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This will come ...

wayseer

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... as a great relief to many. I am no longer Anglican.

I can no longer pretend that what Anglicanism stands for is anything that stems from Jesus. Rather Anglicanism is institutionalized Churchianity and as such will, like other institutions, pass into history but no without a fight from the very wealthy and the very self-righteous.

In a way I am saddened by my decision as I know there are some within the communion who will rightly take offence. For these I express my sorrow. For the vast majority, however, another communicant who walks out the door is of little concern.

I don't know where I will end up as far as a place of worship is concerned but to those against whom I have breed no ill will I simply say - sorry, but this too will pass.
 

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Whether along the path of Anglicanism, or that of another branch of the holy catholic church, the closer we draw to our Lord Jesus the Christ, the closer we draw each to another in love and fellowship.

Wherever the spirit dwells within the hearts of believers, wherever Christ is received in word and sacrament, there is the church holy and true.
 
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wayseer

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I accept I'm a prickly sort of person but it just that what more often passes as Christianity is pale shadow of the love of God I experience. My efforts have been directed at making the Church more significant in the 21st century. It is equally the case that the Anglican church is not going to move into the 21st century but remained locked in the past guarding it cathedrals and liturgy. God, on the other hand, is not contained by either.

The cosmos is the cathedral of God and his words are surely written here as anywhere else. And it may well be that science and physicists will provide the way forward for the Church in the 21st century. And in that I am find I am immensely excited.

Thank you all for your prayers of support.
 
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R_A

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I am sorry to hear you say that Christianity will evolve, has nothing specific or definitive, and will continue to mutate with the ever new generations of emotionally-driven worshippers.

I will stick to Anglicanism which, in the ideal sense, once we get past some of the mess going on today, is aimed at unchanging truths of God's revelation, God's nature, and the nature and obligations of Man.
 
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wayseer

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I am sorry to hear you say that Christianity will evolve, has nothing specific or definitive, and will continue to mutate with the ever new generations of emotionally-driven worshippers.

I will stick to Anglicanism which, in the ideal sense, once we get past some of the mess going on today, is aimed at unchanging truths of God's revelation, God's nature, and the nature and obligations of Man.

God changes - our job is to try to keep up with the continuing revelation of God not bury our head in the sand and pretend nothing is changing.
 
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R_A

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God changes

God changing implies that it wasn't perfectly said what he wanted to say originally or earlier. Which is in its very essence, emotional liberalism, agnosticism, and in the end, atheism.

Emotional touchy-feely worshippings are not a substitute for piety. Jesus wasn't an emotive emo misfit, but a man, full of intractable justice and love, who went to his death, with strength, firmness, and the infinite resolution of purpose.
 
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ebia

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R_A said:
God changing implies that it wasn't perfectly said what he wanted to say originally or earlier.
Or that God is committed to engaging in a real relationship with a developing creation.
 
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Drax

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God changing implies that it wasn't perfectly said what he wanted to say originally or earlier. Which is in its very essence, emotional liberalism, agnosticism, and in the end, atheism.

Emotional touchy-feely worshippings are not a substitute for piety. Jesus wasn't an emotive emo misfit, but a man, full of intractable justice and love, who went to his death, with strength, firmness, and the infinite resolution of purpose.

Exactly right. God is eternal, hence He is unchanging. But at STR, anything goes :D
 
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MKJ

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Saying God changes is theologically incoherent at the most basic level. We can say our perception of him or even our experience of him changes, not that he does. Talking about an entity that changes while existing outside of time is also dodgy, as modern physics will tell us. It is always nice when modern physics and other such endeavors confirm what philosophy has been saying for 3000 years, give or take, and I would not advocate ignoring those studies. I don't think God's revelation of himself through nature is going to somehow up-end God's revelation of himself through the Church.
 
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ebia

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MKJ said:
Saying God changes is theologically incoherent at the most basic level. We can say our perception of him or even our experience of him changes, not that he does. Talking about an entity that changes while existing outside of time is also dodgy, as modern physics will tell us. It is always nice when modern physics and other such endeavors confirm what philosophy has been saying for 3000 years, give or take, and I would not advocate ignoring those studies. I don't think God's revelation of himself through nature is going to somehow up-end God's revelation of himself through the Church.

In so far as something is outside time it makes no sense to say it changes or to say it doesn't change.

But God is also inside time...

The more I read scripture the more I'm convinced that the widespread Christian obsession with God as unchanging has far more to do with bringing philosophic ideas of what god ought to be like to the table than interest in how God reveals himself.
 
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wayseer

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God changing implies that it wasn't perfectly said what he wanted to say originally or earlier. Which is in its very essence, emotional liberalism, agnosticism, and in the end, atheism.

Let God know will you - he would appreciate the advice.

On the other you might want to pay closer attention to the biblical texts - there are any number of texts where God changed his mind.

Emotional touchy-feely worshippings are not a substitute for piety. Jesus wasn't an emotive emo misfit, but a man, full of intractable justice and love, who went to his death, with strength, firmness, and the infinite resolution of purpose.

Exactly - so what's that got to do with God not changing his mind? In fact the life and death and resurrection of Jesus is the great example of God changing his mind.
 
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wayseer

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Saying God changes is theologically incoherent at the most basic level.

... which is one reason for getting away from theology.

We can say our perception of him or even our experience of him changes, not that he does.

The premises does not lead naturally to your conclusion.

Talking about an entity that changes while existing outside of time is also dodgy, as modern physics will tell us.

From my understanding os physics that is exactly what happens at the quantum level.

But I am happy to be proved wrong.
 
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MKJ

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... which is one reason for getting away from theology.

Why? How is rejecting reason any different than rejecting science, which you seem to think is important? Science is also pretty much rendered useless if we do not think that reason can tell us about God.

The premises does not lead naturally to your conclusion.

You will have to say why you think so. We change, which means even our experience of something changeless itself can undergo change.

From my understanding os physics that is exactly what happens at the quantum level.

But I am happy to be proved wrong.

There is no quantum level outside the material universe (or other material universes that we don't know about.)
 
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wayseer

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Why? How is rejecting reason any different than rejecting science, which you seem to think is important? Science is also pretty much rendered useless if we do not think that reason can tell us about God.

Because bad theology, like bad science, is of no use to anyone.

I was, of course, responding to particularly bad piece of theology that suggested that a changing God is 'theologically incoherent'.

You will have to say why you think so. We change, which means even our experience of something changeless itself can undergo change.

Again I challenge a piece of illogic.

The premises was that one's experience of God may change - but such experience does not mean God changes.

First, you are raising two separate issues - one's experience of change and an assumption that God does not change and linking them in a way to question our experiences. In other words, are experience are, at best, unreliable. If our experiences are suspect how do we arrive at a position where we can make any statement at all?

It is the - if it smells like a fish, looks like a fish and tastes like a fish - it probably is a fish.

But for some reason our experience that God changes is 'incoherent' - only if you limit God.

Second - the assumption that God does not change is just that - an assumption where any number of biblical texts will indicate that God changes.

There is no quantum level outside the material universe (or other material universes that we don't know about.)

That was not what I was challenging.

You assumption is God lives outside of spacetime - something which is debatable at best. Jesus certainly didn't.

Then there is quantum gravity - which exists when the universe does not. Take away the chucks of rock and clouds of gas and you will still have something called spacetime operating.

To suggest that physics has some final answer is a bold statement indeed given the activity going on at present in search for the Higgs bosun.
 
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MKJ

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Because bad theology, like bad science, is of no use to anyone.

I was, of course, responding to particularly bad piece of theology that suggested that a changing God is 'theologically incoherent'.

If by responding you mean actually addressing the argument, no.

How would you respond to what Aristotle says about this, or Maimonides, or Hinduism, or Descartes? You are just saying you don't like the philosophical conclusions of pretty much every major religion and the vast majority of philosophical systems. That is a big claim - where do you think those arguments are flawed?



Again I challenge a piece of illogic.

The premises was that one's experience of God may change - but such experience does not mean God changes.

No, that is a conclusion, not a premise.

First, you are raising two separate issues - one's experience of change and an assumption that God does not change and linking them in a way to question our experiences. In other words, are experience are, at best, unreliable. If our experiences are suspect how do we arrive at a position where we can make any statement at all?

There is no assumption that God cannot change, as I said above. It is a very well described philosophical conclusion. The question of why we seem to experience change, or other qualities that do not properly belong to God such as wrath, is attached to our changableness. God is like a fixed point, the center of the circle, and we move around him along the edge. As we move, our orientation with relation to the unmoving center point moves as well. Our experience is our perception of events - we perceive a change because our perspective with relation to the fixed point has changed, not the point itself.

It is the - if it smells like a fish, looks like a fish and tastes like a fish - it probably is a fish.

But for some reason our experience that God changes is 'incoherent' - only if you limit God.

What's a limit? Being less than fully actualized would be one. It is incoherent because it doesn't make any sense. God cannot change and also be what gives reality to all things - Plato explains this quite succinctly.

Second - the assumption that God does not change is just that - an assumption where any number of biblical texts will indicate that God changes.

As above, the conclusion of a piece of reasoning, as well as being indicated by other Biblical texts, not an assumption.


You assumption is God lives outside of spacetime - something which is debatable at best. Jesus certainly didn't.

Again, it has nothing to do with assuming anything. The underlying source and ground of a thing cannot itself be contained by that thing.

Then there is quantum gravity - which exists when the universe does not. Take away the chucks of rock and clouds of gas and you will still have something called spacetime operating.

Your two statements here are saying different things. It is possible conceptually I suppose that one could have an empty universe made up a space-time structure - I don't know if it would be possible mathematically. But that does not make that structure something that is apart from the universe, and it certainly doesn't make it somehow self-existent or necessarily eternal.

It sounds like you've been reading Hawking's rather ham-fisted philosophical attempts.

To suggest that physics has some final answer is a bold statement indeed given the activity going on at present in search for the Higgs bosun.

Bold given the Higgs bosun? Um, no. That has no theological or philosophical significance at all - it is an interesting bit of science. Just because idiotic journalists call something the god particle doesn't mean it actually has anything more to do with God than any other particle does.
 
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R_A

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Let God know will you - he would appreciate the advice.
I don't think God needs me to tell him anything. He knew what I was going to say before the beginning of the world.

That's what an unchanging perfect infinite essence that we call God is. It's not a person with changing opinions, additional learning, etc. God has already known everything there would ever need to be known. That's what omniscience means.


On the other you might want to pay closer attention to the biblical texts - there are any number of texts where God changed his mind.
Ah yes, the famous fragment-citation as an approach to Biblical interpretation. By the same method, we can show that God can be surprised, or disappointed, when we know with 100% certainty that those are impossible.


In fact the life and death and resurrection of Jesus is the great example of God changing his mind.
Of course it isn't. The person of the Son was going to be incarnate before the beginning of the world. The whole of the Old Testament is one big arrow pointing to his incarnation and resurrection.

That's what I mean by liberalism and agnosticism that underlies the mindset I'm challenging in you. Once we accept certain basic premises, we turn Christianity from a rock-solid institution of cornerstone values and principles, into emotive psychedelic experiences, which can stand for anything we want them to (and decent people would be best to steer clear of).
 
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