Those who denounce Paul

[ananda]

As I said, your historical evidence for your belief is as skimpy as your NT.

My NT is approximately 73% of yours!

 

[Calcemo]

All right, back on topic.

If your a Paulian, can you plz explain to me how you reconcile the different conversion accounts he gave? The details in said accounts all differ. Did they stand speechless or did they all fall to the ground? Did the men hear a voice or didn't they? It's a stretch to say they're complimentary - quite a stretch.

I'd also like to know if you think it's coincidence that Paul received his vision at the house of a man named Judas on a street called straight. Acts 9:11

Yes, I realize that Judas was probably a popular name back then. Just another coincidence though that Paul was "unblinded" at the house of a man named Judas?

Is Jesus ever credited anywhere in the bible with making men physically blind? I remember the opposite - only time this occurs is with Saul's "blinding light" experience.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

All right, back on topic.

If your a Paulian, can you plz explain to me how you reconcile the different conversion accounts he gave? The details in said accounts all differ. Did they stand speechless or did they all fall to the ground? Did the men hear a voice or didn't they? It's a stretch to say they're complimentary - quite a stretch.

I'd also like to know if you think it's coincidence that Paul received his vision at the house of a man named Judas on a street called straight. Acts 9:11

Yes, I realize that Judas was probably a popular name back then. Just another coincidence though that Paul was "unblinded" at the house of a man named Judas?

Is Jesus ever credited anywhere in the bible with making men physically blind? I remember the opposite - only time this occurs is with Saul's "blinding light" experience.

That's standard with that kinda visit . the people hear a voice but only the subject of the message sees the messenger . when paul left the earth then the Judaizers had their way with the faith . he did a lot to hold them back .

 

[Messy]

All right, back on topic.

If your a Paulian, can you plz explain to me how you reconcile the different conversion accounts he gave? The details in said accounts all differ. Did they stand speechless or did they all fall to the ground? Did the men hear a voice or didn't they? It's a stretch to say they're complimentary - quite a stretch.

I'd also like to know if you think it's coincidence that Paul received his vision at the house of a man named Judas on a street called straight. Acts 9:11

Yes, I realize that Judas was probably a popular name back then. Just another coincidence though that Paul was "unblinded" at the house of a man named Judas?

Is Jesus ever credited anywhere in the bible with making men physically blind? I remember the opposite - only time this occurs is with Saul's "blinding light" experience.

Acts isn't inspired either?

God is Light, so no wonder he got blind physically. He was already blind spiritually. He saw Him in His resurrected Glory, not when He walked on earth. Jesus healed him using Ananias to heal him from his blindness. His spiritual eyes were blind already before he converted.

God made Zacharias dumb.

Acts 26
at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?


He heard the voice, not all of them.
It doesn't say they didn't see the light.
What's the problem?

Acts 22
6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’
9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid,[a] but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.

 

[from scratch]

Acts isn't inspired either?

God is Light, so no wonder he got blind physically. He was already blind spiritually. He saw Him in His resurrected Glory, not when He walked on earth. Jesus healed him using Ananias to heal him from his blindness. His spiritual eyes were blind already before he converted.

God made Zacharias dumb.

Acts 26
at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?


He heard the voice, not all of them.
It doesn't say they didn't see the light.
What's the problem?

Acts 22
6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’
9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid,[a] but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.

Looks like to me you're looking for a reason to not believe.

 

[from scratch]

What's funnier is assuming that the establishment is correct without testing their claims!

Even more funny is you think we haven't done so.

 

[from scratch]

Many define "gnostic" broadly as those who de-emphasize the flesh in favor of the spirit, so I can see how some see Paul as the father of gnostic Christianity.

I think you've got that a might bit backwards.

 

[Messy]

Looks like to me you're looking for a reason to no believe.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Messy

No I know one atheist who says Paul was gnostic. Never heard of it before he mentioned it.
​

Many define "gnostic" broadly as those who de-emphasize the flesh in favor of the spirit, so I can see how some see Paul as the father of gnostic Christianity.

In that case, I would even go so far as to say many of the early Hebrew prophets were "gnostic".

KJV Search Results for "flesh" AND "spirit"
"flesh" AND "spirit"
occurs in 31 verses in the KJV.

Eze 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you;
and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

1Jo 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The Police - Spirits In The Material World - YouTube
.

 

[Frogster]

All right, back on topic.

If your a Paulian, can you plz explain to me how you reconcile the different conversion accounts he gave? The details in said accounts all differ. Did they stand speechless or did they all fall to the ground? Did the men hear a voice or didn't they? It's a stretch to say they're complimentary - quite a stretch.

I'd also like to know if you think it's coincidence that Paul received his vision at the house of a man named Judas on a street called straight. Acts 9:11

Yes, I realize that Judas was probably a popular name back then. Just another coincidence though that Paul was "unblinded" at the house of a man named Judas?

Is Jesus ever credited anywhere in the bible with making men physically blind? I remember the opposite - only time this occurs is with Saul's "blinding light" experience.

gee...do you see how unimportant that is compared to all the important stuff Luke said, like How the word OF THE LORD, was spread through Paul, how the Holy Spirit picked him, and sent him Acts 9, and 13, how Jesus kept appearing to confirm him, how demons saw the same power in Him, and recognized Paul, as they did Jesus in Acts 19?


Now, if one wants to discredit, please, use some real good stuff, not Paul in trials that took a few years, words might change a bit in an unfolding narrative, he was held by felix for 2 years that we know of, then there was festus, and Agrippa, so yeah, tiny little unimportant things might differ, but the real good stuff can't be denied.


Which is more important, being chosen by the Spirit, or a nit pik about being blind, or who heard a voice, or whatever?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Calcemo

All right, back on topic.

If your a Paulian, can you plz explain to me how you reconcile the different conversion accounts he gave? The details in said accounts all differ. Did they stand speechless or did they all fall to the ground? Did the men hear a voice or didn't they? It's a stretch to say they're complimentary - quite a stretch.

I'd also like to know if you think it's coincidence that Paul received his vision at the house of a man named Judas on a street called straight. Acts 9:11

Yes, I realize that Judas was probably a popular name back then. Just another coincidence though that Paul was "unblinded" at the house of a man named Judas?

Is Jesus ever credited anywhere in the bible with making men physically blind? I remember the opposite - only time this occurs is with Saul's "blinding light" experience.
​

gee...do you see how unimportant that is compared to all the important stuff Luke said, like How the word OF THE LORD, was spread through Paul, how the Holy Spirit picked him, and sent him Acts 9, and 13, how Jesus kept appearing to confirm him, how demons saw the same power in Him, and recognized Paul, as they did Jesus in Acts 19?


Now, if one wants to discredit, please, use some real good stuff, not Paul in trials that took a few years, words might change a bit in an unfolding narrative, he was held by felix for 2 years that we know of, then there was festus, and Agrippa, so yeah, tiny little unimportant things might differ, but the real good stuff can't be denied.


Which is more important, being chosen by the Spirit, or a nit pik about being blind, or who heard a voice, or whatever?

Good point



.

 

[Calcemo]

gee...do you see how unimportant that is compared to all the important stuff Luke said, like How the word OF THE LORD, was spread through Paul, how the Holy Spirit picked him, and sent him Acts 9, and 13, how Jesus kept appearing to confirm him, how demons saw the same power in Him, and recognized Paul, as they did Jesus in Acts 19?

I don't know about you, but if someone tells me of a fantastic conversion story, then on the retelling changes the details of that story so as to make it contradictory to the original account, I'd question the truth of it.

Especially when that person is an active murderer seeking out believers and even admitting to compelling them to blaspheme. (Acts 26:11)

The whole of Pauline Christianity rests on the trust of that conversion and by extension, the trust in the supposed revelations of that person.

I'd say it's pretty important to get it right. In saying that, it's not as if I disregard everything Paul teaches - because I think he teaches some things that are helpful to Christians. I just give his writings much less weight in general and think he teaches error in numerous places.

In the broader scope of things, those in places of religious authority (popes, bishops, pastors etc) over men have only one man to thank - and that man is Paul of Tarsus, not Jesus. For without Paul's writings, their so called spiritual authority (in deed or in doctrine) would not exist. This is true of both the Catholic and Protestant traditions.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

In the broader scope of things, those in places of religious authority (popes, bishops, pastors etc) over men have only one man to thank - and that man is Paul of Tarsus, not Jesus.
For without Paul's writings, their so called spiritual authority (in deed or in doctrine) would not exist.
This is true of both the Catholic and Protestant traditions.

.

 

[Frogster]

Good point



.

thanks bro, you make good points as well..

 

[Frogster]

I don't know about you, but if someone tells me of a fantastic conversion story, then on the retelling changes the details of that story so as to make it contradictory to the original account, I'd question the truth of it.

Especially when that person is an active murderer seeking out believers and even admitting to compelling them to blaspheme. (Acts 26:11)

The whole of Pauline Christianity rests on the trust of that conversion and by extension, the trust in the supposed revelations of that person.

I'd say it's pretty important to get it right. In saying that, it's not as if I disregard everything Paul teaches - because I think he teaches some things that are helpful to Christians. I just give his writings much less weight in general and think he teaches error in numerous places.

In the broader scope of things, those in places of religious authority (popes, bishops, pastors etc) over men have only one man to thank - and that man is Paul of Tarsus, not Jesus. For without Paul's writings, their so called spiritual authority (in deed or in doctrine) would not exist. This is true of both the Catholic and Protestant traditions.

he was killing pre conversion, do you judge him on what he was forgiven of? Jesus picked him, no?

Why listen to Peter? he denied the Lord 3 times.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Calcemo

I don't know about you, but if someone tells me of a fantastic conversion story, then on the retelling changes the details of that story so as to make it contradictory to the original account, I'd question the truth of it.

​

he was killing pre conversion, do you judge him on what he was forgiven of? Jesus picked him, no?

Why listen to Peter? he denied the Lord 3 times.

How dare you talk about the first Pope of the RCC



.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by seeingeyes

Jesus taught the disciples to lead by example. :shrug:

"And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10)
​

Yes, lead by example, not by command as a lord

Are you remotely saying that Jesus' example is a command for us? If this is the case you're and every one else isn't in compliance. Furthermore it isn't possible.

Who are you to say what I am in compliance with? I thought you were preaching grace.

I've got no idea what you're talking about. That wasn't addressed to you.

On the other hand if we're doing as Jesus did we're in perfect compliance with the law in every aspect. Netzaim on the other hand is pushing compliance with the law.
He's using Jesus as proof we're so obligated. This isn't what Jesus taught.

As long as he isn't trying to say we need to be circumcised or that we can't eat pork or other non-kosher food, I am ok with it.


.

 

[plmarquette]

Heremeneutics , the mouth of 2-3 witnesses, context??

Paul was a Theologian, Peter was an illiterate fisherman, sure Paul's writing is difficult....obvious.....

Paul was showing difference between grace and the law .... the Talmud was being rewritten by a Pharisee's Pharisee....300 things to avoid and 200 things to do, out the window, covered by 1 law....love as God loves....

Paul cites the sins of "obsession" where the habit controls or possesses us... lust, gambling, anger, wrath, gay / lesbian, drugs, alcohol.... entire life becomes one more hit on the bottle , one more fix... that has become your god...

 

[squint]

Paul taught salvation by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing. Peter rebuked Yeshua when Messiah told Peter "I must suffer and die" because Peter could not see that Messiah had to die and not just die an easy death in His sleep but die a violent death.

It was not until the Holy Spirit was poured out in Acts 2 that the disciples would have their ability to record scripture. Paul who is met with Messiah, is chosen because of his expertise in Jewish law. The fact that he is sent to the Gentiles is significant for me because we are told that due to Israel's national rejection of their Messiah in recorded in Matthew 12 that "that generation" would be judged with not only the coming destruction of A.D. 70 but also the Jews would have a partial hardening. The very one writer of the New Testament who could have easily produced letters to show the Jews how the kingdom of God entered into its mystery form, that guy is sent to the Gentiles.

From Yeshua's teaching and from the Old Testament Paul's doctrines are authenticated.

Generally a great brief dissection above. Jesus Himself quickened the Old Testament scriptures to the 2 disciples He walked with on the road to Emmaus, POST resurrection and pre-tongues of fire baptism.

Paul clearly upheld the Gospel entirely from the Old Testament and that is shown in many places.

Acts 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Romans 3:21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Heremeneutics , the mouth of 2-3 witnesses, context??

Paul was a Theologian, Peter was an illiterate fisherman, sure Paul's writing is difficult....obvious.....

Paul was showing difference between grace and the law .... the Talmud was being rewritten by a Pharisee's Pharisee....300 things to avoid and 200 things to do, out the window, covered by 1 law....love as God loves....

Paul cites the sins of "obsession" where the habit controls or possesses us... lust, gambling, anger, wrath, gay / lesbian, drugs, alcohol.... entire life becomes one more hit on the bottle , one more fix... that has become your god...

Good post!

netzarim 145


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