Those Critics of the LDS

[TasteForTruth]

First, I would like to be clear that these comments are intended to be general comments.


According to this definition, there is probably a lot of bigotry exhibited here on CF!

And this definition fits many people who post here:

big·ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

bigot - definition of bigot by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.​

IMO, one can be strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and not be considered a bigot. It is when one crosses the line of intolerance towards others that it becomes bigotry. If we want to be careful not to cross that line, then I think that we need to consider that those outside of our own group, or within a certain group, I think that one needs treat them with charity and that includes not assuming the worst about them.

Swart, who used to post here, once wrote up his own rules for engagement. They included this tidbit, which I think is worth remembering:

The Law of Charity

When presenting any material that is negative about another's beliefs. Be sure to present it in the most positive light. That way you can critique from a position of strength without being cast as polemic.

If you can explain the beliefs of another person to their satisfaction, then you are in a position to critique those beliefs.​

Again, this thread isn't intended to be pointing my finger at anyone. It really is intended to be a general comment. I think that there is intolerance towards others here at CF, and it is just something to think about. I don't think that it is limited to people of any one group. I don't know if most people even recognize if there are doing so, so it is good for us all to examine ourselves.

I agree that it is the intolerance of others that makes us bigots. And I applaud as loudly as I am able the bolded part above. I do not believe that anyone who cannot do that is in any position to critique another person's beliefs or religion. Amen! If only everyone felt that way.

 

[fatboys]

Yes, I would love to see the LDS religion destroyed.

Then your an enemy

 

[fatboys]

Been busy, I meant I asked if they wanted to come back to church, or have their names removed. sorry about the confusion, I thought I cleared this up but must have got sidetracked somehow because I know I wrote a post to clarify. Now even though I meant one thing and it appeared to be the one thing, but actually it was not. See how hard it is to get the real intent of something that was a mistake. My wife gets mad at me because I think everyone knows what I am thinking.

 

[Cactus Jack]

I agree that it is the intolerance of others that makes us bigots. And I applaud as loudly as I am able the bolded part above. I do not believe that anyone who cannot do that is in any position to critique another person's beliefs or religion. Amen! If only everyone felt that way.

I think that TFT's honesty here is certainly admirable. < Staff Edit >

Sorry TFT, I'm still a bit steamed after dealing with that bishop recently. To hear him insult me, and then lie to my face...until you have been there, you have no idea how angry that makes me. But then, no surprise really, considering the rest I have had to deal with.

And maybe you have been there, I dunno, but if so then you know how I feel right now.

I did, however, view a couple posts from fatboys-

Then your an enemy

< Staff Edit > I still love you as a human and I urge you to be careful in saying that. < Staff Edit > And you clearly don't remember the big church-wide fireside the LDS had years ago when they celebrated the crossing of the Mississippi. I was at one, and I remember when a representative from the First Presidency spoke, telling how much they remember the sins and atrocities committed against the church and it's members, but they also vowed to never commit ANY against others. Something I reflect so well on when I see members, who in their ignorant foolishness do exactly that. And the sting that is felt, knowing what the representative said, yet expereinceing, first hand, members of the bishopric and stake presidency, with their own arrogance and blatant stupidity....
...do the very same thing....
...and then lie to cover it up.

Oh, man. You have no concept. You have no concept of what WILL happen because of that. Because according to LDS scripture (which I cannot name because it's been so long since I was there), when a wrong is committed, they are expected to "compensate" equally. When a wrong is committed and they recognize it yet do nothing to "compensate", it is a damnable sin. And when it is church leaders who, in their misconduct, cause members to leave, it is sinful. When it's all three- cause members to leave because of misconduct, lie about it, and then refuse to apologize, it is a damnable sin.

And in this I have always known "compensate" to mean at the least, apologize and do what they must to fix any damage done by their sins.

So they lie, take actions that cause members to want to leave, then lie about that, and they recognize what they're doing is wrong, and they won't even apologize. Then, instead of allowing members to leave within the 30 day time frame, it takes 3-1/2 years, not to mention the lengths I had to go to to urge the stake presidency to comply. If your bishopric and stake presidency can't obey standards set forth by their very own leaders who allege they were given those directives by angles, then how can they be expected to truly honor Jesus? They can't. Thus, they are not Christians if they cannot honor Jesus, directives sent by angels, or their church directives and procedures.

And it's stuff like that, that makes it so that I would never hole a leadership role. Because if I ever caught a leader of any capacity doing any of that, they'd have their hind-quarters handed to them in a manila envelope with the letter describing their excommunication.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I think that TFT's honesty here is certainly admirable. < Staff Edit >

Sorry TFT, I'm still a bit steamed after dealing with that bishop recently. To hear him insult me, and then lie to my face...until you have been there, you have no idea how angry that makes me. But then, no surprise really, considering the rest I have had to deal with.

And maybe you have been there, I dunno, but if so then you know how I feel right now.

I have never had a bishop insult me or lie to me. But I know what it's like to feel wrongly accused and judged. And I have had distasteful experiences with Priesthood leaders. Gratefully, these have been rare. And when I say "distasteful," I am speaking about Priesthood leaders using their position in the Church in inappropriate ways. Those have not left me feeling like you feel, however. That is, I was never tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I say that with an understanding that I have also never been disfellowshipped or excommunicated, although there was a time&#8212;post mission&#8212;when I personally and briefly estranged myself from the Church due to a "perfect storm" of conditions in my life.

All I can say is I'm sorry that you've had such bad experiences. Please consider that hearing all that you have shared is a burden I also must bear, as a member of the Church. That is what it means to be a Christian, as I understand it&#8212;mourn with those who mourn, etc. And what happens in the Church in one place, affects us all.

 

[Phantasman]

And it's stuff like that, that makes it so that I would never hole a leadership role. Because if I ever caught a leader of any capacity doing any of that, they'd have their hind-quarters handed to them in a manila envelope with the letter describing their excommunication.

The problem of the ages, then.

If I were to be a judge, I COULD judge that Orthodox Christianity is wrong because it follows Constantine Bishops. That Islam is wrong because it follows Muhammad. LDS is wrong because it follows Joseph Smith. And on and on.

But I don't, and my friends are in all those beliefs. I, on the other hand, have studied many of their beliefs. And though my own comes from the non Canonical scriptures add to the NT, I have how God has REVEALED himself to me.

When I teach my children, I teach them what I know. But I always tell them to seek God, and God will reveal himself to them. I pray for them as I pray for myself, that we are one. Not as man defines it, but as God does. To find God through the veils of the doctrines of men and of church. Not another persons belief, but of the truth you find by your own tireless seeking. Don't leave out anything simply because a man tells you to. Because if you do, how do you know the difference between truth and untruth if untruth doesn't verify the truth. Truth is not where man places it, but where God speaks to you from.

 

[fatboys]

I am not sure why I would be on someone ignore list. I have tried to explain that sometimes when we accuse others, that it is ourselves that are guilty but do not want to admit we are wrong. I have done it and I am sure most others do.

Now if someone wants the LDS church destoryed, then they are an enemy of the church. If they do not want to have good will towards the church then they want ill will. That makes them an enemy. They are not a friend. If you are not a friend, then what else could you be?

 

[resistingrexmundi]

I would like to know if there are any critics of the LDS here who would love to see the LDS religion destroyed.

Yes. I want to see any lie destroyed. If you are not truly convicted to not only defend your doctrine but to attack others then you are not trying to win the spiritual war. Paul said that any false doctrine should be torn down and instead have truth put in its' place.

 

[Randomfeats]

Yes. I want to see any lie destroyed. If you are not truly convicted to not only defend your doctrine but to attack others then you are not trying to win the spiritual war. Paul said that any false doctrine should be torn down and instead have truth put in its' place.

Honestly as abrasive as this may seem, I think that rrm has it right. If some doctrine, teaching or what have you falls short and is not sound in the least Christians should be more than willing to combat it. Allowing a lie to perpetuate itself and grow and lead others down a false path while being indifferent is almost as bad as purporting a false doctrine ourselves.

And I understand it may be against forum policy to call into question someones Christianity, but if you see an obvious affront to sound doctrine then it should be called out, shown why it's wrong and then lead to a more appropriate path. Not that I may have the right directions toward that path or that I'm a higher moral authority, but there are things that people should speak out against and make known why they're wrong.

Cheers,
Randomfeats

 

[drstevej]

I do not want to see it destroyed but if it never came into existence that would be fine by me. I would prefer it to be corrected and set aside false "revelation."

 

[fatboys]

Honestly as abrasive as this may seem, I think that rrm has it right. If some doctrine, teaching or what have you falls short and is not sound in the least Christians should be more than willing to combat it. Allowing a lie to perpetuate itself and grow and lead others down a false path while being indifferent is almost as bad as purporting a false doctrine ourselves.

And I understand it may be against forum policy to call into question someones Christianity, but if you see an obvious affront to sound doctrine then it should be called out, shown why it's wrong and then lead to a more appropriate path. Not that I may have the right directions toward that path or that I'm a higher moral authority, but there are things that people should speak out against and make known why they're wrong.

Cheers,
Randomfeats

Don't you understand that you are judging from your perspective what is sound doctrine or not. How do you know that what you believe is the only correct way?

 

[resistingrexmundi]

Don't you understand that you are judging from your perspective what is sound doctrine or not. How do you know that what you believe is the only correct way?

Judging is fine as long as it's is righteous judgment. Jesus himself said as much. You make judgment calls everyday. Scripture makes it clear what is to be accepted and what is to be cast away.

 

[Randomfeats]

Don't you understand that you are judging from your perspective what is sound doctrine or not. How do you know that what you believe is the only correct way?

I'm just using the tools available to me, I don't make the doctrine, the bible does, and to appeal to any other authority is wrong. Which is why I'm not using myself as a judge of sound doctrine, I only purport what i can weigh against the bible and find sound.

Edit: What I mean by authority is God and his word.

 

[williamgramsmith]

I'm just using the tools available to me, I don't make the doctrine, the bible does, and to appeal to any other authority is wrong. Which is why I'm not using myself as a judge of sound doctrine, I only purport what i can weigh against the bible and find sound.

Edit: What I mean by authority is God and his word.

You mean all that proceedeth out of the mouth of His Holy Prophets?

Tell us, when did the Bible develop this "authority"?
It is a compilation by men, it's not the Word, it only contains the Word.
The true word of God always first came from the Lords Annointed, the Prophets and Apostles.

The Apostles in the New Testament almost never said "look to the Bible" for the Truth, they said THEY had the truth. Likewise, they almost never referred back to other scripture, they simply taught the word. Likewise other Biblical Prophets almost never referred back to previous scripture, they taught what the Word of God was.

There is another problem with your statement....

What if what and how you judge "soundness" is actually in fact "colored" by the ideology's and precepts of the men around you, i.e. the "Doctrines of Men" mingled with the Doctrines of God, thus making you THINK that "interpretation" is actually from the Bible when it's not at all from the Bible, but from the men that teach you?

What if I told you this is an absolute FACT?
After all, Catholics think like Catholics, Protestants think like Protestants, Evangelicals think like Evangelicals, Mormons think like Mormons etc. What you are then left with is guess what YOUR OWN JUDGMENT. That's not "truth", and it's certainly not the "Word of God".

That's why God has always had Prophets and Apostles, to expound the "Word", to stand as watchmen, etc. Anything else, and you are your OWN religion, the doctrines of God mingled with the doctrines of men.

Next question, is there a religion on the earth that matches the standards of scripture when it comes to Prophets, Revelation, etc. There is!

 

[Randomfeats]

You mean all that proceedeth out of the mouth of His Holy Prophets?

Tell us, when did the Bible develop this "authority"?
It is a compilation by men, it's not the Word, it only contains the Word.
The true word of God always first came from the Lords Annointed, the Prophets and Apostles.

When did it never have it's authority I'd say is a better question.

The Apostles in the New Testament almost never said "look to the Bible" for the Truth, they said THEY had the truth. Likewise, they almost never referred back to other scripture, they simply taught the word. Likewise other Biblical Prophets almost never referred back to previous scripture, they taught what the Word of God was.

2 Timothy Chapter 3

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works

There is another problem with your statement....

What if what and how you judge "soundness" is actually in fact "colored" by the ideology's and precepts of the men around you, i.e. the "Doctrines of Men" mingled with the Doctrines of God, thus making you THINK that "interpretation" is actually from the Bible when it's not at all from the Bible, but from the men that teach you?

What if I told you this is an absolute FACT?
After all, Catholics think like Catholics, Protestants think like Protestants, Evangelicals think like Evangelicals, Mormons think like Mormons etc. What you are then left with is guess what YOUR OWN JUDGMENT. That's not "truth", and it's certainly not the "Word of God".

That's why God has always had Prophets and Apostles, to expound the "Word", to stand as watchmen, etc. Anything else, and you are your OWN religion, the doctrines of God mingled with the doctrines of men.

see above verses

Next question, is there a religion on the earth that matches the standards of scripture when it comes to Prophets, Revelation, etc. There is!

There is, it's called Christianity, however back to the point of the thread should the LDS be destroyed, I'd still say yes.

Cheers,
RF

 

[Randomfeats]

Don't you understand that you are judging from your perspective what is sound doctrine or not. How do you know that what you believe is the only correct way?

This isn't about whether my way is the correct way. You asked a simple question with the OP and I threw in my two cents. I haven't put forth any statements regarding my personal beliefs besides that obvious false teachings should be combated and corrected. I believe the LDS church should be done away with because their doctrine doesn't stand on solid ground when under biblical scrutiny.

 

[fatboys]

This isn't about whether my way is the correct way. You asked a simple question with the OP and I threw in my two cents. I haven't put forth any statements regarding my personal beliefs besides that obvious false teachings should be combated and corrected. I believe the LDS church should be done away with because their doctrine doesn't stand on solid ground when under biblical scrutiny.

You are making a judgement on what is sound doctrine from your own understanding of the bible. You can not say that your understanding is superior than mine. If this is true, why on earth would you say the LDS should be done away with?

 

[fatboys]

When did it never have it's authority I'd say is a better question.
2 Timothy Chapter 3

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works
see above verses

There is, it's called Christianity, however back to the point of the thread should the LDS be destroyed, I'd still say yes.

Cheers,
RF

All scriptures may be given by inspiration, but unless you have the authority of God to understand the pure intent of the scriptures then you are no better than those who studied the scriptures at the time of Christ. "Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life" The jews thought that salvation came from the scriptures. Christ went on to say. "And they are they which testify of me" Meaning he is the one that brings salvation, not the scriptures.

 

[fatboys]

I'm just using the tools available to me, I don't make the doctrine, the bible does, and to appeal to any other authority is wrong. Which is why I'm not using myself as a judge of sound doctrine, I only purport what i can weigh against the bible and find sound.

Edit: What I mean by authority is God and his word.

Perhaps your using the tools wrong. Perhaps your understanding of what is important doctrine and what is not is wrong. The bible does not make doctrine, God does. And you can not appeal to the Bible because it will not tell you if you are right or wrong, God does but you have to ask.

 

[A New Dawn]

All scriptures may be given by inspiration, but unless you have the authority of God to understand the pure intent of the scriptures then you are no better than those who studied the scriptures at the time of Christ. "Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life" The jews thought that salvation came from the scriptures. Christ went on to say. "And they are they which testify of me" Meaning he is the one that brings salvation, not the scriptures.

The Holy Spirit that lives inside you from the time you became a believer is the authority. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of God to man.

1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God....
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

For example:

Luk 2:25 ¶ And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;​