brave to so. Now delivering a lecture on the evils of religion in Tehran, that would be brave.

Christopher's brother Peter is much more to my taste!

I agree, I'm much more a fan of Peter who speaks with much more clarity IMHO.


As for Dawkins, when he's talking about his field of study, he's very good. However he is not a theologian or philosopher and this becomes apparent when he tries to talk about these things - The God Delusion starts off with some decently copied philosophical questions against faith in God, but the book quickly descends into a ridiculous and overly emotive attack on religious faith, by mixing some examples of extremism of all religions and tries to portray it as the mainstream.

 

[humblehumility]

I've watched every Hitchens debate there is to watch on the internet, I find him to be highly entertaining.

I think the points he brings up against religion are blunt, and there is a lot of truth to them. On the contrary, he seems to have a bit of a tougher time responding directly to what the religious person is saying. He lacks religious experience himself, which makes it hard to view things from the perspective of a believer.

For instance in the Craig/Hitchens debate that a snippet was posted here from, Dr. Craig asks Hitchens to provide the objective morality for which he lives by. Hitchens never really addressed this. On the other hand, I've seen Hitchens do this same thing to religious people a countless number of times.

And yes, Hitchens has cancer and he's been getting progressively worse. He's got money and is getting as much experimental treatment as possible. This is a great read :

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/09/hitchens-201009

 

[mulimulix]

Everything

It's funny, because I have heard a lot of Christians say god doesn't interfere in very much at all with our lives, yet you are telling me that you pray for every little thing in your life. I think the purpose and challenges in life are defeated if god were to interfere in everything.

Also, a thought about the hostage came to me just now. Those three words which came into your head; how was that helpful? What was the point in god telling you them? It didn't change anything, nor did you even know what they means. Obviously, god was not very helpful...

I will respond to everything else in a few hours; I have to go now, but thanks.

 

[EphesiaNZ]

Actually, Hitchens has been battling cancer for I think the past year or two. I haven't heard the latest, but last time I checked, he wasn't doing too well.

That's a shame to hear but at least he can't blame our God for that! Lets hope his cancer makes him think about his mortality and what happens after life ends (But doubt he will). Anyway, I will pray for him and his salvation.

It's strange what people say and what they actually hold inside their heart. A friend of a friend of mine was well known for his intolerance of racial minorities - he wasn't KKK like though but aired his views quite clearly. When the man died, everyone was surprised to find he'd left all his money to a charity helping those minorities he spoke so bad about!

Salvation maybe?

 

[ebia]

I've read a bit less than half of The God Delusion. It seemed to me that he spent too much time in ad-hominem attacks, and in addressing the thin, poor, theology of fundamentalists or other extremists and then pretending he had addressed the full range of deep theology.

When it got to his bit on the bible it was of such poor quality it was laughable. When he tries to suggest that Jesus of Nazareth may not even have existed it's worth checking his citation: it turns out not to be an historian but an Emeritus Professor of German who no longer holds that view anyway. In other words he tries to suggest an historical claim that no historical scholar (secular or otherwise) will back up.

He's a scientist (and a good one). His grasp of the historical and philosophical methods (let alone theology) is abysmal, and it shows.

All that said, it's no worse than a lot of Christian apologetic - poor stuff written to appeal to (and sell to) those who already agree with it.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Also, a thought about the hostage came to me just now. Those three words which came into your head; how was that helpful? What was the point in god telling you them? It didn't change anything, nor did you even know what they means. Obviously, god was not very helpful...

The thing is that God let me know the reason why he was rescued. Because he was a good man. If you remember the story by the end of it I did understand those words, it was just initially I was confused, God showed me what they ment. God choose to use the US troops to rescue him but left me with a message I could share with Douglas Wood in future, that he was loved by God. God had seen his good works and would not leave him with out help. The fault really lies with me if I had more faith I could be more helpful, i.e. I could believe God for other situations that are similar. To put my heart of my sleve I really am a very timid person at times, I fear trying to hear from God directly. It is like driving a car I guess if you have never done it before it can be a terror to you, as you practice you are less fearful, eventually you just drive with confidence. At the moment I am still in the a little bit fearful stage.

I am more confident in the recieving words from the bible thing, because I have had greater success with it.

yet you are telling me that you pray for every little thing in your life

Maybe that is an exageration, I don't pray for everything, I often forget to pray about things. When I get desperate then I pray might be a better way to put it.

I think the purpose and challenges in life are defeated if god were to interfere in everything

From my experience God does not do things "in your face", so to speak, he gently speaks, and guides. Some times he has left me in very hard places, but I have found those experience have often helped others. As an example I once went through a time where I was so lonly and desperate that I felt like taking my own life. You might say well God was not very kind to you. But it has enabled me to connect with people that are going through similar situations, and then I can tell them but in the end God restored me to blessing. You can be blessed to. You might have read the story about God letting me know who to marry as an example, God restored me from a place of lonelyness to one of fulfillment. So it comes back the what is the point of God interferring it is to bring about blessing. If we are not seeking for God we might be doing ok, because God is not out to get you, he will not make your life miserable just becasue you don't believe in him yet. But with God you have the wisdom to overcome all obsticals in your life. As the bible says:

Pro 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Without the revelation of God's love in a persons life, lives are prone to lead to violence, drunkeness, thefts, murders, and sorrows, sickness, perverse sexual behaviours, and judgmental attitudes.

The following verse says "And that is what some of you were." - we have achance to change our history.

1Co 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[secondtimearound]

I rely on an electrician to fix my electrical issues. I rely on a medical doctor to fix my medical issues. I rely on a scientist to fix my philosophical issues.

One of the above statements sounds pretty rediculous wouldn't you say?

 

[razeontherock]

Let me know what your thoughts on them are.

Dawkins is an idiot. I've heard more than enough from him to certify this. He may be brilliant in his field, but he's said such loony things outside of it, I'd be more inclined to believe the opposite of what he said even within his own field.

 

[razeontherock]

For example, as children we supposedly have genes that makes us believe and obey adults. (As a teacher, I find this unlikely.)

God forbid Dawkins should ever reproduce!

 

[EphesiaNZ]

I rely on an electrician to fix my electrical issues. I rely on a medical doctor to fix my medical issues. I rely on a scientist to fix my philosophical issues.

One of the above statements sounds pretty rediculous wouldn't you say?

The doctor maybe?