Those who denounce Paul

[Messy]

Indeed, the The Way (Psa 119:1), the Truth (Psa 119:142), and the Life (Prov 13:14) all points to the Torah.

I believe Messiah is the embodiment of YHWH's Torah as a man (Jn 1:14, 1Jn 1)

Wow you're right. I didn't think that was true, but it is God's Word. He's the Word.

I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah . . .
I will put my Torah within them, and on their heart I will write it.
(Jeremiah 31:31, 33)

Who is within us?

 

[ananda]

Wow you're right. I didn't think that was true, but it is God's Word. He's the Word.

I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah . . .
I will put my Torah within them, and on their heart I will write it.
(Jeremiah 31:31, 33)

Who is within us?

He is the Word, and He dwells in the hearts of those who walk with Him.

 

[BlunderAngel]

Why can't you bring yourself to refer to Him as Jesus? John His disciple does.

The scribe that wrote the book of John under the pseudonym refers to the Greek name for Yeshua as that of Jesus.
The actual disciples would have called the Messiah by his Hebrew name, Yeshua. (or Yeshu)

Indeed, the The Way (Psa 119:1), the Truth (Psa 119:142), and the Life (Prov 13:14) all points to the Torah.

I believe Messiah is the embodiment of YHWH's Torah as a man (Jn 1:14, 1Jn 1)

That's what I thought. So then the Torah would not have been set aside when Yeshua said; it is accomplished, from the cross?

 

[ananda]

That's what I thought. So then the Torah would not have been set aside when Yeshua said; it is accomplished, from the cross?

It isn't set aside.

"It is accomplished" refers to the prophecies given beforehand that prophesied about His first coming, and to certain sacrifices which culminated in His Sacrifice. Those prophecies & sacrifice were accomplished - not that Torah was finished and done away with.

The idea that He cast aside the Torah with His statement is ludicrous. The Torah itself defines the Way of substitutionary atonement and redemption (accomplished in Messiah). To get rid of Torah means to toss aside that very Way defined by YHWH. Thus, the Torah-less have no Way of Salvation at all.

 

[Messy]

That's what I thought. So then the Torah would not have been set aside when Yeshua said; it is accomplished, from the cross?

He fulfilled the law. The law said: the soul that sins must die. So, that is accomplished. He dealt with our old man, that is done away, not the Torah.

Romans 7
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Why do people think this means the law was done away with?
I don't think that's what Paul was saying.

 

[BlunderAngel]

It isn't set aside.

"It is accomplished" refers to the prophecies given beforehand that prophesied about His first coming, and to certain sacrifices which culminated in His Sacrifice. Those prophecies & sacrifice were accomplished - not that Torah was finished and done away with.

The idea that He cast aside the Torah with His statement is ludicrous. The Torah itself defines the Way of substitutionary atonement and redemption (accomplished in Messiah). To get rid of Torah means to toss aside that very Way defined by YHWH. Thus, the Torah-less have no Way of Salvation at all.

That's what I thought. I run into a number of Christians from time to time that argue the law was set aside by his statement.
Thank you for that.

He fulfilled the law. The law said: the soul that sins must die. So, that is accomplished. He dealt with our old man, that is done away, not the Torah.

Romans 7
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Why do people think this means the law was done away with?
I don't think that's what Paul was saying.

Thank you.

 

[seeingeyes]

I believe Messiah taught us to listen to the Pharisees when they teach rightly from Torah. I also believe that He taught us to reject their doctrines (their traditions).

My "takeaway" from that is that if a Pharisee was trying to teach me anything, I must compare what he says to whatever Torah and Messiah taught. If there is any deviation, then I am obligated to reject that tradition in favor of Torah & Messiah. I believe this is also in harmony with Deu 13:1-6, Deu 18:20-22, Isa 8:20.

So then, you do not denounce Paul entirely?

 

[from scratch]

The scribe that wrote the book of John under the pseudonym refers to the Greek name for Yeshua as that of Jesus.
The actual disciples would have called the Messiah by his Hebrew name, Yeshua. (or Yeshu)


That's what I thought. So then the Torah would not have been set aside when Yeshua said; it is accomplished, from the cross?

I'm in utter disbelief.

 

[ananda]

So then, you do not denounce Paul entirely?

All I can say is that the Pharisees teach both truth and falsehood.

 

[from scratch]

It isn't set aside.

"It is accomplished" refers to the prophecies given beforehand that prophesied about His first coming, and to certain sacrifices which culminated in His Sacrifice. Those prophecies & sacrifice were accomplished - not that Torah was finished and done away with.

The idea that He cast aside the Torah with His statement is ludicrous. The Torah itself defines the Way of substitutionary atonement and redemption (accomplished in Messiah). To get rid of Torah means to toss aside that very Way defined by YHWH. Thus, the Torah-less have no Way of Salvation at all.

Doesn't quite line up with God's Word either from the prophets or the Gospels. There is no salvation (eternal life) found in the law anywhere.

 

[from scratch]

He fulfilled the law. The law said: the soul that sins must die. So, that is accomplished. He dealt with our old man, that is done away, not the Torah.

Romans 7
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Why do people think this means the law was done away with?
I don't think that's what Paul was saying.

We're not denying the law existed nor that it applies to the ungodly. Gal 3:17-19, I Tim 1:9

We are in agreement with Paul Now we are delivered from the law. It doesn't say part of the law. It plainly says the law. The Ten Commandments are clearly identified as the law in Rom 7. The law was for a period of time according to Gal 3:17-19. Key words are after and till. They limit the jurisdiction of the law to a period of time.

 

[from scratch]

That's what I thought. I run into a number of Christians from time to time that argue the law was set aside by his statement.
Thank you for that.

Thank you.

Jer 31 states the OC will be replaced by a totally NC. Deut 5 clearly states the Ten Commandments are the Old Covenant. Jesus very clearly states the New Covenant is in force as recorded in Mat 26:28, MK 14:24 and LK 22:20.

What New Covenant is Jesus talking about if it isn't the one Jeremiah spoke about? Are there 2 New Covenants? Please support such a position.

 

[ananda]

Doesn't quite line up with God's Word either from the prophets or the Gospels. There is no salvation (eternal life) found in the law anywhere.

False.

Substitutionary atonement by a perfect sacrifice was described and prescribed in Torah. If there is no Torah to define this Way of atonement, Messiah's death on the cross becomes utterly meaningless, and He becomes just another man the Romans crucified.

 

[from scratch]

All I can say is that the Pharisees teach both truth and falsehood.

Great! Now if one believes II Tim 3:16 we have God inspiring lies.

 

[from scratch]

False.

Substitutionary atonement by a perfect sacrifice was described and prescribed in Torah. If there is no Torah to define this Way of atonement, Messiah's death on the cross becomes utterly meaningless, and He becomes just another man the Romans crucified.

Under the administration of the law all they had was forgiveness. It doesn't provide for salvation. The law was and is still powerless to change the heart. Rom 8.

There is no eternal life or rest found in the law.

 

[ananda]

Under the administration of the law all they had was forgiveness. It doesn't provide for salvation. The law was and is still powerless to change the heart. Rom 8.

There is no eternal life or rest found in the law.

I disagree.

"Happy art thou, O Israel: Who is like unto thee, a people saved by YHWH ..." Deuteronomy 33:29

 

[ananda]

Great! Now if one believes II Tim 3:16 we have God inspiring lies.

Indeed YHWH sends false prophets ... why? to test our love for Him and His Torah:

"Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your Elohim proveth you, to know whether ye love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul ... And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from YHWH your Elohim, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which YHWH thy Elohim commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." Deu 13:3,5

 

[from scratch]

I disagree.

"Happy art thou, O Israel: Who is like unto thee, a people saved by YHWH ..." Deuteronomy 33:29

I kin cherry pick too. Now please explain your passage. As it stands you're implying they have eternal life. Nope. Now do you wish to provide the contest and start the discussion about your cherry picked verse, or shall I?

 

[from scratch]

Indeed YHWH sends false prophets ... why? to test our love for Him and His Torah:

"Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your Elohim proveth you, to know whether ye love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul ... And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from YHWH your Elohim, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which YHWH thy Elohim commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." Deu 13:3,5

No God doesn't send liars.

 

[ananda]

I kin cherry pick too. Now please explain your passage. As it stands you're implying they have eternal life. Nope. Now do you wish to provide the contest and start the discussion about your cherry picked verse, or shall I?

I take it straightforwardly. YHWH saves His people. But there's no point in expounding on it, because I'm sure you'll disagree, since you already disagreed with another (to me) undeniably clear & straighforward passage about YHWH sending false prophets ...

No God doesn't send liars.

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