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Thoughts about "Date Setting" and Daniel 12

taikachanz

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Secondly, in 688AD, Israel was no longer the chosen people of God. It had ceased to be so after 34AD. So whatever happened then (in 688) and there (in Jerusalem) could not have anything to do with the prophecy. I find it interested that your interpretation ends 1948. This is the deceptive futuricist interpretation.

Sorry, but I meant to respond to this long before now but I got wrapped up in other issues.

"My" interpretation does not end in 1948. Please don't distort my findings. I presented this as a coencidence to what I had already presented concerning the Daniel 12:11-12 prophecy in which I stated that there had to be two events taking place for this prophect to commence:

1, the taking away of the daily
2 the setting up of the abomination of desolation

Event 1 was fulfilled spiritually by Christ in 34 AD and physically in 70 AD when the Romans sacked the Temple
Event 2 was (by my estimation and research) fulfilled in 688 AD when the Muslims began building the Dome of the Rock upon the Temple Mount, Isreal holy place, for which the prophecy was intended and given as a marker in prophetic time. We, the new Isreal, inherited these prophecies but that iheritence did not change the nature of the prophecy, therefore this timeline remains.

Now I only showed, as an interesting side bit, the "coencidental" correlation of a 1260 day time prophecy that ended on 1948 when added to 688 and also tied it in with the creation of the UN and the reformation of Israel in its homeland once again.

If you want the timeline for the Daniel 12:11-12 prophecy it is as follows

34 AD Crucifiction of Christ or 70 AD the Temple sacked by Rome = the taking away of the Daily
688 AD Dome of the rock built upon the Temple mount = Setting up of the abomination of desolation and the beginning of the 1290/1335 days prophecy
1978 AD - the end of the 1290 Day portion of the prophecy - Pope John Paul II elected Pope

2023 AD - the end of the 1335 portion of the prophecy - the end of days.(the year Christ returns)

There it is. Make your determination, study it, pray about it, but don't just reject it because it doesn't fit you mindset at this time.
 
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OntheDL

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OnTheDL, I'm slightly confused on your understanding of the daily when you stated that the more you study what the pioneers beleived, you see it to be truth... sister White clearly states that the correct view of the daily was what the pioneers taught, which was paganism... just wondering your thoughts.
I think the confusion is what Ellen White was actually supporting.

I see no evidence of Ellen White actually support the view of 'daily' was paganism. Even in the same quote, she emphasized on the correctness of the time ending in 1844.

Then I saw in relation to the “daily” (Dan 8:12) that the word “sacrifice” was supplied by man’s wisdom, and does not belong to the text, and that the Lord gave the proper view of it to those who gave the judgment hour cry. When union existed, before 1844, nearly all were united on the correct view of the daily; but in the confusion since 1844, other views have been embraced, and darkness and confusion followed. Time has not been a test since 1844, and it will never again be a test. ---Early Writings, pp. 74-75.

I think the point of contention here is time, not paganism.

When the later the same issue was brought up, she simply said she had no light on it.

“The Lord showed me that that period was right, that they had the correct time for the “daily,” and that there would never be another time test and ... that they had the right view of the daily as to that period of time”. (Statement of A. G. Daniells, Sept. 25, 1931, in White Archives.)

When later asked by Haskell who rejected the later view after 1844, she had this to say"

To you also I say that this subject [THE IDENTITY OF THE "DAILY" OF DANIEL 8.] should not be agitated at this time. No, my brother, I feel that at this crisis in our experience that chart which you have had republished should not be circulated. You have made a mistake in this matter. Satan is determinedly at work to bring about issues that will create confusion. There are those who would be delighted to see our ministers at an issue on this question, and they would make much of it. {9MR 106.3}
I have been instructed that regarding what might be said on either side of this question, silence at this time is eloquence. Satan is watching for an opportunity to create division among our leading ministers. It was a mistake to publish the chart until you could all get together and come to an agreement concerning the matter. You have not acted wisely in bringing to the front a subject that must create discussion and the bringing out of various opinions, for every item will be strained and made to mean something that will only mean injury to the cause. We have all we can do to handle the false statements of those who have given evidence of their willingness to bear false witness. {9MR 106.4}
Elder Haskell, I am unable to define clearly the points that are questioned. Let us not agitate a subject that will give the impression that as a people we hold varied opinions, and thus open the way for those to work who wish to leave the impression on minds that we are not led by God. It will also be a source of temptation to those who are not thoroughly converted, and will lead to the making of rash moves. {9MR 107.1}

Note the term she used was 'gathering' not 'scattering'. I think it's stronger evidence that she supported the papal view. This also goes together with the 2300 vision in context which ends in 1844.

I have a few problems with the paganism view. The daily is in context with the little horn. So the troddening down of truth must start with rise of the papal power, not the persecution of Israel with the paganism. And the judgment is given on the little horn power. This is in harmony with Revelation. The view of the daily being paganism violates the law of first mention (on daily, tamid being paganism, not the daily service in the sanctuary). I have considered the paganism view before. But the daily being the ministry of Jesus casting down by the papal power is more biblical and I see no clear evidence of SOP support of one way or another.

Additionally the greater light was given after 1844 concerning the sanctuary. Those before 1844 could not have interpreted the daily as the Christ's ministry in heavenly since they were not given the light on the sanctuary until after 1844's great disappointment. So my definition of pioneers includes specifically those who received the greater light after 1844.

As an aside, another aspect to throw in if you don't think timelines can be within timelines is little understood 2520 prophesy of the scattering and the gathering that is on both the 1843 chart as well as the 1850.... that is a facinating study that shows, without a doubt, that 1844 was the gathering of God's people again into a new covenanted relationship with Him.
I think I answered your question with my thoughts above.
 
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OntheDL

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Sorry, but I meant to respond to this long before now but I got wrapped up in other issues.

"My" interpretation does not end in 1948. Please don't distort my findings. I presented this as a coencidence to what I had already presented concerning the Daniel 12:11-12 prophecy in which I stated that there had to be two events taking place for this prophect to commence:

1, the taking away of the daily
2 the setting up of the abomination of desolation

Event 1 was fulfilled spiritually by Christ in 34 AD and physically in 70 AD when the Romans sacked the Temple
Event 2 was (by my estimation and research) fulfilled in 688 AD when the Muslims began building the Dome of the Rock upon the Temple Mount, Isreal holy place, for which the prophecy was intended and given as a marker in prophetic time. We, the new Isreal, inherited these prophecies but that iheritence did not change the nature of the prophecy, therefore this timeline remains.

Now I only showed, as an interesting side bit, the "coencidental" correlation of a 1260 day time prophecy that ended on 1948 when added to 688 and also tied it in with the creation of the UN and the reformation of Israel in its homeland once again.

If you want the timeline for the Daniel 12:11-12 prophecy it is as follows

34 AD Crucifiction of Christ or 70 AD the Temple sacked by Rome = the taking away of the Daily
688 AD Dome of the rock built upon the Temple mount = Setting up of the abomination of desolation and the beginning of the 1290/1335 days prophecy
1978 AD - the end of the 1290 Day portion of the prophecy - Pope John Paul II elected Pope

2023 AD - the end of the 1335 portion of the prophecy - the end of days.(the year Christ returns)

There it is. Make your determination, study it, pray about it, but don't just reject it because it doesn't fit you mindset at this time.

Both the bible and spirit of prophecy declared there is no more time prophecy beyond 1844. I'm sorry I don't subscribe to what you believe. There is no more to say on it.
 
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taikachanz

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Both the bible and spirit of prophecy declared there is no more time prophecy beyond 1844. I'm sorry I don't subscribe to what you believe. There is no more to say on it.
Ths spirit of prophecy is not the final authority, and I find nowhere in the bible where it says there are no more time prophecies "extending" after 1844. It may have been interpreted that way, but that does not make it so. Nor does what I am presenting definitive, but I still believe investigation into it is needed. But because reliance is more so on what SOP has said and what the early pioneers have deduced then what the bible presents and the unfolding of history it is being tossed aside without a glance.

Fact is there were no more time prophecies "presented" after the revelation of Jesus given to John. Wording is everything if you want to make yourself clear on a point. SOP (EGW) sometimes wasn't too clear in some of her writings. Thank you.
 
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OntheDL

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Ths spirit of prophecy is not the final authority, and I find nowhere in the bible where it says there are no more time prophecies "extending" after 1844. It may have been interpreted that way, but that does not make it so. Nor does what I am presenting definitive, but I still believe investigation into it is needed. But because reliance is more so on what SOP has said and what the early pioneers have deduced then what the bible presents and the unfolding of history it is being tossed aside without a glance.

Fact is there were no more time prophecies "presented" after the revelation of Jesus given to John. Wording is everything if you want to make yourself clear on a point. SOP (EGW) sometimes wasn't too clear in some of her writings. Thank you.

The spirit of prophecy is not Ellen White. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, Rev 19:10.

The futuricist interpretation is not biblical, it's not even logical.

Look, in our study of the scriptures, it needs to be confined by the inspiration. I didn't always come to the same conclusion given by the spirit of Prophecy. And I didn't always like it. But when I humbled myself to be teachable, I saw greater light.
 
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taikachanz

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The spirit of prophecy is not Ellen White. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, Rev 19:10.

You're right, the SOP is the testimony of Jesus, but I've been an SDA long enough to know that when SDA preachers mention SOP they mean EGW, it's as obvious at the nose on my face. Anybody who is an SDA and doesn't admit this "fact" is deceiving themselves.

The futuricist interpretation is not biblical, it's not even logical.

Where did you get the idea that I support the "futurist" interpretation of the bible? I support the historicist interpretation because it is the only interpretation that makes sense. When you study prophecy side by side with history you see prophecy laid out clearly. This is way I don't believe the Daniel 12:11-12 prophecy has yet been fulfilled because it clearly shows the end of the history of man on this world, as does the prophecy in Daniel 2, and the world is still here and so are we. History has not ended and therefore prophecy has not come to an end. Logic dictates this to be so. God gave us brains to use, let's use them.

Look, in our study of the scriptures, it needs to be confined by the inspiration. I didn't always come to the same conclusion given by the spirit of Prophecy. And I didn't always like it. But when I humbled myself to be teachable, I saw greater light.

And who determines who is inspired and who is not? I have not denied the inspiration of EGW, nor of any of the other prophets. But it seems the determined effort of the present day "leaders" to make it their job to dictate who and who is not inspired, and it seems only those who 100% agree with the view of the "remnant" church are and will be considered inspired. Sorry, even before EGW and the pioneers of the SDA church this problem was encountered, and anyone who presents any different opinion of any denomination they are from will face the same problem. Inspiration is from God, ONLY, and it is ONLY through God that "Present Truth" can and will be presented, we only need to be open to it and we need to proof it. What I have presented has not yet been prooffed by anybody, except by the old standby of sticking to what was taught before with out so much as a glance.

Take Daniel 2 for example; it shows King Neb's statue and Daniel explains it all the way to the end. And what is the end? The statue is distroyed by the stone that is made without hands and it is COMPLETELY OBLITERATED, ending all kingdoms upon the earth. At least that is what is taught. In the other prophecys of Daniel we are only taken in history to the wounding of the "little horn" and the "cleansing of the temple". These could not have been the ending of the earth because Jesus has not yet returned, therefore there must be more and that more is shown to us in Daniel 12:11-12. So, tell, me, where in history would this prophecy commence if it doesn't commence when William Miller said it commenced and is supported by the pioneers of SDAs?

Reevaluation of the "abomination of desolation" is needed. I have done this and so have others. I'm not alone in this eventhough the others may not be SDA, but then all that supported Miller weren't of his faith either. What I presented at the beginning of this thread I believe and will support until concrete evidence can be shown to prove otherwise.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I am not going to be able to prove to you what you are seeking.... the only thing I can offer is this.

Why would God be giving new light on an understanding that has been light for the last 150 years. Just as inspiration was known to be true because it did not disagree with scripture, so, any new light the Father gives us must be in harmony with what is already understood as 'present truth'. Otherwise, if you negate some of what inspiriation says, then it must all be discarded. Just what satan wants in this time...
 
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taikachanz

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I am not going to be able to prove to you what you are seeking.... the only thing I can offer is this.

Why would God be giving new light on an understanding that has been light for the last 150 years. Just as inspiration was known to be true because it did not disagree with scripture, so, any new light the Father gives us must be in harmony with what is already understood as 'present truth'. Otherwise, if you negate some of what inspiriation says, then it must all be discarded. Just what satan wants in this time...


Why must it "all be dicarded"? Did the reformers discard all that they knew because they were given "present truth" for their time? Did the pioneers discard "all" when they were given "present truth" for their time? The answer to both is NO. So then why should we discard all now? Is it too much to ask for a reevaluation of the Daniel 12:11-12 prophecy? Was it too much for the pioneers to reevaluate the Daniel prophecys that revealed the "cleansing of the temple" when what they thought would occur didn't? Are we so set in our ways and our beliefs that we can not even look into a thing when it is presented to us. I believe Paul ran into the same situation during his travels, do you remember what he said concerning these? We are to compare scripture and to study it closely. Did you even think about what I said concerning Daniel 2 in my last post? You raise superficial agreements against what I present, but there is no substance to refute what I have said.

Again, in Daniel 2 Daniel lays out for King Neb the entirety of his vision, from his Kingdon to the end of human history. In Chapter 7 we see the beast power is to be destroyed and the saints of God will rule. This dues not happen "until the end." Chapter 8 also shows the same except it does not mention the end of days but only that it will be "broken without hands" referring the destruction described in the first two prophecies. In Daniel 11 Daniel is shown a series of battles that when compared to history look highly coencedintal to those that occurred during the crusades. Even the locals fit into this historical view. And finally in Daniel 12 we see the final events unfold in his final prophecy. But that prophecy, like all the others, had a specific starting time, not just one but two markers that started the count down, and this prophecy culminates at the last day when Christ returns with his reward for his faithful people. This we know because Daniel is told to wait "till the end be.", and the end is not yet.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Sister White and the pioneers were very clear in thier understanding of what and where the prophesies of Daniel had their beginning and ending... in the case of sister White, we beleive she had the gift of prophesy. One proof of her gift was the fact is that she was not in error in her understanding of the prophesies. If you are saying she was, then she is discredited as a true prophet and therfore none of her writings can be taken as inspired.

The pioneers did not tear down the understanding of the reformers, they added to them. The prophesies of Daniel had not been understood until the time of the end after 1798 as the prophesy said, so there was no previous understanding of these prophesies to discredit, as far as I know.

To my mind, God would not have allowed such a gross error of understanding among His people for so long. He may have only given them partial understanding but what you are proposing does not add to a partial understanding. Subjects like the seven thunders and the seventh trumpet/third woe, are now being understood because there was no light given to Gods' people til now.

What you are attempting to do, imo, is revisionism, not enlightenment.
 
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