THOUGHTS FOR ISRAEL

[bèlla]

That's why i asked. Suggestion and implication are real things, so i asked to be sure. Accusations?

Tone is central to a message's receipt. Consider your first two sentences. You'll lose most of your audience with that stance. Your leading sentence didn't encourage engagement. 'Talking' to is a common Christian tactic. I don't know who told them it works. But it doesn't. Trust me.

Most Jews decided not to follow YHWH anymore when He gave his Son.
But that's obviously from a Christian perspective.

Have you read the Parable of the Sower? Only 1 out of the 4 soils that heard the Word produced something in response. That's a 75% failure rate. Most people won't respond to the Gospel. Jew or otherwise.

Those who didn't follow Jesus went in a different direction.
They didn't just stick to the Torah.
They did away with the plurality (more persons) of YHWH, because it was deemed too Christian, for example.

There are some beliefs that overlap with Judaism and others that don't. It goes well beyond the Trinity. You are expecting a group of people who had visible manifestations of God and other supernatural occurrences to accept a theology that seems foreign to them. Even the Holy Spirit's appearance is minimized. Everything is God-centered.

I wonder though, if we will ever know the REAL history behind WWII
But after what the Jews did to Russia and their bankster schemes, there was plenty of opposition to the Jewry on which Hitler could build his popularity, even with a Christian twist to it.

You have two things working against you. And it isn't your faith. It's the necessity of listening and the realization that there are things you will never know. Some that people would not utter outside of Jewish ears. That's true of most races.

Maybe it has to do with the newborn circumcision.
I can imagine that may change a person for the rest of his life, being hurt where it hurts 8 days after the shock of being born.
Trauma.
I don't know..

And given your statements regarding various aspects of Jewish culture. I suspect you will remain in the dark. Even if other Jews shared your concerns. Their loyalty to the tribe would keep them silent.

I'm referring to Christians 'worshipping' the state of Israel and supporting everything they do, like claiming all the land God promised them.

Many Christians support Zionism for selfish reasons. Their interests are wholly religious. By any means necessary is an accurate description.

The fact that Judaism is blind to the New Testament doesn't really motivate me to seek their help in understanding the Bible, to be honest.
Maybe an old wine in new sacks vs. new wine in old sacks kind of thing..

I learned more about the bible in the synagogue than elsewhere. They opened up the New Testament to me in many ways. I don't think I would have returned to the church without it. I am convinced of that.

And yes, my experience is very unusual but I think there's a message in it. One that goes beyond buildings, doctrines, and creeds and gets to the heart of what Christ said. Love your neighbor. That is what I received in spades. So much so that I have never felt the same in a church and I've been to several.

I had an opportunity to learn about God free of arguments, pressure,and dogma. Discussing the weekly Torah reading and Parashah was beneficial. It enabled me to hear other perspectives, express my own and challenge my thoughts. It was the Holy Spirit who led me home. I learned how to follow Him in a synagogue. I wasn't dependent on doctrine or what the pastor said. And I wouldn't change that for a thing.

When Christians engage with Jews they're under the impression they need to teach. They're quick to instruct. They often try to impress their views on the other person. They rarely listen. Or ask questions.

There are many things in the Tanakh I would never grasp without seeing them in person. There is a lot that went over my head until I studied with them. It's home for me. That isn't true for most. But it's mine and I'm proud of that.

 

[Hieronymus]

Yes, you win. I'm too busy running the world through the Kabalistic magic(flying my broom on off days), anyway.

Of course you would only ridicule these things...

 

[Robban]

That's why i asked. Suggestion and implication are real things, so i asked to be sure.Accusations?

An eye opener for me was the 1980s documentary "the Other Israel" by Ted Pike, a Christian, who never accused anyone, but only shared what's in the Talmud and how this influences Jewish thinking.
His message is pray for the unbelievers and watch out for Christian Zionism, because Zion is still in opposition to God.
Can't serve 2 Lords.Oh, right..
Well, let's see then.
My posts could often use some nuance.That's unusual, isn't it?Why is that strange?
I think i explained this already.
It's not about race.
It's about ideologies and acting accordingly.
You know the story. We all do.
Most Jews decided not to follow YHWH anymore when He gave his Son.
But that's obviously from a Christian perspective.
Those who didn't follow Jesus went in a different direction.
They didn't just stick to the Torah.
They did away with the plurality (more persons) of YHWH, because it was deemed too Christian, for example.
They went the Pharisee way, with teachings from outside the Bible.There are a few things that are visible in their culture and identity as a people.
And i guess i'm mostly referring to Jewish people in power.
Some call it "the Jewish Question".
It's a very difficult subject. Very controversial too.
Obviously you can't put "the blame" on all of the Jews.
But there are plenty of things powerful Jews have said and done that can find justification in Talmudic teachings.
And i guess when you read the Torah through Talmudic glasses (so to speak) you can find confirmation there too.
Look, we all know Hitler was more or less the devil in the flesh.
I wonder though, if we will ever know the REAL history behind WWII
But after what the Jews did to Russia and their bankster schemes, there was plenty of opposition to the Jewry on which Hitler could build his popularity, even with a Christian twist to it.

Maybe it has to do with the newborn circumcision.
I can imagine that may change a person for the rest of his life, being hurt where it hurts 8 days after the shock of being born.
Trauma.
I don't know...
Opinions and views, as usual, vary enormously...
But it's one of the questions i will ask God, because i fail to see why He would ordain such a cruel (from my mortal perspective) thing.It's not even clear what Christian Zionism means.
More than 1 definition.
I'm referring to Christians 'worshipping' the state of Israel and supporting everything they do, like claiming all the land God promised them.
Well, what can i say...
I think we're going a bit off topic too.
I've learned a lot about the Old Testament too, but not much from Judaists.
But there's a lot to learn about ancient languages and cultures to put things in perspective and context.
The fact that Judaism is blind to the New Testament doesn't really motivate me to seek their help in understanding the Bible, to be honest.
[edit]
It's a different story when a Christian Jew sheds his light on things.
That's interesting.
[/edit]
Maybe an old wine in new sacks vs. new wine in old sacks kind of thing..

I'm looking forward to the day when we will all understand everything.

A note on Talmud from the Rebbe.
It,s a dispute between the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds.
Talmuds disagree.
The method of the Babylonian Talmud.

"He has set me in dark places."
refers to the Babylonian Talmud.

When you begin to learn it you are in a state of darkness,
you must deliberate, ask questions, sort things out until you find the true meaning.
That is the Babylonian Talmud.


The Jerusalem Talmud however,
has no "darkness" you come to the correct understanding
right from the start.
The Jerusalem Talmud is like a well lit room.
The Babylonian Talmud is like an un lit room.


One has to study, to study is work, hard work,
the Sages of old would study so hard they wuld become wet through with sweat.

The danger today is someone clicks on a tangent and some info comes up, after a while they think they are masterminds,
When actually they know nothing.

 

[Hieronymus]

Tone is central to a message's receipt. Consider your first two sentences. You'll lose most of your audience with that stance. Your leading sentence didn't encourage engagement. 'Talking' to is a common Christian tactic. I don't know who told them it works. But it doesn't. Trust me.

I'm sorry, i really don't know what you're referring to.
I started in this topic asking: How about the Talmud?
as a thing that sets Jews and Christians apart.
I elaborated in following posts.
This is usually enough to offend some people, is my experience, no matter how you put it in words.

Have you read the Parable of the Sower? Only 1 out of the 4 soils that heard the Word produced something in response. That's a 75% failure rate. Most people won't respond to the Gospel. Jew or otherwise.

Yep...
But i don't think that passage is meant to be a mathematical equation.
Eventually there will be a great multitude that no one could number.
None the less, it often seems worse than a 75% faillure rate...

There are some beliefs that overlap with Judaism and others that don't. It goes well beyond the Trinity. You are expecting a group of people who had visible manifestations of God and other supernatural occurrences to accept a theology that seems foreign to them. Even the Holy Spirit's appearance is minimized. Everything is God-centered.

Throughout the Old Testament there are quite a few passages that have YHWH as more than 1 person, even simultaneously present at the scene.
I have learned that this was the accepted view among the Jews too, but was dismissed after Christianity became a large movement.
So the Trinity or however you wish to call it, is not 'less God-centred' then the present day 'single person YHWH' of Judaism.

You have two things working against you. And it isn't your faith. It's the necessity of listening and the realization that there are things you will never know. Some that people would not utter outside of Jewish ears. That's true of most races.

I don't know what you mean or how it is a response to what you quoted of me.

And given your statements regarding various aspects of Jewish culture. I suspect you will remain in the dark. Even if other Jews shared your concerns. Their loyalty to the tribe would keep them silent.

It's a bit of a pity you quote me selectively (i.m.h.o).
As for the circumcision, it is written that it is a mystery why God ordained that in particular, to set Israel apart.
So indeed, God keeps us in the dark for now.
But it does raise questions, indeed among Jews too sometimes.

It seems Jews are a bit of a closed community, maybe like Chinese.

Many Christians support Zionism for selfish reasons. Their interests are wholly religious. By any means necessary is an accurate description.

You mean like they think they can 'hitch hike" to heaven on Israel's back ?

I learned more about the bible in the synagogue than elsewhere. They opened up the New Testament to me in many ways. I don't think I would have returned to the church without it. I am convinced of that.

Yet they dismiss Jesus Christ?
That's strange though, isn't it?
I of course don't know what you're referring to when you don't elaborate.
i have learned a lot from Michael Heiser's lectures.
Possibly similar things.
He's a non denominational ancient languages and Bible scholar and religious historian.
You may have heard of him.

And yes, my experience is very unusual but I think there's a message in it. One that goes beyond buildings, doctrines, and creeds and gets to the heart of what Christ said. Love your neighbor. That is what I received in spades. So much so that I have never felt the same in a church and I've been to several.

I stopped 'church shopping' rather early on.
I just accepted that the Word of God is much more alive on the internet, so that's where i try to have a relationship with fellow believers.
But it's a difficult medium..
I'm better at face to face communication.
it is what it is, isn't it?

I had an opportunity to learn about God free of arguments, pressure,and dogma. Discussing the weekly Torah reading and Parashah was beneficial. It enabled me to hear other perspectives, express my own and challenge my thoughts. It was the Holy Spirit who led me home. I learned how to follow Him in a synagogue. I wasn't dependent on doctrine or what the pastor said. And I wouldn't change that for a thing.

When Christians engage with Jews they're under the impression they need to teach. They're quick to instruct. They often try to impress their views on the other person. They rarely listen. Or ask questions.

That's the problem with the letter in the OP too.
Frankly, i leave it up to God.
I know a couple of Jewish people, but they're secular, atheists, agnostics.
I always share my beliefs when the subject comes up, with anyone.
Usually that starts when people say something about God, the Bible or Jesus that is not true (but often popular).
Usually a waste of time and effort though...
But who knows if it planted a seed that will come up later.

There are many things in the Tanakh I would never grasp without seeing them in person. There is a lot that went over my head until I studied with them. It's home for me. That isn't true for most. But it's mine and I'm proud of that.

Good to hear that.
And thanks for the conversation.

 

[bèlla]

I'm sorry, i really don't know what you're referring to.

I know. That's why I mentioned it. Tone comes through in a written piece and verbal ones too. It's the first thing most perceive. If you want your audience to empathize with your point it's best to open with a positive statement unless controversy is your aim. That's harder to pull off than most realize.

Why would you expect a group of Christians to be offended by the Talmud? Most have never read it. Or the entire bible for that matter. And I can say with certainty that the majority of the population on this site aren't Jewish.

So the Trinity or however you wish to call it, is not 'less God-centred' then the present day 'single person YHWH' of Judaism.I don't know what you mean or how it is a response to what you quoted of me.It's a bit of a pity you quote me selectively (i.m.h.o).

It is seen as idolatry by Jews. And I'm not quoting you selectively. There are certain things I'm responding to and others that don't require discussion.

It seems Jews are a bit of a closed community, maybe like Chinese.
You mean like they think they can 'hitch hike" to heaven on Israel's back ?Yet they dismiss Jesus Christ?
That's strange though, isn't it?

Profoundly strange.

i have learned a lot from Michael Heiser's lectures.
Possibly similar things.
He's a non denominational ancient languages and Bible scholar and religious historian.
You may have heard of him.

No, I haven't. I limit what I listen to these days.

I stopped 'church shopping' rather early on.
I just accepted that the Word of God is much more alive on the internet, so that's where i try to have a relationship with fellow believers.

I wasn't church shopping. I attended church to determine if that's where I belonged. There are some that would say yes and others who'd admit they don't know. I had a long period of discernment. I didn't want to be influenced by anyone. I needed to hear from the Lord instead.

But it's a difficult medium..
I'm better at face to face communication.
it is what it is, isn't it?That's the problem with the letter in the OP too.

I think the absence of decorum leaves much to be desired. But my tolerance of ignorance is minimal.

Frankly, i leave it up to God.
I know a couple of Jewish people, but they're secular, atheists, agnostics.
I always share my beliefs when the subject comes up, with anyone.

I listen and share experiences that apply to the subject we're discussing. I don't move in a different direction or refute what they've said. But I have infinite belief in God's ability to get His people. I don't believe that I'm the only way that will happen. I let the Holy Spirit guide me through divine appointments.

Usually that starts when people say something about God, the Bible or Jesus that is not true (but often popular).
Usually a waste of time and effort though...
But who knows if it planted a seed that will come up later.
Good to hear that.
And thanks for the conversation.

It's often said that atheists make the best apologists. Their ability to debate can't be denied. I never went that far. I was agnostic with a foot away from joining them. I've studied and practiced a lot of religious traditions. That allows me to converse with their followers peacefully. I know where they're coming from. But that's not my calling. I'm needed elsewhere.

You're welcome.

 

[Hieronymus]

A note on Talmud from the Rebbe.
It,s a dispute between the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds.
Talmuds disagree.

Thanks for the reminder.
It seems i forgot that.
Someone told me before.

The method of the Babylonian Talmud.

"He has set me in dark places."
refers to the Babylonian Talmud.

When you begin to learn it you are in a state of darkness,
you must deliberate, ask questions, sort things out until you find the true meaning.
That is the Babylonian Talmud.


The Jerusalem Talmud however,
has no "darkness" you come to the correct understanding
right from the start.
The Jerusalem Talmud is like a well lit room.
The Babylonian Talmud is like an un lit room.


One has to study, to study is work, hard work,
the Sages of old would study so hard they wuld become wet through with sweat.

Okay, but how can i approach this matter?
It's unfortunate that the narrative of the Jews always being the victims of injustice has been shoved down our throats for ever here in Europe after the 2nd WW.
At a certain point you see it is a mandatory narrative, which make you question it.
That's when you start to look differently at it and makes curious about the hidden side of things.
And Talmud or not, there are unpleasant surprises hidden in history.
The risk is to swing over to the other extreme view point.
But eventually you should end up somewhere in the middle.
Either way, i wanted to know more.
But you're right, people speak of the nasty bits of "the Talmud", and pointing to the un-Biblical side of what formed Jewish culture, morals and values.
>> This doesn't mean "all Jews are evil Talmud followers" obviously.
But which Talmud is it then?
Unfortunately i'm not able or even capable to study both versions (or even 1).
So i'm dependent on other people who have.
But i don't even know what Talmud Ted Pike made his well intentioned (i.m.o.) documentary about...

The danger today is someone clicks on a tangent and some info comes up, after a while they think they are masterminds,
When actually they know nothing.

True.
That's a trap i have to be sure to avoid too.
And sometimes i step into it too, but i can step out of it too.

I think you understand what my general question is though.
Evil religious teachings are found all over the world.
The Jews are indeed a special people.
Can't avoid generalisations here, but they're smart and ambitious, above average (on average).
I just want to understand what caused them to do things that made them so hated around the world throughout history.
I think it's because of 'evil ideologies'.
So where did those come from?
I don't believe in the Khazar myth by the way.

 

[dlamberth]

The Jerusalem Talmud is like a well lit room.
The Babylonian Talmud is like an un lit room.

Are these two spiritual trajectories anything like Cataphatic Theology and Apophatic Theology?

 

[Robban]

Are these two spiritual trajectories anything like Cataphatic Theology and Apophatic Theology?

Well, have no idea what they are.

 

[Robban]

Thanks for the reminder.
It seems i forgot that.
Someone told me before.Okay, but how can i approach this matter?
It's unfortunate that the narrative of the Jews always being the victims of injustice has been shoved down our throats for ever here in Europe after the 2nd WW.
At a certain point you see it is a mandatory narrative, which make you question it.
That's when you start to look differently at it and makes curious about the hidden side of things.
And Talmud or not, there are unpleasant surprises hidden in history.
The risk is to swing over to the other extreme view point.
But eventually you should end up somewhere in the middle.
Either way, i wanted to know more.
But you're right, people speak of the nasty bits of "the Talmud", and pointing to the un-Biblical side of what formed Jewish culture, morals and values.
>> This doesn't mean "all Jews are evil Talmud followers" obviously.
But which Talmud is it then?
Unfortunately i'm not able or even capable to study both versions (or even 1).
So i'm dependent on other people who have.
But i don't even know what Talmud Ted Pike made his well intentioned (i.m.o.) documentary about...True.
That's a trap i have to be sure to avoid too.
And sometimes i step into it too, but i can step out of it too.

I think you understand what my general question is though.
Evil religious teachings are found all over the world.
The Jews are indeed a special people.
Can't avoid generalisations here, but they're smart and ambitious, above average (on average).
I just want to understand what caused them to do things that made them so hated around the world throughout history.
I think it's because of 'evil ideologies'.
So where did those come from?
I don't believe in the Khazar myth by the way.

It may help to know,

"The entire people of Israel comprise a singel soul,
only the bodies seperate."

Like a bicycle wheel, at the outer rim the spokes are seperated, but at the hub they are as one.

I think if one was to dig one would find that it is Torah that
is the cause of all hostility, No Torah, no Jew.
No Jew, no Torah.

Nation throughout history have wanted to get rid of Torah,

which is insane, it is Torah that is keeping this world in existence.

"It is a people that dwell alone,
and shall not be reckoned among the nations."

(The Moabite prophet Balaam on the people of israel
Numbers 23:9)

This will not satisfy your enquiry but it is very deep.

 

[Hieronymus]

I know. That's why I mentioned it.

Oh please...
You said "my first 2 centences".
Which first 2 centences??
I wrote several posts.
Why so vague?

Tone comes through in a written piece and verbal ones too. It's the first thing most perceive. If you want your audience to empathize with your point it's best to open with a positive statement unless controversy is your aim. That's harder to pull off than most realize.

Yep, but i assume we're all grown ups here who wish to discuss things, so i expect the content is the subject of the discussion.
But i know my 'style' can be a bit abrasive...
Maybe i did too many pointless discussions hovering around points, so i just to cut to the chase..
Maybe a cultural difference too, i'm Dutch (we can be a bit blunt).
You come across a little 'not so modest' sometimes, by the way.
But that's okay.

Why would you expect a group of Christians to be offended by the Talmud?

It turns out the first question is WHICH Talmud...
I have no idea to what extend both are similar either...

I think i explained my position quite well in my previous post in reply to Robban.

To be more specific, things about the Gentiles and about Jesus and his mother.
Also things having to do with underaged sex...

I realize there are people out to put Jews in a bad light, put mildly, so they quote mine anything that helps their cause.
But the antipathy itself has a cause too.
I just want to understand the why and how so i can put it to rest, basically.
But regarding this topic, i think it would be important to know for Chrisians to know too, so they can decide what to think of Judaism and Zionism etc..
More understanding is a good thing.

It is seen as idolatry by Jews. And I'm not quoting you selectively. There are certain things I'm responding to and others that don't require discussion.

No problem, but sometimes it ends up only representing a part of what i said.

Profoundly strange.

Haha

No, I haven't. I limit what I listen to these days.

Me too.
It seems the brain is full..
I did most of my research some 10 years ago, when i was in dire need of truth.
It was 2 months of full time (all day basically) searching, watching, reading, verifying, various angles binge browsing, branching off into rabbit holes, to try and find out what makes the world tick.
Gradually i spent less time on my quest for truth.
It's how i discovered the truth of the Bible and Jesus Christ as my only hope.
I couldn't believe it.
I had been dismissing everything to do with it my whole life.
But that turned out to be based on propaganda, which is everywhere....

I wasn't church shopping. I attended church to determine if that's where I belonged.

We mean the same thing.

There are some that would say yes and others who'd admit they don't know. I had a long period of discernment. I didn't want to be influenced by anyone. I needed to hear from the Lord instead.

Good you found your place.
Can't really say i have, yet..

I think the absence of decorum leaves much to be desired. But my tolerance of ignorance is minimal.

Meh, only when it's by choice.

I listen and share experiences that apply to the subject we're discussing. I don't move in a different direction or refute what they've said. But I have infinite belief in God's ability to get His people. I don't believe that I'm the only way that will happen. I let the Holy Spirit guide me through divine appointments.

Should be that way.
Often still a battle between too much passion / verve and letting myself be guided..

It's often said that atheists make the best apologists. Their ability to debate can't be denied. I never went that far. I was agnostic with a foot away from joining them. I've studied and practiced a lot of religious traditions. That allows me to converse with their followers peacefully. I know where they're coming from. But that's not my calling. I'm needed elsewhere.

Well, my angle is usually trying to explain why people would believe in Jesus Christ at all, because most people simply have no clue, just as i never had a clue.
I was never an atheist though.
I was one of those weed smoking neo hippy Euro Buddhists with a mild fascination for the spiritual (meditation, lucid dreaming (or attempts to lucid dreaming), the paranormal).
Popular beliefs nowadays.
But quite ego-centric and risky when you open your doors to the spiritual.
Weed is legal in the Netherlands, by the way.
It's a great pacifier for free minds...

You're welcome.

So are you.

 

[Robban]

It may help to know,

"The entire people of Israel comprise a singel soul,
only the bodies seperate."

Like a bicycle wheel, at the outer rim the spokes are seperated, but at the hub they are as one.

I think if one was to dig one would find that it is Torah that
is the cause of all hostility, No Torah, no Jew.
No Jew, no Torah.

Nation throughout history have wanted to get rid of Torah,

which is insane, it is Torah that is keeping this world in existence.

"It is a people that dwell alone,
and shall not be reckoned among the nations."

(The Moabite prophet Balaam on the people of israel
Numbers 23:9)

This will not satisfy your enquiry but it is very deep.

It may be mentioned that there is a "spiritual" battle too.

When Moses ascended to the heavens to fetch the Torah,

the angels did not want to part with it.

They screamed, "What,s a human doing here?"
(they did not want to hand it over)

When the people of Israel said,
"All that G-d has spoken, we will do and we will hear."

Giving precedence to "we will do" over "we will hear."

A heavenly voice issued forth and exclaimed,
"Who revealed to my children this secret, which is known only to the angels?"