thoughts of jesus

[halfpastseven]

the things that are being said in this post are not the beliefs of halfpastseven. all that it is, is a idea that he came across in the mixed up mind of his. he knows that alot of this is very debatable and could be all the way false. it starts like this, the bible is sapose to be the word of god, it is the knowledge of good and evil. In the begining there was adam and eve, they lived on a paradise earth and were given only one rule, do not eat from one tree, the tree that reveals the knowledge of god and evil. God had angels that had to to what he said, they had no free will. there was one named lusifer, he did not like that we had free will and he didnt, he challenged god saying that he can get more angels and people to follow him than those that follow god. So really those who followed him, he would gain there worship or thats what he was after by all means. So god said lets see and cast him to earth, there he told eve that what god has told them is wrong, he says that if you eat from this tree it will not kill you but you will in fact live forever. He convinces her to eat it and she convinces adam to eat it as well. From that point on the bible tells stories and makes alot of points that show you that it is the truth, one example when it states that the world is round, back then people still thought it was flat, but thats beside the point. It pretty much stated a story of someone to be born that will be gods son or the human form of god, and he is sent here to die for our sins. he comes in this book and performs all kinds of miracles, dies and ressurects and says that we will do the same but in the process of this he teaches a lesson, indeed it is a lesson of love but at the same time he says all you have to do is pray to god but when you do, pray to him thru me, pray to him in the name of jesus christ. am i right so far? i have herd the saying the best trick the devil pulled was convincing the world he didnt exist. But that would defeat the purpose of the devil, when the devil wants people to be on his side. A bigger trick would be to influence people to write a story about someone coming to save them, and all they have to do is pray in his name to live forever in heaven and then be the person that comes and dies for everyones sins. That way he would gain a large majority of peoples worship. the bible speaks of peoples names changing when they do something significant. and this could be one of those times, the name changing from lusifer to jesus. this thought could also go along with different tribes of people and their own figures that they have chosen to look towards before praising god directly. I know that this sounds outlandish and is extremely crazy to look at this way, but somewhere along my ways of thinking too much this has came about and i just thought it would be interesting to see how people would respond to it on here. If you have any negative remarks or have intentions on putting me down for stating what i have said here please keep it to yourself, i am not trying to get anyone to believe this, it is just a thought, but please do respond

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

It comes down to, you either believe God and have faith or not. The fact is, I don't get why the devil would be so foolish to give people salvation, heal them, help them, give them hope, encourage them to llive holy etc....through a 'false' story. Satan wants to steal, kill and destroy. Doing that would completely defeat his own purpose and will. That's how you know it's not satan making people believe a story about Jesus that he made up.

 

[Soul_Searcher]

Hi 7:30,

Why are you refering to yourself in the third person?

"it starts like this, the bible is supposed to be the word of god, it is the knowledge of good and evil."

But considering the errors in the Bible, we know it's not God's Word.

"In the begining there was adam and eve, they lived on a paradise earth and were given only one rule, do not eat from one tree, the tree that reveals the knowledge of god and evil."

So the story goes...

"and this could be one of those times, the name changing from lucifer to jesus."

Is this what you've been driving at? I don't think it's an idea you should waste any time on.

 

[halfpastseven]

Is this what you've been driving at? I don't think it's an idea you should waste any time on.

no this is not what ive been driving at. This is just a thought that past thru my mind from observing the bible about 6 years ago.i am not a christian or any other religion, all i do is look at things from all diferent kinds of angles, or i should say i use to. This just happens to be one way that i have looked at the story of the bible on my journey thru life, i dont believe in it and i dont expect anyone else to either, but it is such an outrageous view i once had i just wanted to post it and see what others might have to say about it. Although it is kinda pointless on a christian forum, but thats why its under philosophy, but your right its not something that i should waste to much time on, and i dont, but i do think that people dont need to pray to god thru anyone, the relationship one has with god should be a personal one, but maybe thats just me

 

[michabo]

halfpastseven,

The wonderful thing about theology is that anyone - you, Lilly, L. Ron, Rael, anyone - can come up with their own explaination of the world and, once you throw in a magical being or two, then there isn't anything anyone can do to prove you wrong. You could just as easily argue that the whole world was created last Thursday and our memories are just a trick.

However, one bizarre double-standard in theology is that only well-established magical ideas are respected. If you make up your own theology, then you'll be accused of starting a cult. And I'm not sure I disagree.

So a question for you: how could you go about differentiating between the Bible as the word of God or as the word of the devil?

 

[halfpastseven]

i wouldnt determine it either way, the bible is the word of man. and by the way every religion is a cult

 

[Skillganon]

Here's is a Question would God Pray to God?

 

[halfpastseven]

Here's is a Question would God Pray to God?

strange question...pray - to utter or adress a petition to god or another deity.if looked at as the way i look at myself, not saying im god, but if god is anything like me then yes, i adress petitions to myself to perhaps change things about me and if me and god are at all alike then i dont see why he wouldnt, and yes if one believes that there is a god that is on a higher level than god, but no if one believes that god is the all powerfull and all knowing, there would be no reason for it, but then jesus is sapose to be the human form of god and he prayed to god himself which wouldnt really make any sense cuase if god is so powerfull why would he need to change anything or have to ask for something, why would you need to take the time to pray to yourself if you are already in control and know of everything that is happening. but really i have no answer to your question, all i have is ideas. what is your reasoning behind this question?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. He was fully human and God.....humans need to pray and need strength...just as the humaness of Jesus....That pretty much explains Him having to pray.

 

[The Gregorian]

I think that's a bit of an interesting viewpoint... and in fact I do have a similar theory.

I don't BELIEVE Jesus IS lucifer because that would mean God would allow him to write a fairly significant lie... without any rebuttal whatsoever. However... I DO believe Satan has had a significant hand in the error in translation.

See... Satan is very shifty. He saw God send down his son... he saw everything the son went through for us... and he decided not only to hurt us... but to pull the ULTIMATE slap in the face. Satan knows God will stand for no rivals. And throughout Jesus' life he claimed nothing except loyalty to his father... delivering his father's message... dying by his father's command... and directly saying he was a servent of God... Satan has lead certain people to spread around that Jesus is in fact claiming equality to God... Thereby being a rival to the Father. Satan knows he can't win... but can you imagine ANYTHING more insulting than trying to pit God against his own son and most faithful servant?

Honestly I'm impressed by how patient satan is... his intellect is staggering, and he plots in a way I can hardly imagine (and I'm sure he plots in ways I can't... but obviously I don't know about the ways I don't understand)... however, he knows his effort is futile... he can't WIN... so he's trying to take God's son with him by making US believe his son is also a God, therefore forcing God to destroy his own son. Jesus NEVER claimed to be God... he repeatedly said "The Father is Greater than I." Yet, we're being fed propaganda saying "don't believe God, or his messangers... give worship to something other than God..."

Sounds like satan to me.

 

[The Gregorian]

While we're on the subject of theories boardering heresy...

Here's a bit of a morality twister... test your forgiveness, if you will:

We've been lead to believe Jesus... God's son... is his most faithful servent. But what if that weren't the case.

Take Judas for example: Judas was a faithful apostle up until the day he betrayed Jesus. But Jesus knew he had to die. Jesus came in order to serve us... by dying. What if "betrayal" was a mistranslation, or error in story telling. What if Jesus pulled Judas aside and TOLD judas to turn him in. I know, for me, that would be a wrenching task... Would YOU have the loyalty to turn in Jesus when you know he'd be killed? Would you accept thousands of years of people cursing your name, and calling you a traitor... in order to do what NEEDS to be done for Jesus' sacrifice to be realized? Obviously it's just a theory... but IF Jesus TOLD Judas to 'betray' him... does that not make Judas, the betrayer... the most faithful of the apostles?

Keeping that in mind... there is no way we could POSSIBLY appriciate all that God has given us, or is yet to give us if ALL we know is perfection. If life would have been different... if Eve didn't listen to the serpant, and the last 6,000 years have been spent in perfect health and harmony... we couldn't appriciate God's gift, since we couldn't KNOW what it is that isn't ours in the first place. We have to know evil to truly know Good.

It may be that God just knew... and was counting on satan betraying him and causing us this torment in order for us to understand what a gift he really is offering... but what if God ASKED Lucifer to betray him? That would mean satan accepted thousands of years... of not only harming those his master (assuming this illustration) is protecting (this would be an extreme version of spanking your children for them to learn a lesson), but also he would accept thousands of years of being looked at as the ultimate evil... embarassing to say the least.

IF Satan truely was SERVING god by making us know evil so we can understand God's Goodness.... would you be able to forgive him for causing the deaths and suffering of EVERYONE you know... ALL of your ancestors... causing war, plague, famine.... Could you forgive him if God did?


Obviously this is just a theory... something that goes AGAINST what the bible says, so it is obviously not true... but keep in mind you will be shown forgiveness in equal measure to the forgiveness YOU show... If your soul relied on it... could you honestly forgive Satan of all his trespasses, and therefore earn your own forgiveness?

 

[halfpastseven]

I think that's a bit of an interesting viewpoint... and in fact I do have a similar theory.

I don't BELIEVE Jesus IS lucifer because that would mean God would allow him to write a fairly significant lie... without any rebuttal whatsoever. However... I DO believe Satan has had a significant hand in the error in translation.

See... Satan is very shifty. He saw God send down his son... he saw everything the son went through for us... and he decided not only to hurt us... but to pull the ULTIMATE slap in the face. Satan knows God will stand for no rivals. And throughout Jesus' life he claimed nothing except loyalty to his father... delivering his father's message... dying by his father's command... and directly saying he was a servent of God... Satan has lead certain people to spread around that Jesus is in fact claiming equality to God... Thereby being a rival to the Father. Satan knows he can't win... but can you imagine ANYTHING more insulting than trying to pit God against his own son and most faithful servant?

Honestly I'm impressed by how patient satan is... his intellect is staggering, and he plots in a way I can hardly imagine (and I'm sure he plots in ways I can't... but obviously I don't know about the ways I don't understand)... however, he knows his effort is futile... he can't WIN... so he's trying to take God's son with him by making US believe his son is also a God, therefore forcing God to destroy his own son. Jesus NEVER claimed to be God... he repeatedly said "The Father is Greater than I." Yet, we're being fed propaganda saying "don't believe God, or his messangers... give worship to something other than God..."

Sounds like satan to me.

i see what you are saying but another conclusion i once came to is that, jesus and the devil both have to die for our sins, the only difference is that jesus lives on, something else that ties in with my original post is that say jesus was satan maybe what he went thru was in repentance to god because he realized that he was wrong in the first place, and also god alows the devil to do what he does and did, there for how could the devil be evil, maybe its all just part of a test, and why would god let satan challenge him and send him to earth because of his jelousy, it must be because of how loving he is, and maybe the reason everything is the way it is, is because it is a leson for the devil to learn, i dont see how you can punish humans by sending them to a place such as hell, when you gave them free will and placed them in the situation to mess up, like all these kids that grow up around nothing but violence and drugs and curuption and know only that life and see no future for themselves, how can they be held acountable for their actions when they have been placed in such suroundings, if you ask me thats already a so called hell, but maybe thats just me, i dont know

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I think that's a bit of an interesting viewpoint... and in fact I do have a similar theory.

I don't BELIEVE Jesus IS lucifer because that would mean God would allow him to write a fairly significant lie... without any rebuttal whatsoever. However... I DO believe Satan has had a significant hand in the error in translation.

See... Satan is very shifty. He saw God send down his son... he saw everything the son went through for us... and he decided not only to hurt us... but to pull the ULTIMATE slap in the face. Satan knows God will stand for no rivals. And throughout Jesus' life he claimed nothing except loyalty to his father... delivering his father's message... dying by his father's command... and directly saying he was a servent of God... Satan has lead certain people to spread around that Jesus is in fact claiming equality to God... Thereby being a rival to the Father. Satan knows he can't win... but can you imagine ANYTHING more insulting than trying to pit God against his own son and most faithful servant?

Honestly I'm impressed by how patient satan is... his intellect is staggering, and he plots in a way I can hardly imagine (and I'm sure he plots in ways I can't... but obviously I don't know about the ways I don't understand)... however, he knows his effort is futile... he can't WIN... so he's trying to take God's son with him by making US believe his son is also a God, therefore forcing God to destroy his own son. Jesus NEVER claimed to be God... he repeatedly said "The Father is Greater than I." Yet, we're being fed propaganda saying "don't believe God, or his messangers... give worship to something other than God..."

Sounds like satan to me.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Jesus did claim to be God. If He wouldn't have then the pharisees wouldn't have accused Him of blasphemy nor would He have been cruxified.

Plus, claiming He isn't makes grace, forgivness, salvation, repentence, etc....non existant.

 

[platosgogson]

hey halfpasteleven

i read your first post and an imediate thing came to mind. in the bible, jesus is quoted saying 'i am the morning star', now to ordinary folk this may not seem like a big deal, but 'morning star' is the translation from the Latin 'lucifer'.

yes you're right, it would be the biggest slap in the face for Satan to appear as God's son, and lilly of the valley? how can you be sure that god is about love? if satan came down and started spinning some yarn that he was god's son and made everyone loving, that may not be exactly what god had intended, the thing is you don't know. you believe, but you don't know. just as people used to believe the world was flat.

either way, satan can't be that bad a guy, i mean, why hasn't he already destroyed the world? he has enough following and power according to catholic belief.
oh and whoever it was that said that the bible has predicted the first coming of jesus, it has also predicted the way the world is going to end, yet for some reason, religious people don't read revelations.

and if you think god is omniscient, then that means he could be judging us all at judgement day right now! how cool is that?!

olly

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

hey halfpasteleven

i read your first post and an imediate thing came to mind. in the bible, jesus is quoted saying 'i am the morning star', now to ordinary folk this may not seem like a big deal, but 'morning star' is the translation from the Latin 'lucifer'.

yes you're right, it would be the biggest slap in the face for Satan to appear as God's son, and lilly of the valley? how can you be sure that god is about love? if satan came down and started spinning some yarn that he was god's son and made everyone loving, that may not be exactly what god had intended, the thing is you don't know. you believe, but you don't know. just as people used to believe the world was flat.

either way, satan can't be that bad a guy, i mean, why hasn't he already destroyed the world? he has enough following and power according to catholic belief.
oh and whoever it was that said that the bible has predicted the first coming of jesus, it has also predicted the way the world is going to end, yet for some reason, religious people don't read revelations.

and if you think god is omniscient, then that means he could be judging us all at judgement day right now! how cool is that?!

olly

If you want to like and think of the one who wants to kill, destroy, and harm all mankind as good...that't your choice. Also...I do know...

Also...God isn't just love...He is also Just and holy. Also sayig "religious people don't read revelation" is a fallacy. Some do, though not all, I know I read it.

 

[The Gregorian]

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Jesus did claim to be God. If He wouldn't have then the pharisees wouldn't have accused Him of blasphemy nor would He have been cruxified.

Plus, claiming He isn't makes grace, forgivness, salvation, repentence, etc....non existant.

I don't want to hijak the thread, but... keep reading. There are multiple points in John where it DOES say that Jesus is one with the Father JUST AS all of God's servants are one with him. It isn't a physical 'I am the same person' it's an aspect of loyalty. Similarly, it says when you are married you 'become one flesh' (using the same word translated as 'one' before)... my wife and I certainly are NOT physically one person... but we are a union of two people... however I am NOT my wife, nor is my wife me. Likewise, the Father and Son ARE a team. The father has given the son much respect... but the son cannot be interchanged with the father. Also... there are OTHER divine things than the Father... for example: Angels. Angels are divine, spiritual creatures, but they are not God. Just because Jesus ISN'T God doesn't make him meaningless.

If you wish to further discuss trinity, we should really make another thread so as not to hijak this one.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I don't want to hijak the thread, but... keep reading. There are multiple points in John where it DOES say that Jesus is one with the Father JUST AS all of God's servants are one with him. It isn't a physical 'I am the same person' it's an aspect of loyalty. Similarly, it says when you are married you 'become one flesh' (using the same word translated as 'one' before)... my wife and I certainly are NOT physically one person... but we are a union of two people... however I am NOT my wife, nor is my wife me. Likewise, the Father and Son ARE a team. The father has given the son much respect... but the son cannot be interchanged with the father. Also... there are OTHER divine things than the Father... for example: Angels. Angels are divine, spiritual creatures, but they are not God. Just because Jesus ISN'T God doesn't make him meaningless.

If you wish to further discuss trinity, we should really make another thread so as not to hijak this one.

Give a specific verse that says those that serve God are one w/ God Himself...thus saying we are Him...... It's no where in there. There is only one God and we are His servants.

 

[platosgogson]

Give a specific verse that says those that serve God are one w/ God Himself...thus saying we are Him...... It's no where in there. There is only one God and we are His servants.

Lilly, how can you say that's not in there? you're telling me you've sat down and read the new testament and Gospels, all of them? And nowhere does it say that we are one with God?

And how does it feel being somebody's servant? I thought that God gave us free will, therefore making us not his servants. Which is it then? Do we have free will or are we his servants? Make your mind up. And I know that you're probably not going to answer that, instead you're going to counter it with a completely different topic. Although I will be surprised if you do answer it.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lilly, how can you say that's not in there? you're telling me you've sat down and read the new testament and Gospels, all of them? And nowhere does it say that we are one with God?

And how does it feel being somebody's servant? I thought that God gave us free will, therefore making us not his servants. Which is it then? Do we have free will or are we his servants? Make your mind up. And I know that you're probably not going to answer that, instead you're going to counter it with a completely different topic. Although I will be surprised if you do answer it.

Yep, I've read the Gospels and NT. It was no where in there that we are one w/ Him. It mentions being part of His family and heirs and joint heirs, but nothing about being one w/ God for nothing is one w/ God because nothing can be equal to God but God Himself.

When you serve God you are also His child and friend. It's perfectly fine because I see God as a friend and father. We have freewill to obey or disobey. If you obey, then you are considered God's servant. You are making the word 'servant' have a negative conotation when w/ God it's not like that. We aren't slaves.......but servants and we choose to be that. Plus, everything God wants you to do is for your benefit anyway. Plus when you are a servant of God you become a heir and part of His family and when you are part of a family there are certain things you get to take part in and recieve that others don't.

 

[platosgogson]

ook the what do we become the heirs to?