Thou art Peter...

[Job_38]

Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
<B>And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and <I>the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.</I>
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." </B>


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&nbsp;Who here sees this as Peter being given the authority of the Church or, as I see it, Christ telling them that He is the rock and the Church will be built on Him.

&nbsp;?

 

[Outspoken]

I personally think he was saying he would build the rock on that statement that Peter said, for Christ is the center, founder, and keeper of the church.

 

[RevKidd]

Well, at the day of Pentacost thousands were saved because of the word that Peter preached. I think Christ was meaning that Peter will be the one who will be the originator of the church.

I don't know what you mean by the authority of the church though....

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Job_38
Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
<B>And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and <I>the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.</I>
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." </B>


&nbsp;

&nbsp;Who here sees this as Peter being given the authority of the Church or, as I see it, Christ telling them that He is the rock and the Church will be built on Him.

&nbsp;?

I don't. Christ is the head of the church and didn't need to ordain a specific human head of his church.

Let's look at the OT parallel: The Jews wanted a king. But God said, "I am your King." Then the Jews said, "Yeah, I guess, but we want a human king." And God said, "But a human king won't be as kind to you, or lead you faithfully like I have, and he'll make you fight his battles, and he'll tax you for his own purposes. He won't be like me." And the Jews said, "Well, we want one anyway."

Why would God NOT want them to have a specific, all-powerful human king in the OT, then establish one in the NT?

Doesn't make sense. He is our King, and we don't need a human spiritual "king."

 

[Job_38]

Originally posted by Leviathan
Well, at the day of Pentacost thousands were saved because of the word that Peter preached. I think Christ was meaning that Peter will be the one who will be the originator of the church.

I don't know what you mean by the authority of the church though....

&nbsp;

&nbsp;What I mean is that the Catholics see Peter as the first pope and they use that verse to back it up.

 

[Outspoken]

true, and that is a matter of interpreation. That is not the only thing they use though

 

[Joj]

Well I for another dont see Peter as the rock The scriptures are clear The rock was/is Christ. Believing Jesus was the Christ ( what God revealed to Peter) was a requirment to make it into the kingdom that Jesus said was at hand that was offered to and rejected by Israel when they crucified Him.

Peter at pentacost was directing his message to Israel only. Peter at this time knew it was illegal for a Jew to go to one of another nation (gentile). He couldn't have been the head of any type of universal church.

Jesus Himself had told him to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus as He ministered on earth said Himself that He was sent only to the Lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I have often wondered how so many can believe that Peter was the head of the church at the beginning of the church when the church was yet 100% jewish except for a few who converted to Judaism (proselytes). The middle wall of separation was still up during this period.

The church I see in operation today is the church which is His Body, the Body of Christ. His church today is made up of Jew and gentile save by faith in the cross work of Christ. The church in operation recorded in the synoptic gospels and into early acts, were Jews that recognised Jesus as their prophesied and promised King, who was to rule over them in His kingdom ON the earth. They knew nothing of the benefits of the cross that lie ahead for ALL men.

Our salvation today,(faith in what God had done for us through the cross) you wont find Peter, Jesus or any of the other 11 preaching or teaching before or after pentacost, not till after the risen Lord revealed it to the apostle to the gentiles Paul much later do you find it preached.

How could the supposed first pope know nothing of the cross let alone be the first head of the church for today without that knowledge? Seems like he didn't have one huge key.

His.......Joj

 

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Job_38
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&nbsp;What I mean is that the Catholics see Peter as the first pope and they use that verse to back it up.

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POINT OF ORDER -

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I know that many claim that Peter was the first pope, but this is an impossibilty.&nbsp; Firstly, the pope holds the office of BISHOP of rome.&nbsp; The Bishops are the HEIRS to the Apostles.&nbsp; Peter could not have been a bishop.&nbsp; Secondly, the Pope is the sucessor of St Peter - Peter cannot have been his own sucessor.&nbsp; Thirdly - the early popes never claims to be the vicar of Christ. Rather they claimed to be teh vicars of Peter. &nbsp;

 

[RevKidd]

What I mean is that the Catholics see Peter as the first pope and they use that verse to back it up.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the clarification.&nbsp; In no way do I see where Christ is telling Peter to assume the role of a "Pope" or anything such as this....

I believe Christ&nbsp;was forthtelling how Peter is going to Preach and witness at the day of Pentacost.&nbsp; Acts 2:41 says that nearly 3000 were saved that day after Peter gave this sermon. &nbsp;

3000 people were added to the "church" on the day of pentacost.&nbsp; That's a pretty good beginning if you ask me.&nbsp; And from then on the church has been growing, and nothing, even the gates of hell, will prevail ....

&nbsp;

 

[pax]

I know that many claim that Peter was the first pope, but this is an impossibilty.&nbsp; Firstly, the pope holds the office of BISHOP of rome.&nbsp; The Bishops are the HEIRS to the Apostles.&nbsp; Peter could not have been a bishop.&nbsp;

This is a good point, but I do believe Peter was an Apostle acting in the capacity of Bishop of Rome.&nbsp; He founded the Holy See (with St. Paul), and from most historical accounts that I've read, oversaw it.&nbsp; The Pope is also a Patriarch, but that doesn't prevent him from being Priest, Bishop and Metropolitan too.

Secondly, the Pope is the sucessor of St Peter - Peter cannot have been his own sucessor.&nbsp;

That's how we define today's Pope, successor of St. Peter.&nbsp;&nbsp;Christ instituted the office of the Papacy, and Peter was the first to become Pope.&nbsp; Since Peter's death, the Pope has been called the "successor of Peter."

&nbsp;Thirdly - the early popes never claims to be the vicar of Christ. Rather they claimed to be teh vicars of Peter. &nbsp; [/B]

That is actually quite&nbsp;interesting.&nbsp; Would you mind supplying a source so I can research these more in-depth.

Pax

 

[pax]

I know that many claim that Peter was the first pope, but this is an impossibilty.&nbsp; Firstly, the pope holds the office of BISHOP of rome.&nbsp; The Bishops are the HEIRS to the Apostles.&nbsp; Peter could not have been a bishop.&nbsp;

This is a good point, but I do believe Peter was an Apostle acting in the capacity of Bishop of Rome.&nbsp; He founded the Holy See (with St. Paul), and from most historical accounts that I've read, oversaw it.&nbsp; The Pope is also a Patriarch, but that doesn't prevent him from being Priest, Bishop and Metropolitan too.

Secondly, the Pope is the sucessor of St Peter - Peter cannot have been his own sucessor.&nbsp;

That's how we define today's Pope, successor of St. Peter.&nbsp;&nbsp;Christ instituted the office of the Papacy, and Peter was the first to become Pope.&nbsp; Since Peter's death, the Pope has been called the "successor of Peter."

&nbsp;Thirdly - the early popes never claims to be the vicar of Christ. Rather they claimed to be teh vicars of Peter. &nbsp; [/B]

That is actually quite&nbsp;interesting.&nbsp; Would you mind supplying a source so I can research these more in-depth.

Pax

 

[pax]

Originally posted by Job_38
&nbsp;

&nbsp;What I mean is that the Catholics see Peter as the first pope and they use that verse to back it up.

We also use Sacred Tradition (The oral teachings of the Apostles that have been handed down from generation to generation, much of which has been written down by the Patristic Fathers).&nbsp; There is also a verse in John's gospel:

John 21:15-17

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Job_38
Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
<B>And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and <I>the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.</I>
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." </B>


&nbsp;

&nbsp;Who here sees this as Peter being given the authority of the Church or, as I see it, Christ telling them that He is the rock and the Church will be built on Him.

&nbsp;?

Peter was the first Pope:

http://www2.ministries-online.org/s0uljah/papacy.html

 

[Elan]

&nbsp;

 

[Elan]

17 Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19&nbsp; I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

&nbsp;Who here sees this as Peter being given the authority of the Church or, as I see it, Christ telling them that He is the rock and the Church will be built on Him ?

&nbsp;

With this particular section of scripture it is widely held that Peter received the authority of the Church or the Church would be built on him (Peter).&nbsp; The rock upon which Jesus builds His church is not Simon Peter, but Jesus’ confession/acknowledgement of him (Peter).&nbsp; If you care to read on I will attempt to detail a vantage point that explains what the Apostle John is setting forth with this passage of scripture.


Verses 14-16 seem to set the stage for the important words in verses 17 and 18.&nbsp; In verse 16 Simon Peter makes profession/acknowledgment of Jesus that He is the Christ.&nbsp; Clearly what Simon Peter had just professed did not have its source of inspiration from Simon Peter, but from the heavenly Father.&nbsp; In other words, Simon Peter did not have ability to recognize Jesus as the Christ except it be revealed to him by the heavenly Father.&nbsp; Simon Peter probably didn’t realize that the heavenly Father gave him the profession/acknowledgement that Jesus is the Christ, so in verse 17 Jesus takes time to explain to Simon Peter this critical piece of understanding.&nbsp; From mankind’s point of view the profession of Jesus as the Christ is often deemed very important for salvation sake.&nbsp; And so it is.&nbsp; But in the next verse, 17, something even more significant is revealed.&nbsp;


In verse 17 a most amazing interaction occurs, Jesus professes Simon Peter as “Simon son of Jonah.”&nbsp; Some may consider this profession to be of little consequence.&nbsp; Simon Peter knew who he was.&nbsp; But Jesus, here in verse 17 takes the time and a few words to recognize Simon Peter, and establish a rock.&nbsp; According to scripture it is not often that Jesus professes an individual.&nbsp; There are but a handful of individuals who Jesus has professed.&nbsp; I will suggest the Jesus profession regarding Simon Peter was more significant than Simon Peter’s profession regarding Jesus being the Christ.&nbsp;


Those whom the heavenly Father gives inspired profession/acknowledgement that Jesus is the Christ are rock solid members of the church.&nbsp; It’s not our acknowledgement of Jesus that is of significance however; it’s His acknowledgement of each of us individually that He builds His church upon.&nbsp; Whosoever Jesus professes, is part of His body, the church.&nbsp; It’s His knowledge of us, not our knowledge of Him.&nbsp; That’s the rock, and it’s solid.&nbsp;


Jesus did not give the church to Simon Peter.&nbsp; Jesus did not give the authority of the church to Simon Peter.&nbsp; The profession of Jesus as Christ by mankind is meaningless.&nbsp; The profession of Jesus as Christ by mankind, when inspired by the heavenly Father, is wonderful.&nbsp; The profession of Jesus of an individual member of His body, the church, is rock solid security.

Maranatha,&nbsp; Elan

 

[dnich163]

I certainly agree that this is one of the staetements leading to Peter beeing the head of the structure of the church.
There is also the time when John (the beloved disciple) and Peter are running to the tomb.
John waits for Peter to get there and lets him enter first. It is almost as if he (John) was aware that Peter had some authority, and let him go in first.

David

 

[Gideon4God]

St. Peter is the "rock" because of his faith. He is the first to confess the faith prompted by the Holy Spirit but he does not own the faith. As an Orthodox believer we see St. Peter as the first among the apostles with his confession being that of the Christian FAith.

Gideon

"Petrine texts were interpreted allegorically. As we have seen, they were referred by Origen and his successors to 'the Church; or 'the faithful,' and not to Peter himself Commenting on Matt. 16:18, Origen stated that 'the Rock' was 'every imitator of Christ from whom they drank, who drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them.' The Church and its constitution were built on such a Rock. The passage referred to the apostles as a whole and not only to Peter. Elsewhere, Peter is seen as the pattern of all who had a tight disposition for the Church to be built. The 'keys of the kingdom' were given to all who believed in the confession Peter made and repented their faults. Origen's lead was followed. In the fifth century, we find the Alexandrian Monophysite patriarch, Timothy Eluros (454-77), writing to the Church of Constantinople and referring to Peter's Rock as 'meaning the orthodox faith,' and not Peter's successors." (W.H.C. Frend, The Rise of Christianity, p. 400)

 

[Gideon4God]

Here are a few quotes taken from the early Church Fathers:

"This one (Peter) is called a rock in order that on his FAITH (Rock) he may receive the foundations of the Church." - St. Gregory Nazianzen, 26th Discourse

"The Rock on which Christ will build His Church means the faith of confession." - St. John Chrysostom, 53rd Homily on St. Matthew

"The Rock (petra) is the blessed and only rock of the faith confessed by the mouth of Peter. It is on this Rock of the confession of faith that the Church is built." - St. Hilary of Poitiers, 2nd book on the Trinity

Hilary wrote the first lengthy study of the doctrine of the Church in Latin. Proclaimed a "Doctor of the Church" by the Roman See in 1851, he is called the Athanasius of the Western Church.


St. Cyril:
'"The word "Rock" has only a denominative value-it signifies nothing but the steadfast and firm faith of the apostles."

In his Letter to Nestorius, St. Cyril says:

"Peter and John were equal in dignity and honor. Christ is the foundation of all -the unshakeable Rock upon which we are all built as a spiritual edifice."

"Christ is the Rock Who granted to His apostles that they should be called rocks. God has founded His Church on this Rock, and it is from this Rock that Peter has been named." - St. Jerome, 6th book on Matthew

"Faith is the foundation of the Church, for it was not of the person but the faith of St. Peter of which it was said, 'the gates of hell shall not prevail'; certainly it is the confession of faith which has vanquished the powers of hell."

"Jesus Christ is the Rock. He did not deny the grace of His name... to Peter because he borrowed from the Rock the constancy and solidity of his faith- thy Rock is thy faith, and faith is the foundation of the Church. If thou art a Rock, thou shalt be in the Church, for the Church is built upon the Rock... (the profession of faith in Christ Jesus)." - St. Ambrose: The Incarnation

(Note: St. Ambrose often spoke disparagingly of the Bishop of Rome as usurping the legitimate rights of other bishops in the Church. Cf. On the Incarnation, On St. Luke, and On the 69th Psalm.)

St. Augustine, one of the most renowned theologians of the Western Church, claimed by the Roman See as "Father and Doctor", says:

"In one place I said... that the Church had been built on Peter as the Rock... but in fact it was not said to Peter, "Thou art the Rock," but rather "Thou art Peter." The Rock was Jesus Christ, Peter having confessed Him as all the Church confesses Him, He was then called Peter, "the Rock"... (ed, for his faith) ...Between these two sentiments let the reader choose the most probable." (St. Augustine, Retractions - 13th Sermon; Contra Julianum 1:13)

St. Augustine also adds: "Peter had not a primacy over the apostles, but among the apostles, and Christ said to them "I will build upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee." (ibid.)

To Augustine, this made Peter somewhat less than an infallible teacher, without his fellow bishops and all the faithful by his side. It is this statement by Augustine which Pope Hadrian VI (1522-25) had in mind when he declared:

"A Pope may err alone, not only in his personal, but official capacity."

In still another letter Augustine quotes Cyprian, with whom he is in full agreement:

"For neither did Peter whom the Lord chose... when Paul afterwards disputed with him... claim or assume anything and arrogantly to himself, so as to say that he held a primacy and should rather be obeyed by newcomers..."

Finally, Augustine concludes, near the end of his earthly life, with these words on the "Rock of the Church":

"Christ said to Peter... I will build thee upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee. Those who wished to be built among men said, 'I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of Cephas' - however, those who did not wish to be built upon Peter but upon the Rock say, I am of Jesus Christ." (Retractions, 13th Sermon)

 

[isshinwhat]

How confusing the Fathers can be.

St. John Chrysostom could faithfully write both

"The Rock on which Christ will build His Church means the faith of confession." - St. John Chrysostom, 53rd Homily on St. Matthew

and

"Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who recieved revelation not from man but from the Father...this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean that unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey"
Chrysostom John, De Eleemosyna,3:4(ante A.D. 407),in SEP,74

Similarly Gregory the Nazianzen could state both

"This one (Peter) is called a rock in order that on his FAITH (Rock) he may receive the foundations of the Church." - St. Gregory Nazianzen, 26th Discourse

and

"Seest thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were exalted and deserving of choice, one is called rock, and is entrusted with the foundations of the church."
Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 32:18(A.D. 380),in SPP,56

Then St. Hilary could say both

&nbsp;

"The Rock (petra) is the blessed and only rock of the faith confessed by the mouth of Peter. It is on this Rock of the confession of faith that the Church is built." - St. Hilary of Poitiers, 2nd book on the Trinity

and

"lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom..."
Hilary de Poiters,On the Trinity,6:20(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:105

And Jerome too...

"Christ is the Rock Who granted to His apostles that they should be called rocks. God has founded His Church on this Rock, and it is from this Rock that Peter has been named." - St. Jerome, 6th book on Matthew

"But you say, the Church was rounded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one(ie. Peter)among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism."
Jerome,Against Jovinianus,1 (A.D. 393),in NPNF2,VI:366

"As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!"
Jerome,To Pope Damasus,Epistle 15(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VI:18

And from the Third Session of the Council of Ephesus we have:

"There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever, lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine,according to due order,is his successor and holds his place..."
Philip,Council of Ephesus,Session III (A.D. 431),in NPNF,XIV:223

And from Ephraim the Syrian...

"Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter(Kepha), because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me...I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, have given you authority over all my treasures."
Ephraim, Homily 4:1,(A.D. 373),JUR,I:11

I do not believe that it has to be either Christ or Peter is the Rock... I believe it can be because of Christ, Peter is the Rock. I think it is that last statement that makes these apparent contradictions amongst the Fathers, some even between their own writings, disappear and become clear.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Gideon4God]

Canon 3 (381 ad)&nbsp; "The bishop of Constantinople shall have the primacy of honour after the biship of Rome his city is New Rome."

Canon 28 (451 ad)&nbsp; "...the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome.&nbsp; For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city.&nbsp; And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges (isa presbeia) to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Soverignty and the Senate, and enjoys equals privileges with the old imperial Rome..."

Canon 36 (692 ad) "...we decree that the see of Constantinople shall have equal privileges with the see of Old Rome..."

Through the Canons of the Church, we see that Rome held a "Primacy of Honour."&nbsp; Further, it seems this Primacy of Honour moved to the New Rome, Constantinople, after the collapse of the Western half of the Roman Empire to the barbarians.&nbsp;

"The Bishop of Alexandria shall have COMPLETE CONTROL AND JURISDICTION over Egypt, Libya and the Pentapolis.&nbsp; As also the Roman bishop over those as are subject to Rome.&nbsp; So too, the Bishop of Antioch and the rest of the bishops shall have complete control and jurisdiction over those faithful who are under them."

Rome did not have control over the jurisdiction of the Alexandrian Bishop.

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