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Thoughts concerning counterfactuals in scripture.

moonbeam

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Thoughts concerning counterfactuals in scripture.


Does the counterfactual statement uttered have to be true (in fact)... to be true?

Is not the propositional content of the counterfactual statement, itself, spoken with a particular intent and purpose in view?

That particular intended purpose achieved, makes the relevance of whether the statement was true or false, irrelevant.

What then is the distinction between the above, and a lie?

The distinction I believe is who utters the counterfactual.

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St_Worm2

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Thoughts concerning counterfactuals in scripture.


Does the counterfactual statement uttered have to be true (in fact)... to be true?

Is not the propositional content of the counterfactual statement, itself, spoken with a particular intent and purpose in view?

That particular intended purpose achieved, makes the relevance of whether the statement was true or false, irrelevant.

What then is the distinction between the above, and a lie?

The distinction I believe is who utters the counterfactual.

Hi Moonbeam, counterfactual statements that must be received as absolute truth/dogma by the "faithful" is the hallmark of the RCC's Magisterium, so yes, the persons or groups (both in this particular case since the Pope is the reigning voice of the Magisterium) who make these utterances is/are all-important.

So that I know we are on the same page before continuing, did you want to discuss the counterfactual statements of the RCC in particular, or the "what-if's" that we are all guilty of to one degree or another, in general? Or both? Or something different all together .. :scratch:

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
 
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AMR

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I do not think the OP has anything to do with Romanism per se, other than their acceptance of Molinism's "middle knowledge". There are Protestants, e.g., William Lane Craig, who hold Molinistic views, in error in my opinion.

The plain fact is that pure possibilities, posed prior to the decree of God, are literally nothing...no things..logical hypotheses. Nothing can be known or unknown as actual in this scenario. This in no way diminishes the omniscience of God, because it is not an unknowable "something", but just nothing at all. Contrary propositions standing prior to the decree of God to actualize one or the other are not entities, and thus are neither true or false, nor indeed, knowable--such propositions are indifferent to truth or falsehood.

Craig and others refer to the counterfactuals of creaturely freedom (CFs): Knowing what any possible agent would do in any possible circumstances, God can have complete providential control over the events that occur by knowing how the history of the world would go given any creative decision He might make about which circumstances to cause to be actual, and by then making that initial creative decision. Yet human libertarian freedom is obviously also maintained.

But, foreknowledge is grounded in something that actually happens, and it is the occurrence of that future event that sanctions the foreknowledge of it. On the other hand, whatever grounds the truth of counterfactuals of freedom is something other than an actually occurring event. The indeterminateness of counterfactual states of affairs in virtue of which counterfactuals of freedom are true is therefore of a wholly different order from the indeterminateness of future states of affairs in virtue of which future factuals of freedom are true. Though the latter are not yet determinate, they nevertheless will be.

Even granting that there are some CF’s with actual (true) antecedents whose truth might in principle be determined by actual agents it seems to be such that God could not know them pre-volitionally, if He must directly perceive their grounds. For until God decides which agents and which circumstances to cause to be actual, there aren’t any actual decisions that God could in principle know as the grounds of these CF’s. Since middle knowledge is meant to be the aid by which God determines the actual world, and yet it seems as if He could not have this knowledge logically prior to determining the actuality of a particular possible world, “middle knowledge” seems both incorrectly described and unhelpful for providential creation decisions.

I believe that the Molinist view of providence should be rejected because there are good reasons to think that there are not any (and certainly not enough) true counterfactuals of freedom. According to Molinism, foreknowledge is nothing more than the causally impotent byproduct of God’s creative act of will.
 
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moonbeam

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Hi
So that I know we are on the same page before continuing, did you want to discuss the counterfactual statements of the RCC in particular, or the "what-if's" that we are all guilty of to one degree or another, in general? Or both? Or something different all together .. :scratch:


What if... the what ifs... were not what ifs at all?

But were... in fact... nothing at all (in fact).

Yet useful... in that they achieved a particular intended purpose... by elicitation.

A question from the OP - What then is the distinction between the above, and a lie?

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moonbeam

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For the purpose of clarification regards the OP… the comments made there and in my post above, are, primarily, and foremost, directed at the counterfactuals uttered by God, whether in the flesh or otherwise, as in the well known example below… (thought there is further application)


Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee….[Matthew 11:21-24]


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AMR

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"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." (Matthew 23:37)

1. If these people Jesus is speaking about are the elect, why were they unwilling to be gathered under his wing?

2. If these people were not the elect, why would Jesus want them gathered under his wing?


"Again, when the sophists seize on this passage, to prove free will, and to set aside the secret predestination of God, the answer is easy. “God wills to gather all men,” say they; “and therefore all are at liberty to come, and their will does not depend on the election of God.”

I reply: The will of God, which is here mentioned, must be judged from the result. For since by his word he calls all men indiscriminately to salvation, and since the end of preaching is, that all should betake themselves to his guardianship and protection, it may justly be said that he wills to gather all to himself. It is not, therefore, the secret purpose of God, but his will, which is manifested by the nature of the word, that is here described; for, undoubtedly, whomsoever he efficaciously wills to gather, he inwardly draws by his Spirit, and does not merely invite by the outward voice of man.

If it be objected, that it is absurd to suppose the existence of two wills in God, I reply, we fully believe that his will is simple and one; but as our minds do not fathom the deep abyss of secret election, in accommodation to the capacity of our weakness, the will of God is exhibited to us in two ways. And I am astonished at the obstinacy of some people, who, when in many passages of Scripture they meet with that figure of speech (ἀνθρωποπάθεια) which attributes to God human feelings, take no offense, but in this case alone refuse to admit it. But as I have elsewhere treated this subject fully, that I may not be unnecessarily tedious, I only state briefly that, whenever the doctrine, which is the standard of union, is brought forward, God wills to gather all, that all who do not come may be inexcusable."

See the fuller treatment: here

God is not willing something that did not come to pass. More from the source above:

"I freely acknowledge that Christ is speaking of the revealed will of God, when He says, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered thy children together, . . . and ye would not.” For He is upbraiding the Jews with the same ingratitude and hardness of heart as He had before done in the song of Moses (Exodus 15:17, etc.). And we know full well that God did in reality bestow on the Jewish nation all the blessings which the words of that song expresses, seeing that, by giving them His law, by the ordinances of His worship, and by the many benefits which He conferred on that people, and by which He bound them to Himself, He protected them, as it were, by the overshadowing of His wings; and He would still have done so, had not their indomitable obstinacy and obduracy carried them away from Him. After, therefore, Christ had testified His will so often and in so many different ways, spoken in order to win a perverse nation to their obedience, but all in vain; it is with the utmost justice that He complains of their ingratitude.

For, as to your restricting all these things to the lifetime of Christ, this you do with your usual ignorance of these divine things. Just as if Christ were not the true God, who, from the beginning, had not ceased to spread the wings of grace over His own elect people! But here you, in a moment, conclude that, if there were another and secret will in Christ, while He thus addressed Jerusalem, the whole life of Christ must have been an inconsistency. Just as if, to allure by the voice and by kindnesses, and yet to leave the heart untouched by the inspiration of His secret Spirit, were in Christ diverse and contrary acts!

But, that the absurdity and futility of your calumny may the more plainly appear, answer me, I pray you, this question: Where does Christ complain that He was mistaken or deceived by the event, that the vine, from which He had expected grapes, brought forth wild grapes? What answer have you to give, noble teacher and skillful rhetorician? Will you impute ignorance to Christ, to avoid making Him speak falsely? What! did the Jews entirely prevent and defeat the purposes of God? Why, according to you, the blessed God was sitting in doubt all the time as to what the event would be, and that event quite deceived and surprised Him at last. No I nor will it at all alter the state of the case if you make the saying of Christ, which He speaks to the fact and to the state of Jerusalem, refer to the secret foreknowledge of God."​

Our Lord here speaks in the divided sense. The will of Christ in this passage is not to be taken as his divine will, for no one resists the divine will, rather it is his human will, of his will as a man, subordinate to the divine will, a human will not always fulfilled. Turretin (Institutes, vol. 2) is instructive:


Although Christ professes that “he had wished to gather together the children of Jerusalem, and they would not” (Matthew 23:37), it does not follow that grace is resistible.

(1) Jerusalem is here openly distinguished from her children and by it are denoted the elders, scribes, priests and other leaders of the city (who are gifted with the better name of city [as Matthew 2:1, 3] and who wished to be considered the fathers of the people). Nor does Christ say that those whom he wished to gather together were unwilling to be gathered together but only that Jerusalem was unwilling that her children should be gathered and “thou wouldst not” (kai ouk ethelesate —to wit, ye leaders).

And thus Christ does not so much complain of those who being called had not come, as of those who resisted the calling of others as much as they could (the key of knowledge being taken away), not entering as to themselves and prohibiting others who entered (i.e. who desired to enter) as much as in them lay, as we read in Luke 11:52. But still Christ did not cease, notwithstanding the resistance of the leaders of the city; to gather whom he wished, as Augustine has it (Enchiridion 24 [97] [FC 2:449-5O; PL 40.277]).

(2) Although Jerusalem is not distinguished from her children, but is taken for the inhabitants themselves, it would not follow that they resisted efficacious grace, both because not the decretive but the preceptive will is denoted (which repeatedly put them in mind of their duty) and because “gathering together” differs from “conversion.” The former pertains to the external call by which men are collected into one by the word and brought into fellowship with the church. The latter pertains to the internal call wrought by the Spirit whom men cannot resist. Christ indeed wished them to do what he commanded (i.e. it would be pleasing to him) and he had also decreed to command it. But still he was unwilling as to the event (i.e., he had not decreed that the thing which he had commanded should actually be done). For, if he had seriously wished it, no reason can be given why they would not have been gathered together since no one can resist his will.”

Confusion over this passage should fade when one considers the passage in John 11 about Lazarus. In the passage from John 11 we see that Jesus wept over Lazarus’ condition. Our Lord was not indifferent to the situation, though He, as the God of all life and sustainer of creation, was the one who appointed Lazarus’ death. The two senses are vibrant in John 11, and likewise should be in this passage from Matthew as well.
 
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moonbeam

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Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee….[Matthew 11:21-24]




The two examples of counterfactuals which Jesus spoke in the example given above must have been decreed, to be uttered by him/Him, at the appointed time for it to occur (which it did)...therefore, these particular counterfactuals, were actualised, as decreed, by the Fathers determinate purpose, and will.

These counterfactuals, than, can not be considered a non entity, or indifferent to truth or falsehood.

That the counterfactual uttered, references a past event or state of affairs in the logical, chronological, sequential, revealing of the Fathers determinate purpose and will (His decrees actualised) ...and is at once at variance with historical events...[historical events being nothing more than that previously determinded, decreed, and actualised to occur in/at that past event or state of affairs]

It would appear, apparently, that there is some grounds for considering the counterfactuals uttered as either false statements [not my position] historically inaccurate...or indicative of a degree of creaturely freedom which scripture denies and makes Calvinist uneasy.

Or perhaps there is another avenue whereby these perplexing statements can be reconciled ?

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AMR

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Nothing in the passage states, per your implied existence of a true counterfactual of creaturely freedom, that "they would have {freely} repented...".

We Calvinists do not draw Molinist distinctions between possible and feasible worlds. To the Calvinist all worlds are the same in number because creaturely choices, which are always necessary and never free (in the libertarian free will sense), do not violate human responsibility. Unlike the Molinist, tp the Calvinist any possible world would have been feasible for God to actualize had God wanted.

To claim this is a true counterfactual one must ask, "What sort of rebuke is it to say that God would have granted unmerited favor to a group of unworthy sinners had He performed miracles before them that were performed before another group that did not respond to such miracles in repentance and faith?" Are we to conclude that Jesus thought that there were some people who never had the opportunity to repent, but who would have done so under different circumstances? This makes no sense at all.

Our Lord's point was that the people of His day were even more hardened than those in Tyre and Sidon. Hence what is presumed to be a true counterfactual is but nothing more than a propositional fact of the about the actual world.

Unless I am not being clear in my responses-- there are no true counterfactuals of creaturely freedom within Scripture, despite attempts by Molinists and others to declare otherwise. ;)
 
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moonbeam

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Hence what is presumed to be a true counterfactual is but nothing more than a propositional fact of the about the actual world.


Exactly my point… ;)


All of the words that Jesus utters are necessarily spirit, truth, and life.

The propositional content of the counterfactuals uttered must encompass these attributes as a logical necessity.

The past is a irreversible fact of the temporal sphere we occupy...even for the Molinist who shares it with this Calvinist.

Therefore the truth component of the counterfactual Jesus utters…must...be logically definable, and grounded, with full acceptance of historical facts...and yet equally and necessarily applicable to His hearers...i.e. Sodom was certainly destroyed and was not present at the time Jesus spoke.

Which leaves us with the attributes of spirit and life.

Of course the word of God is a sharp double edged sword...it cuts both ways.

Rebuke for those deserving...and life for those so blessed.


So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. … [Isaiah 55:11

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