• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria

AFrazier

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 1, 2016
1,345
389
53
Mauldin, South Carolina
✟272,127.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
The Chinese recorded a supernova-like event appearing in the constellation of Capricorn for 70 days from March - April 5 BC.

Detractors observe there are no supernova remnants in our Milky Way in that direction, and that local supernovae tend to be visible for longer periods of time.

However, galaxy NGC 6822, with its active ionized hydrogen HII region NGC 6818 (= IC 1308), is in the right area on the sky, at a distance of ~1-1.5 million lightyears, far enough away that a supernova there might only have been visible for 70 days at the peak of its brightness curve. (There's also a local Planetary Nebula, the "Little Gem Neubla", 6000 lightyears away in our own galaxy, thought to be around 9000 years old, so it first appeared on our skies 3000 years ago, and possibly flared up 2000 years ago (?).)

View attachment 369108

View attachment 369106View attachment 369107
I have all the Chinese and Korean literature. The 5 BCE event is only noted in the Encylopedia of Ma Tuan-lin, written around 1317 CE. None of the earlier records contain this anomaly. The Han-shu (History of the Former Han Dynasty) and the Samguk Sagi (the contemporary Korean chronicle) both list the anomaly for April of 4 BCE. They differ by a month, clearly through a scribal error in the Korean annal (2 and 3 are a difference of a horizontal line, and the number of days designated for the month are impossible in month two of the Chinese and Korean calendars).

The bushy star was in Hoku, which is approximately the constellation of Aquila, close to the arm of Sagittarius. And we have remnants of a supernova in Aquila, dated to the correct approximate time frame (Morehouse. "The Christmas Star as a Supernova in Aquila." The Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada 72.2 (April 1978). 65–68; A. J. B. Downes, T. Pauls, and C. J. Salter. "G 40.5–0.5: A Previously Unrecognised Supernova Remnant in Aquila." Astronomy and Astrophysics 92 (1980). 47–50).
 
Upvote 0

AFrazier

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 1, 2016
1,345
389
53
Mauldin, South Carolina
✟272,127.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
According to Perplexity AI:

Yes, several scholarly sources suggest that Herod may have taken an independent census, parallel to Augustus’s census in 8-7 BC, especially to help assess tribute and manage Judean affairs as Roman influence increased in Herod's final years .

Scholarly Support for a Herodian Census
W. M. Ramsay argued that Augustus’s general census policy was implemented in various territories at different times, and Judah’s census potentially occurred later, possibly around 5 BC, with Herod administering a census as Roman interest in Judean affairs grew near his death .

Sherwin-White and the
Handbook of Biblical Chronology also contend it is plausible Augustus requested Herod to enact a census, particularly as Herod lost imperial favor and became more subordinate to Roman authority. This could have included local adaptations for Jewish sensitivities, such as registration by tribal origin, helping Herod both to manage his realm and fulfill imperial demands .

Historical commentaries and researchers highlight that relations between Herod and Augustus became strained in Herod's later years, leading to increasing Roman oversight, and Augustus could have ordered census activities in Judea even while Herod remained king .

The census might have served both local administrative needs and the interests of Rome, by providing data for taxes, tribute, and imperial management .

Census as Political Tool
Herod’s census would have smoothed the way for Rome’s future direct administration and allowed Herod to maintain control over a delicate situation by using local customs, such as tribal registration, to avoid unrest .

Scholarly works note this approach prevented the revolt that followed the strictly Roman census under Quirinius in 6 CE .

Several historians and biblical scholars thus see the possibility of a census under Herod, parallel or preparatory to Augustus’s census policies, especially as Rome’s oversight increased .


If a full Roman style census in 6 AD sparked an uprising, perhaps Herod imposing a somewhat similar census 14 years earlier also sparked similar discontent? That would account for his paranoia and crackdown on opposition, even from his own children.

Also:

Some translations and scholarly sources note that the Greek word “protos” in Luke 2:2, commonly rendered “first,” can also mean “before.” This opens the possibility for the translation, “This census took place before Quirinius was governor of Syria” . The NIV’s footnotes acknowledge this variant possibility, and several commentaries discuss the implications for the historical chronology of Jesus’s birth.

Greek and Historical Considerations
The verse is sometimes argued to indicate a distinction between a “first” and a later, well-documented census under Quirinius, referenced by Gamaliel in Acts 5:37 .

Acts 5:37 references Judas the Galilean’s uprising specifically “in the days of the census,” which scholars directly connect to the Quirinius census of 6 CE . This census led to major unrest and the formation of the Zealot party. The passage helps distinguish between this infamous census and the earlier event mentioned in Luke 2:2, which is described as the “first” registration, suggesting Luke was aware of multiple censuses
Protos is an adjective or adverb. It's not a preposition. It doesn't translate as "before." Since you are cool with A. I., plug in the question, "Can, or should, πρώτη be translated as a preposition?"
 

Attachments

  • 1756333933312.gif
    1756333933312.gif
    43 bytes · Views: 4
  • 1756333933332.gif
    1756333933332.gif
    43 bytes · Views: 4
  • 1756333933352.gif
    1756333933352.gif
    43 bytes · Views: 3
  • 1756333933359.gif
    1756333933359.gif
    43 bytes · Views: 2
  • 1756333933319.gif
    1756333933319.gif
    43 bytes · Views: 4
  • 1756333933365.gif
    1756333933365.gif
    43 bytes · Views: 3
  • 1756333933326.gif
    1756333933326.gif
    43 bytes · Views: 3
  • 1756333933373.gif
    1756333933373.gif
    43 bytes · Views: 4
  • 1756333933346.gif
    1756333933346.gif
    43 bytes · Views: 3
  • 1756333933340.gif
    1756333933340.gif
    43 bytes · Views: 3
  • 1756333933379.gif
    1756333933379.gif
    43 bytes · Views: 2
Upvote 0