This thread was suggested to me by an SDA

[cruztacean]

...so I'm taking him up on it.

I posted this on another thread

I understand that SDA's CLAIM to believe there will be saints from every denomination. But my experience with them as far as what they act as if they DO believe is quite different. I have observed more than one shaking their heads after speaking to a happy, joy-filled Christian from another denomination, and say, "There's nothing sadder than someone who thinks they're saved and isn't." And after one Bible class, in which it was noted from Mrs. White's writings that Satan will continue to be punished long after others have been obliterated, someone observed, "And right there with him will be all those Sunday people." No one refuted the statement.

So does the official church literature say that there will be saved Christians from other denominations? Yes. Does the average SDA actually believe that? Not in my experience.

Which got this response:

Sounds like you were a pretty ill-informed SDA

I have a suggestion for you. Try going to the adventist forum on this site and ask them if they believe great Christians like Luthar, Wesley, Calvin and the other great reformers will be lost simply be cause they did not accept the sabbath. Ask if they think William Miller is lost because he never accepted the sabbath. Ask them if they think the billions of Christian Sunday keepers that came before the Advent movement are all lost.

I'm guessing that the typical answer will be, "Well, no, they're not lost because they didn't know any better."

So I think the real question is, what about people like me who have heard every argument there is and just don't believe it to be true? I guess I can prepare to be obliterated, right?

Although I was raised in another denomination, I was a Seventh-day Adventist from 1983 to 1992; that's nearly a decade of my adult life. So I don't think I'm "ill-informed;" I'm just going by what I personally saw and heard. I wanted to call this the "See if you can win me back to the church" thread, but I thought it would be too inflammatory and I doubt any of you can.

My complaint with the church goes far beyond the Sabbath, however, and if you'd like me to list them all specifically I can. It would just be too long for one post. There is nothing I would like better than to have a thoughtful dialogue with people who can answer questions about my experience. If you promise not to flame me for even bringing it up, I'll promise not to flame you.

 

[tall73]

I am the SDA who suggested it as a more productive locatio than the Sabbath thread in GT

Hello!

 

[OntheDL]

...so I'm taking him up on it.

I posted this on another threadWhich got this response:

I'm guessing that the typical answer will be, "Well, no, they're not lost because they didn't know any better."

So I think the real question is, what about people like me who have heard every argument there is and just don't believe it to be true? I guess I can prepare to be obliterated, right?

Although I was raised in another denomination, I was a Seventh-day Adventist from 1983 to 1992; that's nearly a decade of my adult life. So I don't think I'm "ill-informed;" I'm just going by what I personally saw and heard. I wanted to call this the "See if you can win me back to the church" thread, but I thought it would be too inflammatory and I doubt any of you can.

My complaint with the church goes far beyond the Sabbath, however, and if you'd like me to list them all specifically I can. It would just be too long for one post. There is nothing I would like better than to have a thoughtful dialogue with people who can answer questions about my experience. If you promise not to flame me for even bringing it up, I'll promise not to flame you.

Hi,

Most people go to the church don't know very well the bible. Same case with SDAs, many of them don't know what they believe. I don't know what exactly transpired so I can't comment on the conversation.

About the sabbath-sunday issue...the bible is very clear: anyone who knowingly break the commandments of God are not saved or have not been born again yet.

If someone sins ignorantly, the blood of christ covers it. If someone knows the truth but by choice not to follow God, then it's an act of rebellion. The same goes for those who reject by ignoring.

It doesn't mean they are lost forever. But they have to repent and turn from their own ways before they are called to judgment.

 

[moicherie]

Sorry for your experience cruz. Our relationship with God gets us to heaven not what we know or don't know the sooner we realise that the better. Some Adventists get more and more like the NT Pharisees every Sabbath.
I really believe God takes some people away from this kind of Adventist mindset- yes the Adventist church to save them cos some of us are cold blooded stumbling blocks.

 

[OntheDL]

Sorry for your experience cruz. Our relationship with God gets us to heaven not what we know or don't know the sooner we realise that the better. Some Adventists get more and more like the NT Pharisees every Sabbath.
I really believe God takes some people away from this kind of Adventist mindset- yes the Adventist church to save them cos some of us are cold blooded stumbling blocks.

If we know the good to do, but do it not, then we don't have a good relationship with God. Right?

 

[StormyOne]

If we know the good to do, but do it not, then we don't have a good relationship with God. Right?

That would be God's call... too many examples in the bible of people who knew what was right and did the opposite... David, Samson, Moses, Paul... yet they had a relationship with God and He continued to work in their lives in spite of their shortcomings....

The reality is as long as its not willful rebellion, God will cover you with his grace. The stories of the lost coin, and lost sheep tell us that... Even the story of of the prodical's son, we often emphasize the son's rebellion, but it is the attitude of the father that we need to focus on... After all that wrongdoing, the son was accepted back and restored......

So as I said, it is God's call, and I am thankful for that cause humans are quick to throw folks into hell...

 

[OntheDL]

That would be God's call... too many examples in the bible of people who knew what was right and did the opposite... David, Samson, Moses, Paul... yet they had a relationship with God and He continued to work in their lives in spite of their shortcomings....

The reality is as long as its not willful rebellion, God will cover you with his grace. The stories of the lost coin, and lost sheep tell us that... Even the story of of the prodical's son, we often emphasize the son's rebellion, but it is the attitude of the father that we need to focus on... After all that wrongdoing, the son was accepted back and restored......

So as I said, it is God's call, and I am thankful for that cause humans are quick to throw folks into hell...

Yeah, we can be thankful God's mercyful and longsuffering. And He is always waiting for His people to come back.

The stories of Saul and David are perfect examples. God called both of them to repent. Saul did not and was lost. Had David not repented he too would have been lost after the horrible sins he committed.

While it causes God great deal of pain those that are lost, He is just that He does not force salvation onto us.

Just like in marriage, when we do not do the right thing, the relationship suffers.

 

[HoneyDew]

Thanks, moicherie and StormyOne for your thoughtful comments. Sometimes I get the impression that some of us just CAN'T wait to get a hold of those books to judge our fellowman.

 

[Cliff2]

...so I'm taking him up on it.

I posted this on another threadWhich got this response:

I'm guessing that the typical answer will be, "Well, no, they're not lost because they didn't know any better."

So I think the real question is, what about people like me who have heard every argument there is and just don't believe it to be true? I guess I can prepare to be obliterated, right?

Although I was raised in another denomination, I was a Seventh-day Adventist from 1983 to 1992; that's nearly a decade of my adult life. So I don't think I'm "ill-informed;" I'm just going by what I personally saw and heard. I wanted to call this the "See if you can win me back to the church" thread, but I thought it would be too inflammatory and I doubt any of you can.

My complaint with the church goes far beyond the Sabbath, however, and if you'd like me to list them all specifically I can. It would just be too long for one post. There is nothing I would like better than to have a thoughtful dialogue with people who can answer questions about my experience. If you promise not to flame me for even bringing it up, I'll promise not to flame you.

I hope you feel free to discus your concerns about the Adventist Church without being torn apart.

It would be a great shame to us if that even partly happened.

So go ahead and see how we go. You may well be surprised to see how loving your family is.

Blessings

 

[cruztacean]

Thanks for the responses so far. I'll probably sit on it a day or two before I start addressing concerns because I'm having a bad day and I've already had some trouble controlling my emotions. And I really don't want to stick my virtual foot in my mouth just because I can't control myself very well.

I have more trouble over SDA people than SDA doctrine, although I do have trouble with the doctrine also. Some of it I've already posted in another thread. But I'll wait until I can behave myself before I go into details.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

..

So I think the real question is, what about people like me who have heard every argument there is and just don't believe it to be true? I guess I can prepare to be obliterated, right?

You know what i think about you? I think you made the correct decision and you do not lose your salvation for doing so... The thing is that most Adventist believe in this faith + works = Salvation idea which is absent from the bible... Some Adventist do believe in justification by faith in Yeshua alone, these are less traditional in there belifes and most of them don't even except Ellen G.W as a inspired prophetess.... "I indeed belong to this group of Seventh Day Adventist" believers and our mission is to properly preach the gospel of grace as taught in scripture to some Adventist believers that are bent towards legalism.. We do not believe that obsrevance of any commandments saves, the bible clearly reveals what is the only works that saves that is to believe in the one G-d has sent [John 6: 28- 29].... Most Adventisit believe in preformance in order to be found worthy of eternal life, but (Titus 3) is pretty clear that we are not saved by works done in righteousness... 4But after the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,

6 which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Believe me i know exactely how you feel.. The way most Adventist observe the Shabbat is not biblical, Why? Because they attach there Salvation to it's observance and by so doing they have lost many members, some have even repudiated the Sabbath Commandment because Adventist have misrepersented the "Sabbath" to them, giving it salvific importance, and shunning those as no longer being saved who left the Adventist belife and now repudiate the Shabbat because of there misrepersentation of the commandment... It seems to me that Yeshua is just not enough for some Adventist... I also love the fact that some Adventist love to jump on the Catholic Church, yet in a since they are no different, they teach a doctrine that came from Rom Faith + works = Salvation... [something to think about]...

 

[ThreeAM]

You know what i think about you? I think you made the correct decision and you do not lose your salvation for doing so... The thing is that most Adventist believe in this faith + works = Salvation idea which is absent from the bible... Some Adventist do believe in justification by faith in Yeshua alone, these are less traditional in there belifes and most of them don't even except Ellen G.W as a inspired prophetess.... "I indeed belong to this group of Seventh Day Adventist" believers and our mission is to properly preach the gospel of grace as taught in scripture to some Adventist believers that are bent towards legalism.. We do not believe that obsrevance of any commandments saves, the bible clearly reveals what is the only works that saves that is to believe in the one G-d has sent [John 6: 28- 29].... Most Adventisit believe in preformance in order to be found worthy of eternal life, but (Titus 3) is pretty clear that we are not saved by works done in righteousness... 4But after the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 He saved us not by works of righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and by the renewing of the Holy Ghost,

6 which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Believe me i know exactely how you feel.. The way most Adventist observe the Shabbat is not biblical, Why? Because they attach there Salvation to it's observance and by so doing they have lost many members, some have even repudiated the Sabbath Commandment because Adventist have misrepersented the "Sabbath" to them, giving it salvific importance, and shunning those as no longer being saved who left the Adventist belife and now repudiate the Shabbat because of there misrepersentation of the commandment... It seems to me that Yeshua is just not enough for some Adventist... I also love the fact that some Adventist love to jump on the Catholic Church, yet in a since they are no different, they teach a doctrine that came from Rom Faith + works = Salvation... [something to think about]...

We cannot be saved by our own works. This is Number ten of the 28 doctrines of the SDA church. The SDA church does not teach salvation by works.

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

10. The Experience of Salvation:
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)

Here are some scriptures that apply.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Tts 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him;

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Tts 2:11 For the GRACE of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through FAITH UNTO SALVATION ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

We cannot be saved by our own works. This is Number ten of the 28 doctrines of the SDA church. The SDA church does not teach salvation by works. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)

Here are some scriptures that apply.

You're going to tell me this, a baptised memeber of a Traditional Adventist Church, who has studied all of the doctrines? The Traditional Adventist Church does teach that one can prove to be righteous by how well he preforms, they do believe in a works based salvation.. This may be harsh, but most of them don't believe Yeshua is enough, they believe they have to work work & work to be found worthy..

 

[cruztacean]

We cannot be saved by our own works. This is Number ten of the 28 doctrines of the SDA church. The SDA church does not teach salvation by works.

There is sometimes a difference between what is taught in the official church literature, and what the typical Adventist believes, teaches, and preaches. Official church literature teaches that salvation is by grace alone. Typical Adventists act as if you are lost if you violate one minute of the Sabbath. These are the ones who have sunset charts in their homes and count down, "OK, sabbath ends in three seconds.... two.... one.... Good, now we can go to the store." Legalism. Nothing but.

Official church literature teaches "the Bible, and the Bible only." OK, so where do all these other books come from? I was actually told by my Bible study teacher, "We don't question what Mrs. White says, because we know she was inspired." This woman was not "ill-informed;" she was a third-generation Adventist. OK, so it's really the Bible plus whatever Mrs. White says. One street evangelist told me, at a time I was still an Adventist, that Mrs. White is nothing more than the Adventist version of the Pope. I don't know about that, but I don't see a difference between Mrs. White versus Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy. Certainly I saw more quoting of Mrs. White during a service, than I did of the Bible.

Official church literature teaches that women should not wear makeup or jewelry, which are worldly and in violation of certain Scriptures. Yet, as one outsider put it, "Every one of them wears a really fancy, expensive bracelet, but they put a timepiece in it, so they say it's OK."

In other threads I mentioned the woman (happens to be the Bible study teacher who came up earlier) who wouldn't come and pick me up to save me from my abusive, under-the-influence husband because the sun was due to set in two minutes. Church also counseled me to stay with that husband, because women are supposed to be submissive. We had two small children, and he wouldn't even bother going to look for work sometimes, but I shouldn't go get a job myself, because a woman's place is in the home.

My ex-husband was so extremely messy that it was impossible to keep a house clean behind him. The fact that we have been separated for years now, and I'm the one living in a reasonably orderly house while he lives like Oscar the Grouch in a trash can, shows where the problem was. But visitors to our home were constantly judging ME by the mess. I received more than one copy of "The Adventist Home" to show I wasn't running mine properly, and oh boy, did my ex get a big charge out of it when one woman pulled him aside and said, "You really need to get onto your wife more about the house." I'll grant her points for having said it in private, but he certainly took glee in bringing to me what she had said.

In another thread I also mentioned the potluck after Sabbath service, where I'm holding one child and feeding another one when my ex hurls a demand at me that I get up and get him some more juice. I shot back, "When did you lose the use of your legs?" Whereupon a deacon stood up, smiled at him and glared at me, and went and got the juice. Bad wife! (smack on wrist) Not submissive!

There are more, but this could create quite a bit of discussion now.

 

[BigJimP]

For the record, I am the OP's husband, and that's why I'm interested in this conversation. Present husband, that is, not the one mentioned before. I wouldn't treat her like that.

What I want to know is, for a church that claims "the Bible, and the Bible only," how come there is any other "official church literature" at all? It seems the only "official church literature" ought to be the Bible.

While we're on the subject, I've seen those Bible studies that claim the Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath commandment. I was raised Catholic and graduated from a Catholic school, all twelve years. How come I never encountered that question-and-answer that is supposedly from Catholic teaching? "We worship on Sunday because the church says so" never came up in my catechism.

In high school, we didn't even call it catechism any more. We called it religion class, one year of which was apologetics. We never, ever came across that part about the church having the power to change the Sabbath commandment. The only time I have seen this addressed, the only time it is ever said that the Catholic church changed the Sabbath, is in Seventh-day Adventist literature.

 

[ThreeAM]

You're going to tell me this, a baptised memeber of a Traditional Adventist Church, who has studied all of the doctrines? The Traditional Adventist Church does teach that one can prove to be righteous by how well he preforms, they do believe in a works based salvation.. This may be harsh, but most of them don't believe Yeshua is enough, they believe they have to work work & work to be found worthy..

You should probably let adventist speak for themselves and not speak for them. Sure their are Adventists that are confused. Most of the well informed Adventist I know understand you cannot work your way into heaven.

No we don't believe in good works to BE SAVED. No on can work their way into heaven..absolutly NO ONE.

We are saved by the perfect work Christ did. Our work is already flawed and deserving of death.

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Rom 3: 9-10 What then? are we better than they No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be ADDED UNTO YOU.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;



1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: WHOSOEVER DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT OF GOD, neither he that loveth not his brother.

When we are saved God calls us out of sin. We should not continue to conciously sin against God. We should try not to sin. The bible says sin is transgression of the law. When God looks at us he sees Christ sinless blood which covers our sin. We have a responsibilty to Christ to become more Christ like in our behavior and to avoid sin but we must remember its Christ's righteousness that God will see not our own because we cannot be righteous from our own efforts.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

You should probably let adventist speak for themselves and not speak for them. Sure their are Adventists that are confused. Most of the well informed Adventist I know understand you cannot work your way into heaven.

There is no confused Adventist, what they have is a confused theology, even the well informed Adventist don't understand justification by faith in Yeshua alone " they try to [unsuccesfully] add works to there salvation" it's a teaching that sprung from the master teacher Ellen White, she strongly believed that one had to work to be found worthy of salvation, and why did she believe in righteousness by works? Was it her fault? Partially is the answere thanks to Edison vision of Yeshua entering the Most Holy Place 1844, a teaching that has no such biblical foundation... I'l take it this far, 95% of Ellen Whites doctrines are not even her ideas they are Millers, Crosiers, Edison and many others... Furthermore, the Investigative Judgement Doctrine teaches a concept of meriting salvation by your preformance this has been discussed extensively in other threads..

No we don't believe in good works to BE SAVED. No on can work their way into heaven..absolutly NO ONE.

Again, Traditional Seventh Day Adventist do believe they have to work to be saved.. What your attempting to do is like most Adventist play with words, as most Traditional Adventist do... No offence but you do not have me fooled.

 

[ThreeAM]

There is no confused Adventist, what they have is a confused theology, even the well informed Adventist don't understand justification by faith in Yeshua alone " they try to [unsuccesfully] add works to there salvation" it's a teaching that sprung from the master teacher Ellen White, she strongly believed that one had to work to be found worthy of salvation, and why did she believe in righteousness by works? Was it her fault? Partially is the answere thanks to Edison vision of Yeshua entering the Most Holy Place 1844, a teaching that has no such biblical foundation... I'l take it this far, 95% of Ellen Whites doctrines are not even her ideas they are Millers, Crosiers, Edison and many others... Furthermore, the Investigative Judgement Doctrine teaches a concept of meriting salvation by your preformance this has been discussed extensively in other threads..

Again, Traditional Seventh Day Adventist do believe they have to work to be saved.. What your attempting to do is like most Adventist play with words, as most Traditional Adventist do... No offence but you do not have me fooled.

I'm not trying to fool you. I do not beleive in salvation by works my family does not beleive in it. I'm a thrid generation Adventist. I don't know anyone in my Chruch that has every expressed to me that we are saved by works. I do beleive that true Christians have good works. Qbedience is a sign of the Holy Spirit working in us which is a sign of sanctification.

NKJV Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise..

Look what God promised Abraham's seed

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THAT DOES SANCTIFY YOU.

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for insix days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

We just need to decide who Abraham's seed realy is today. Paul said if we are Christ's were are Abraham's seed. God told Isreal that the sabbath is a sign of sanctification a sign between Israel and God. So FAITH in Christ leads to GRACE which imparts Christ's RIGHTEOUNESS which leads SALVATION which leads to SANCTIFICATION which leads to OBEDIENCE which does result in Good WORKS.. That is the reason the Sabbath is a perpetual sign of sanctification between God and His people FOREVER.


Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus.

The FAITH in Jesus leads to the keeping of the commandments because we love Jesus not to earn salvation. Salvation is a gift from Christ..obedience is a sign of our love for Christ.

 

[ThreeAM]

For the record, I am the OP's husband, and that's why I'm interested in this conversation. Present husband, that is, not the one mentioned before. I wouldn't treat her like that.

What I want to know is, for a church that claims "the Bible, and the Bible only," how come there is any other "official church literature" at all? It seems the only "official church literature" ought to be the Bible.

While we're on the subject, I've seen those Bible studies that claim the Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath commandment. I was raised Catholic and graduated from a Catholic school, all twelve years. How come I never encountered that question-and-answer that is supposedly from Catholic teaching? "We worship on Sunday because the church says so" never came up in my catechism.

In high school, we didn't even call it catechism any more. We called it religion class, one year of which was apologetics. We never, ever came across that part about the church having the power to change the Sabbath commandment. The only time I have seen this addressed, the only time it is ever said that the Catholic church changed the Sabbath, is in Seventh-day Adventist literature.

Do you believe in the Gifts of the Spirit? Are we not to listen to God's prophets when God speaks to us through them?

1 cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

What is a remnant of cloth? The last of the cloth.

We believe the Renant of the Woman's [Church's] seed is the last days church because they keep the commandments AND that the testimony of Jesus Christ

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What is the Testimony of Jesus Christ?

Rev 1:1-2 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;[Prophecy] and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. [John a prophet recorded God's prophecy.]

Here is another example of what the Testimony of Jesus Christ is.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

So the renant or last of the Woman's [The Church] will keep the Commandments ans have the Spirit of prophecy.

Not all prophets in the bible have written boooks of the bible. John the baptist never wrote a book in the bible but his role at prophecying the coming of Christ had particular importance to God's people of John the Baptist's day. There are several other prophets that God has sent his people mentioned in the scripture but who did not write the scriptures...should have God's people just ignored these messengers from God?

Acts 21:8-9 And the next [day] we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

So prophecy is a gift of the Spirit and we still have gifts of the Spirit today, Not all prophets that God has sent have written their message in the scriptures. The bible says we will see prophets in the last days. The bible says the woman's remnant seed will keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ
which is the Spirit of Prophecy.

I have a copy of a catechism where the Catholic Church claims to have change the day of worship to sunday. There are lots of such quotes from catholic writtings. They wrote this stuff we only provide what they wrote. Here are a few:

The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians.
Source: The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company, Online Edition © 1999 by Kevin Knight, Nihil Obstat - Remy Lafort, Censor Imprimatur - +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York, page 153.

But the Church of God has in her wisdom ordained that the celebration of the Sabbath should be transferred to "the Lord's day:" as on that day light first shown on the world, so by the resurrection of our Lord on the same day, by whom was thrown open to us the gate to eternal life, we were called out of darkness into light; and hence the Apostle would have it called "the Lord's day." We also learn from the sacred Volume that the first day of the week was held sacred for other reasons: on that day the work of the creation commenced, and on that day the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles.
Source: The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Issued by order of Pope Pius V, first published by W. Folds and Son, Great Strand-Street. Published by Richard Coyne, Capel-street, Dublin; and by Keating and Browne, London, 1829, Copyright 1975 and Reprinted 1985 by The Christian Book Club of America, Hawthorne, California, 90251, The Third Commandment, pages 383, 387.

Q. How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
A. By the very act of changing the sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.
Source: The Douay Catechism (An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine) of 1649, by Henry Tuberville, D.D., published by P. J. Kenedy, Excelsior Catholic Publishing House, 5 Barclay Street, New York, approved and recommended for his diocese by the Right Rev. Benedict, Bishop of Boston, April 24th, 1833, pages 57, 58. Text of The Douay Catechismonline.

pg. 174]
Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her;—she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.

[pg. 181]
Q. In what manner can we show a Protestant, that he speaks unreasonably against fasts and abstinences?
A. Ask him why he keeps Sunday, and not Saturday, as his day of rest, since he is unwilling either to fast or to abstain. If he reply, that the Scripture orders him to keep the Sunday, but says nothing as to fasting and abstinence, tell him the Scripture speaks of Saturday or the Sabbath, but gives no command anywhere regarding Sunday or the first day of the week. If, then, he neglects Saturday as a day of rest and holiness, and substitutes Sunday in its place, and this merely because such was the usage of the ancient Church, should he not, if he wishes to act consistently, observe fasting and abstinence, because the ancient Church so ordained?
Source: A Doctrinal Catechism by Stephen Keenan, Imprimatur by John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York, Third American Edition, Published by P. J. Kenedy and Sons, New York, Copyright 1876 by T. W. Strong, pages 174, 181. Text of A Doctrinal Catechism online.

Is it true that the Catholic Church substituted the observance of Sunday for the observance of the Bible Sabbath?—and is it true that so-called Protestants contradict themselves weekly by trampling underfoot the Bible seventh day Sabbath, and accept the Catholic Sunday, all the while rejecting the other festivals of the Church? And is it true, as is stated in Keenan's Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174, that the Catholic Church holds this very act as the mark of her power in religious matters?

It is true that Protestants contradict their "Bible Only" theory by keeping the Sunday instead of Saturday, because nowhere in the Bible can a clear text be found to show that Christ changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. From tradition only, which Protestants claim to reject, can Sunday observance be justified. It is not true that the Catholic Church parades the world wide Christian custom as a sign of her power in religious matters, but she refers to it as an instance of Protestant inconsistency. Saturday was the Sabbath day and observed as such even by Christ. Only after His return to Heaven did the Apostles, (in other words the Church), substitute Sunday for Saturday, for several reasons; among them, (1) because Christ rose from the dead on Sunday; (2) because the Holy Holy Ghost descended on the apostles on Sunday, and (3) because emphasis must be laid on the fact that the old dispensation had come to an end, and a new era, with a new religion inaugurated. The first converts to the Christian faith were Jews, who, even after their conversion, wanted to comply with their traditional Mosaic Law. The best way was to wean them away from this was to change the very day, on which, as members of the Hebrew Church, they had been accustomed to worship God.
Source: Our Sunday Visitor, of Huntington Indiana, October 26, 1913, Bureau of Information, page 3.

And thanks for being a good husband ..its sounds like she deserved a change for the better.

 

[cruztacean]

Thank you, ThreeAM for your references. My husband isn't home right now, but I will show him these things when he comes back. Like him, I had also never seen those statements made outside of Seventh-day Adventist literature, and I wondered too if it was just something SDA's made up about Catholics. But since you gave references online, I was able to go to those sites and read the words in Catholic literature. Yep, it's there all right.

You may recall I said on the other thread, though, that I already realize that no part of the sabbath commandment has been transferred to Sunday, not with any scriptural authority anyway. I do not believe that Sunday is the "New Testament Sabbath." I believe that the Sabbath was, yes was, symbolic, and that Christ is the substance. I still stand by that. It has been pointed out that the sabbath commandment is the only one not repeated explicitly in the New Testament, and no, I don't think "Pray that your flight not take place in winter or on the Sabbath day" counts as repeating the commandment.

The Sabbath aside, other problems I have with the church are not solved. Would I listen to a prophet of God? Sure, if I believed that person to be a prophet of God. I still haven't seen anyone prove where Mrs. White is any different from Mrs. Eddy or Mr. Smith. Anybody can claim to be delivering God's message. So she was hit on the head and didn't have more than a third grade education. How does that make her a prophet? Can't prove it by me. And I still stand by this: "the Bible and the Bible only" means exactly that. Not "the Bible and Mrs. White." Your "spirit of prophecy" argument does not prove Mrs. White in particular to be a prophet.

You can also quote me every Scripture in the Bible that has the word "commandment" in it, and highlight the word "commandment," and it's still not going to prove to me that the seventh-day Sabbath is still in effect.

So I would say it's highly doubtful that I will ever again be a Seventh-day Adventist. Will I someday accept the Sabbath again? Maybe. That depends on my study, and I assure you I will continue studying. Not what someone tells me the Bible says, but what I see in it myself. But I will never again be a Seventh-day Adventist. You can rest assured on that.