Thoughts on Confirmation

goldbeach · Jun 15, 2011

doulos_tou_kuriou said:
I'm not certain that is entirely true. Not only do some LCMS congregations practice first communion, which is preceded by a class on communion not Lutheran doctrine, but there are congregations in the LCMS that have a statement of faith regarding communion in their bulletin and invite any to come who share these beliefs. Again, that is not basic Lutheran doctrine, only doctrine around communion.

WHat I had posted is official LCMS standards for communion. Whether it is practiced in each congregation is definitely questionable.

goldbeach · Jun 15, 2011

lux et lex said:
But how do you prove you are indeed WELS or ELS? Do you have a membership card? A secret handshake?

We won't ask you if you are ELCA since it is very obvious.

doulos_tou_kuriou · Jun 15, 2011

doulos_tou_kuriou said:
The WELS Communion Express Card...don't leave home without it.

By the way I hope none of my WELSites here take offense to this, just a making joke.

lux et lex · Jun 15, 2011

goldbeach said:
We won't ask you if you are ELCA since it is very obvious.

But I could be sitting in the pews at your church. Communing with you. And you probably wouldn't know, now would you?

Kalevalatar · Jun 16, 2011

doulos_tou_kuriou said:
I'd be interested to hear how people here define "confirmation" and its role in the life and ministry of the church.

In confirmation, a confirmant publicly confesses the faith of the church and commits to being a disciple of Jesus by joining in the creed.

Thus, the confirmant confirms, independently, that s/he understands what our faith stands for and wants to continue to being a member (or wants to become a member) of the church &faith s/he was baptized in as an infant.

Confirmation then gives the right to independently partake the Holy Communion (as opposed to being accompanied by a parent/grandparent/godparent), be a godparent, marry in the church, and partake church elections.

Before confirmation, one's membership in the church is tied to one's parents and godparents. In confirmation, one chooses to become an independent full member of the church, if you will.

Here is the order of our public confirmation Mass (in English).

goldbeach · Jun 16, 2011

lux et lex said:
But I could be sitting in the pews at your church. Communing with you. And you probably wouldn't know, now would you?

You would be welcome since we need examples of what NOT to do.

seajoy · Jun 16, 2011

lux et lex said:
But I could be sitting in the pews at your church. Communing with you. And you probably wouldn't know, now would you?

Since WELS pastors are not mind readers, they could either skip over you, or give you Communion to your own detriment. Both of those have been done. WELS pastors aren't God, but to the best of their ability, perform the duties they are supposed to do.

Melethiel · Jun 16, 2011

If the person is Christian, I don't see how they would take communion to their detriment. The confessions say that will only happen with a lack of faith. There are other arguments for closed communion, but people taking it to their detriment is not one of them.

seajoy · Jun 16, 2011

Melethiel said:
If the person is Christian, I don't see how they would take communion to their detriment. The confessions say that will only happen with a lack of faith. There are other arguments for closed communion, but people taking it to their detriment is not one of them.

Well, what do I know.

Zecryphon · Jun 16, 2011

lux et lex said:
But how do you prove you are indeed WELS or ELS? Do you have a membership card? A secret handshake?

Talk to the pastor of the church you're visiting. He may ask which church you attend or your beliefs regarding Communion. Back when I first visited the WELS church I currently attend, I spoke to the pastor regarding Communion and he asked me which church I was attending. When I told him, he said that I would not be permitted at the rail to receive because the church I was at and his church had greatly different views regarding Communion. I respected that and even expected to be denied Communion before even approaching him. But it never hurts to ask.

Zecryphon · Jun 16, 2011

Melethiel said:
If the person is Christian, I don't see how they would take communion to their detriment. The confessions say that will only happen with a lack of faith. There are other arguments for closed communion, but people taking it to their detriment is not one of them.

Not in my experience. I was denied Communion at my current WELS church, before I went through the membership classes, because the church I was attending at the time taught that Communion was symbolic only and Christ was not truly present. I learned later that one of the reasons they denied people from Reformed and other church bodies whom they are not in fellowship with Communion is because of Christ's teaching in Scripture as related by Paul here:

1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,
1Co 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
1Co 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
1Co 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
1Co 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

If you're interested, when I'm at church this coming Sunday I can pick up a copy of the pamphlet we give to visitors regarding our policy on Communion and post the arguments from that as to why we practiced closed Communion.

doulos_tou_kuriou · Jun 16, 2011

Zecryphon said:
If you're interested, when I'm at church this coming Sunday I can pick up a copy of the pamphlet we give to visitors regarding our policy on Communion and post the arguments from that as to why we practiced closed Communion.

I would be very interested in that Zec, and appreciative if you would do that.

Zecryphon · Jun 16, 2011

doulos_tou_kuriou said:
I would be very interested in that Zec, and appreciative if you would do that.

No problem. If I can't find the pamphlet I can post here what is contained in our membership course materials. I still have those. Or maybe it's on our website.

Paradise Valley Evangelical Lutheran Church

Melethiel · Jun 16, 2011

Zecryphon said:
Not in my experience. I was denied Communion at my current WELS church, before I went through the membership classes, because the church I was attending at the time taught that Communion was symbolic only and Christ was not truly present. I learned later that one of the reasons they denied people from Reformed and other church bodies whom they are not in fellowship with Communion is because of Christ's teaching in Scripture as related by Paul here:

1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,
1Co 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
1Co 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
1Co 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
1Co 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

If you're interested, when I'm at church this coming Sunday I can pick up a copy of the pamphlet we give to visitors regarding our policy on Communion and post the arguments from that as to why we practiced closed Communion.

I realize that's the common explanation. I'm just saying that it seems to contraadict whaT the confessions say about the matter, at least for people who do not deny the real presence but just happen to come from the wrong synod.

Zecryphon · Jun 16, 2011

Melethiel said:
I realize that's the common explanation. I'm just saying that it seems to contraadict whaT the confessions say about the matter, at least for people who do not deny the real presence but just happen to come from the wrong synod.

I don't have the time right now to post from the Confessions. Could you possibly post the portion you're referencing that seem to contradict these Scriptures?

Melethiel · Jun 16, 2011

Zecryphon said:
I don't have the time right now to post from the Confessions. Could you possibly post the portion you're referencing that seem to contradict these Scriptures?

*sigh* I'm not saying it contradicts the Scriptures. I'm saying it contradictgs our PRACTICE.
I also think the scriptures don't have as wide an application as we give them, in light of the confessions.

I'll post the relevant passage when I get hhome and am not posting from my phone.

Edit: I'm not saying closed communion the way we do it is wrong, I'm just saying we should havemore reasoning than the corinthians passage.

doulos_tou_kuriou · Jun 16, 2011

"For that not only the godly, pious, and believing Christians, but also unworthy, godless hypocrites, as Judas and his ilk, who have no spiritual communion with Christ, and go to the Table of the Lord without true repentance and conversion to God, also receive orally in the Sacrament the true body and [true] blood of Christ, and by their unworthy eating and drinking grievously sin against the body and blood of Christ, St. Paul teaches expressly. For he says, 1 Cor. 11:27: Whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, sins not merely against the bread and wine, not merely against the signs or symbols and emblems of the body and blood, but shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, which, as there [in the Holy Supper] present, he dishonors, abuses, and disgraces, as the Jews, who in very deed violated the body of Christ and killed Him; just as the ancient Christian Fathers and church-teachers unanimously have understood and explained this passage.

61] There is, therefore, a two-fold eating of the flesh of Christ, one spiritual, of which Christ treats especially John 6:54, which occurs in no other way than with the Spirit and faith, in the preaching and meditation of the Gospel, as well as in the Lord's Supper, and by itself is useful and salutary, and necessary at all times for salvation to all Christians; without which spiritual participation also the sacramental or oral eating in the Supper is not only not salutary, but even injurious and damning [a cause of condemnation]."

I'm not sure but this may be the passage she is referring to, which states that unworthy eating comes by lack of faith.

lux et lex · Jun 16, 2011

Melethiel said:
If the person is Christian, I don't see how they would take communion to their detriment. The confessions say that will only happen with a lack of faith.

I agree with this.

goldbeach · Jun 16, 2011

Again it's not only the belief of real presense in communion but the confirmation of common beliefs that is part of the procedure of communion. The communicant has all these aspects when taking communion. At least he/she should.

“We are agreed that the presence of Christ in the sacrament is not effected by faith but acknowledged by faith. The worthy participant is the one who receives in faith and repentance the Christ who offers himself in the sacrament. The unworthy participant is the one who fails to acknowledge the Lordship of Christ, his presence in the sacrament, and the fellowship of the brethren in the common Lord. Such unworthy participation brings judgment.
Luther, Martin: Pelikan, Jaroslav Jan (Hrsg.) ; Oswald, Hilton C. (Hrsg.) ; Lehmann, Helmut T. (Hrsg.): Luther's Works, Vol. 38 : Word and Sacrament IV. Philadelphia : Fortress Press, 1999, c1971 (Luther's Works 38), S. 38:V-XII

doulos_tou_kuriou · Jun 16, 2011

goldbeach said:
Again it's not only the belief of real presense in communion but the confirmation of common beliefs that is part of the procedure of communion. The communicant has all these aspects when taking communion. At least he/she should.

We are agreed that the presence of Christ in the sacrament is not effected by faith but acknowledged by faith. The worthy participant is the one who receives in faith and repentance the Christ who offers himself in the sacrament. The unworthy participant is the one who fails to acknowledge the Lordship of Christ, his presence in the sacrament, and the fellowship of the brethren in the common Lord. Such unworthy participation brings judgment.
Luther, Martin: Pelikan, Jaroslav Jan (Hrsg.) ; Oswald, Hilton C. (Hrsg.) ; Lehmann, Helmut T. (Hrsg.): Luther's Works, Vol. 38 : Word and Sacrament IV. Philadelphia : Fortress Press, 1999, c1971 (Luther's Works 38), S. 38:V-XII

1) While you don't say it is Luther, are you aware that this is not Luther you just quoted
2) I think you misinterpret their meaning of that phrase considering the broader context you took it from, which suggests fellowship sought not amidst total doctrinal agreement:
Here in the United States a discussion of the desirability of a theological dialogue between representatives of certain Lutheran church bodies and representatives of Presbyterian and Reformed churches led to the approval of holding such conversations in the spring of 1961. After a preliminary meeting in New York City between spokesmen of the two separate traditions, subsequent consultations culminated in a meeting at Princeton, New Jersey, in 1966, at which the results of this ongoing dialogue were evaluated and summarized.
In the Summary Statement that was drawn up, broad areas of agreement on the doctrine of the Lords Supper were acknowledged. We are agreed that the presence of Christ in the sacrament is not effected by faith but acknowledged by faith. The worthy participant is the one who receives in faith and repentance the Christ who offers himself in the sacrament. The unworthy participant is the one who fails to acknowledge the Lordship of Christ, his presence in the sacrament, and the fellowship of the brethren in the common Lord. Such unworthy participation brings judgment. While it is jointly agreed upon in the Summary Statement that the total Christ as the divine-human person is present in the sacrament, there is no specific explication of the more precise meaning of this presence. Consequently, no mention is made of the presence of the body and blood of Christ along with the bread and the wine and their oral reception by communicants. The concluding sentence in the statement makes it clear that the barriers to complete agreement between the denominations involved in the discussions have not been entirely removed. Our churches are not in full agreement on the practice of inter-communion because they hold different views of the relation of doctrine to the unity of the church. Nevertheless, the two confessional bodies that participated in the dialogue were encouraged to engage in further discussions with one another for the purpose of looking forward to inter-communion and the fuller recognition of one anothers ministries.

Thoughts on Confirmation

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