This Silver Ring Thing.

[Crispie]

Its a promise ring, nothing wrong with promising to keep your virginity for your wife or husband.

 

[justaman]

In past decades, when premarital sex was less common than today, there were far fewer divorces.
Now, when premarital sex is the norm, there is 50% of divorce.

Now give me the statistics of how many of those marriages forced to stay in place where actually happy ones.

The rise of the divorce rate isn't because of an increase in sexual knowledge, it's a reduction in the taboo of getting out of something that is not healthy.

 

[Riddick]

A more elloquent expression of time spent too long with one person I've never heard. Sex does indeed become so mundane when you spend years with the one person. Sex with new people never does. But hey, it works for you and that's cool, but it's because it does not work for most people that so many affairs are had.

Actually, that's wrong. Unfortunately, you won't be 23 years old for the rest of your life. One day, when you've turned 40, you'll realize that all those ladies look oldish. You will, at that time, actually prefer not to see the females nether regions. Because it is all old and gross. And there is definately not that 20 something female body to get you wound up. Erm, you've got about 17 years left, by my count, so I'd make the most of it if I were you.

Oh, and one more thing, don't think about AIDs while you're having sex. But, Magic Johnson's life doesn't seem so bad with it.

 

[Lifesaver]

Now give me the statistics of how many of those marriages forced to stay in place where actually happy ones.

The rise of the divorce rate isn't because of an increase in sexual knowledge, it's a reduction in the taboo of getting out of something that is not healthy.

Ah yes, people are psychologically healthier now. Hence the increase of depression and suicide rates.

 

[The Bellman]

Some facts:

- the US and the UK, the two western nations where the abstinence message is most prominently preached and supported, both have terrible teen pregnancy rates (53 births per 1000 teenagers)

- nations like Sweden and Denmark, which have dropped the abstinence preaching and instead promoted sex education including contraception, come in near the bottom of the list (7 births per 1000 teenagers)

- in 1975, in Sweden, recommendations of abstinence and sex-only-within-marriage were dropped, contraceptive education was made explicit, and a nationwide network of youth clinics was established specifically to provide confidential contraceptive advice and free contraceptives to young people. The result was Sweden's teen pregnancy rate dropping by 80% over the next 20 years.

- The Silver Ring Thing and similar programs actually increase the rate of teenage pregnancy (see Alba DiCenso et al, 15th June 2002. Interventions To Reduce Unintended Pregnancies Among Adolescents: Systematic Review Of Randomised Controlled Trials. British Medical Journal 324:1426)

- George Bush has done his bit to push the "abstinence only" line. When these programmes failed to reduce the teen birthrate, he instructed the US Centers for Disease Control to stop gathering data.

- Bush also forced them to drop their project identifying the sex education programmes which work, after they found that none of the successful ones were “abstinence-only”

- Bush's record as governor of Texas gives us a good indication of the success of these campaigns. He spent $10m on abstinence campaigns there, with the result that Texas has the 4th-highest rate of HIV infection in the Union, and the slowest decline of any state in the birthrate among 15-17 year-olds.

The above is a summary of many points made at:

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/05/11/waging-war-with-the-virgin-soldiers/

 

[justaman]

Ah yes, people are psychologically healthier now.

Never said that. I'm saying it's been more or less constant.

Hence the increase of depression and suicide rates.

Increase of depression and suicide statistics. You think depression is something new, do you?

 

[justaman]

Actually, that's wrong. Unfortunately, you won't be 23 years old for the rest of your life.

I dispute that. So far so good.

One day, when you've turned 40, you'll realize that all those ladies look oldish. You will, at that time, actually prefer not to see the females nether regions. Because it is all old and gross. And there is definately not that 20 something female body to get you wound up. Erm, you've got about 17 years left, by my count, so I'd make the most of it if I were you.

Why do you think I'm trynig to get all the sexual experience out of the way now??? I don't think you're countering my point very well...

Oh, and one more thing, don't think about AIDs while you're having sex. But, Magic Johnson's life doesn't seem so bad with it.

OOOooooboogeyboogeyboogeyboogey OOOOOOooooooooooboogeyboogeyboogeyboogey!!!!

When you're driving don't think about crashing and winding up in a wheelchair, or without an arm, or hideously disfigured for life. In fact you're really just better off staying in a single room with a single bed and white sheets and never go outside.

Riddick that was the dumbest comment I've ever seen you make.

 

[The Bellman]

Actually, that's wrong. Unfortunately, you won't be 23 years old for the rest of your life. One day, when you've turned 40, you'll realize that all those ladies look oldish. You will, at that time, actually prefer not to see the females nether regions. Because it is all old and gross. And there is definately not that 20 something female body to get you wound up. Erm, you've got about 17 years left, by my count, so I'd make the most of it if I were you.

Thats simply stupid. I'm over 40, and I still like to see "females nether regions". They're not "gross". How childish.

Oh, and one more thing, don't think about AIDs while you're having sex.

Who thinks about AIDS while they're having sex? Why would they? It's a possible adverse consequence, with a VERY small chance of happening. You have a much greater chance of dying in a car crash...so should we all stop driving? Or just take care to be as careful as we can while driving?

 

[Seeking...]

Well for the flip side of the coin...

I have this friend who was a pretty good Christian girl when she got married and she married a good Christian guy. He is the only person she has ever been intimate with. They are separated now and sexual incompatibility definately ranks up there as one of their biggest problems as far as she is concerned. They simply to not mesh sexually which only compounds any other problems they have.

Honestly - many of those abstinence programs go so far as to make couples uncomfortable touching each other in non-sexual ways because the familiarity can lead to sexual touch. I can understand that some will want to wait for marriage, but I don't understand the all or nothing attitude about it.

Many who abstain act as if sex is some sacred gift that everyone else is dirtying up by just talking about it. More that just the sex act - couples who are so desparate to avoid sex before marriage often don't learn a lot of things about each other prior to marriage because lots of topics or activities that aren't demonstrably sexual are still considered unsafe. There are couples right now who won't do more than hug w/ a quick peck - who won't allow themselves to be alone for long periods - for fear of being drawn into intimacy. Please - that to me is destructive. Not all intimacies should be left to marriage. You should be able to at least TALK about everything before marriage. Desires and expectations. What is the point of marrying a virtual stranger?

 

[Lifesaver]

That is true.

 

[Riddick]

OOOooooboogeyboogeyboogeyboogey OOOOOOooooooooooboogeyboogeyboogeyboogey!!!!

When you're driving don't think about crashing and winding up in a wheelchair, or without an arm, or hideously disfigured for life. In fact you're really just better off staying in a single room with a single bed and white sheets and never go outside.

Riddick that was the dumbest comment I've ever seen you make.

You're going to need a lot sharper material than that. Bring me a better take.

You got run.

 

[Riddick]

Thats simply stupid. I'm over 40, and I still like to see "females nether regions". They're not "gross". How childish.

Who thinks about AIDS while they're having sex? Why would they? It's a possible adverse consequence, with a VERY small chance of happening. You have a much greater chance of dying in a car crash...so should we all stop driving? Or just take care to be as careful as we can while driving?

40-year old poontang leaves a lot to be desired. I prefer twenty-something poontang. Now, if you prefer 40+ poontang, have at it, I'll even point a few your direction, if you want.

I was more generally pointing to the marriage arrangement for a sexual relationship. Then, there is definately a very small chance of something bad happening. The more cars you bounce into, the more likely it is you'll die.

 

[seebs]

Do you think the road trip is likely to have strong emotions surrounding it?

Er, yeah.

Again, sex itself isn't really the problem. It's the attitude that is the cause for abstinance that is the problem, abstinance itself is really only a symptom.

But you're begging the question; you're assuming that abstinence is a result of a specific attitude, and then condemning abstinence for stemming from that attitude.

Having said that, my definition of a 'relationship' necessarily includes sex. I mean when it comes down to it, biologically speaking, what other reason is there for it? If humans didn't desire to procreate, there would appear very little reason for a monogomous partnership between two different types of the same species. Companionship etc yeah, but then you really don't need a female for that necessarily, do you?

No... But romance can survive quite nicely without sex.

Not workable. I am honest in my desire for sex. I could not have lasted more than a few months before getting utterly frustrated and depressed because the feeling of "If I don't get her I won't get anybody" would still have been there.

Okay. But not everyone is the same, in this respect.

The real solution to my dillema would have been to fall in love with her, have sex, and always keep in mind that I am very young and that it is more than possible to fall in love again. So when the problems began, we could have ended and cherrished our experiences rather than floundering in them for as long as we did, or never having them as you are in some ways suggesting.

While this might resolve the problems you have, it might leave you with other problems. I have known people who were always a little disappointed because they weren't their spouse's first sexual relationship, and I have known people who, for thirty years or more, would have given nearly anything to be able to retroactively change their minds about what they did when they were younger. You may not ever end up there - but you might.

It's not wrong it's just dangerous and - frankly - unrealistic. Most guys want sex. If she's going to get in a relationship she is going to constantly be forcing this tension where the male is feeling unsatasfied by it. Not a smart idea.

That rather depends. Not all men feel the same way about these things. Sex drive varies from person to person. To a certain extent, she's filtering for men who will get along with her; for her, sex is not that big a priority, so it's important that she find a man who isn't too desperate for it, or they'll be incompatible.

A more elloquent expression of time spent too long with one person I've never heard. Sex does indeed become so mundane when you spend years with the one person. Sex with new people never does.

YMMV. I felt this way when we first got together. I mean, yeah, sex is great... But my wife's a novelist, and her D&D games are incredible.

But hey, it works for you and that's cool, but it's because it does not work for most people that so many affairs are had.

At least partially. There's other issues involved, too. It's a very complicated topic, to say the least.

Different assumptions. For some strange reason you seem to think it's normal that most people don't think about sex very much or that it isn't a big deal, so why not wait? I think that's crazy talk.

No... What I think is that, if you are a person who can be happy with that, you shouldn't be being pressured to "be normal" and have sex when you don't feel you're ready.

I'm not arguing that your decisions are bad ones; they may be, but only time will tell. What I'm arguing is that my friend who decided she's not going to have sex until she gets married is not stupid, or irrational; just different. She may be abnormal. So what? Lots of people are abnormal one way or another.

Basically, I'm arguing that generalizing from your experience or emotional needs is no saner than generalizing from anyone else's. There's a lot of room for individual variance in these matters.

 

[The Bellman]

40-year old poontang leaves a lot to be desired. I prefer twenty-something poontang. Now, if you prefer 40+ poontang, have at it, I'll even point a few your direction, if you want.

I was more generally pointing to the marriage arrangement for a sexual relationship. Then, there is definately a very small chance of something bad happening. The more cars you bounce into, the more likely it is you'll die.

The point wasn't whether or not 20 year olds are more attractive than 40 year olds. Millions of years of evolution have convinced us both to answer yes. The issue is whether 40 year olds are/can be attractive, including their "nether regions". You said they could not; I disagree.

At any rate, justaman's point is well made. Whereas sex with one partner does tend to become boring, sex with new partners NEVER does (note that this applies only to males). It's a well known phenomenon, tested in a number of different animal species (including ours). It's known as the Coolidge Effect, from a supposedly true story. President Coolidge and his wife were touring a chicken farm, and they came upon a rooster copulating with a hen. Mrs Coolidge asked how often the rooster "performed", and was advised by the farmer that the rooster copulated dozens of times a day. Mrs Coolidge smiled and said "Please tell that to the President." When he was told, Coolidge nodded, and asked "The same hen every time?" "Oh, no, Mr President," he was answered. "A different hen each time." Coolidge nodded. "Please tell Mrs Coolidge that," he said.

 

[Riddick]

The point wasn't whether or not 20 year olds are more attractive than 40 year olds. Millions of years of evolution have convinced us both to answer yes. The issue is whether 40 year olds are/can be attractive, including their "nether regions". You said they could not; I disagree.

At any rate, justaman's point is well made. Whereas sex with one partner does tend to become boring, sex with new partners NEVER does (note that this applies only to males). It's a well known phenomenon, tested in a number of different animal species (including ours). It's known as the Coolidge Effect, from a supposedly true story. President Coolidge and his wife were touring a chicken farm, and they came upon a rooster copulating with a hen. Mrs Coolidge asked how often the rooster "performed", and was advised by the farmer that the rooster copulated dozens of times a day. Mrs Coolidge smiled and said "Please tell that to the President." When he was told, Coolidge nodded, and asked "The same hen every time?" "Oh, no, Mr President," he was answered. "A different hen each time." Coolidge nodded. "Please tell Mrs Coolidge that," he said.

The point is whatever I choose to make it. Now, you like 40yr old poontang, that's your problem. That's the point, in this case.

 

[The Bellman]

The point is whatever I choose to make it. Now, you like 40yr old poontang, that's your problem. That's the point, in this case.

No, the point is what was being discussed, not what you decide arbitrarily it is. The point is that you do not think 40 year olds are/can be attractive; I disagree.

 

[seebs]

If I still think my wife is hot in 8 years, will I get an apology?

 

[radorth]

The Silver Ring Thing is being publicised as a health/safety movement, but really it seems to me as being run primarily by a Christian agenda. If you haven't heard of it, it is a program whereby teens specifically go to a seminar/trainnig session/whatever and learn about the evils of pre-marital sex, getting scared with all types of STD statistics (which, it must be said, are generally quite accurate and well sourced). At the end of the seminar, they receive a silver ring that they wear on their wedding finger and sign a vow of absitenence until they are married.

There may be some pros for this. Possibly. But to me, it just seems to be advocating sexual repression. It is my opinion that sexual immaturity is on of the biggest reasons why so many first-time marriages fail. It's like trying to compete in the olympics without ever having trained and expecting not to lose.

I may be in the minority though...

Good Lord, a new theory that marriages fail for lack of sexual experience and training. I don't suppose emotional immaturity, or being too needy yourself to love anyone else, financial pressures or other things would have anything to do with it. Here's a better argument for you. They get married too young due to sexual pressure and are not ready emotionally or financially to be good spouses. This I will admit is often the case with Christians.

I can assure you friend that millions of Christians have no problem at all figuring out what to do even if they never have had intercourse. Christians like it too.

Rad

 

[The Bellman]

Good Lord, a new theory that marriages fail for lack of sexual experience and training. I don't suppose emotional immaturity, or being too needy yourself to love anyone else, financial pressures or other things would have anything to do with it. Here's a better argument for you. They get married too young due to sexual pressure and are not ready emotionally or financially to be good spouses. This I will admit is often the case with Christians.

It's hardly a "new theory". Sexual incompatibility is a terrible thing for a couple to go through. I've no doubt it's been the reason for many marriage failures. I know, personally, of at least two. And acknowledging sexual incompatibility as a possible reason for marriage difficulties/failures does not mean that maturity, financial pressures and so forth aren't also responsible. I believe the entire point is that without sexual experience, sexual incompatibility is more likely to occur.

I can assure you friend that millions of Christians have no problem at all figuring out what to do even if they never have had intercourse. Christians like it too.

Nobody doubts this. However, many people who have never had intercourse turn out to be lousy lovers - inconsiderate or with needs incompatible with their partner. I'd sure rather find out that BEFORE I married someone.

 

[seebs]

I am having a hard time with this theory that sexual experience prevents sexual incompatibility. If, indeed, having slept with five other people would make me more compatible, then it's obviously a learning thing, not a compatibility thing. If the idea is to sleep around until I find someone "compatible", that seems a bit weird.

Can someone give me examples other than, say, weird allergies or something, of how two people who are attracted enough to each other to really want to be involved could be "incompatible"? If you can't post in the open fora, feel free to PM me.

I agree that many people are inconsiderate lovers... But that's something you can learn, and it isn't unique to people who have never had much sex. I've known people with >50 sex partners who were pretty inconsiderate lovers. Needs incompatible? Seems a bit vague. Incompatible fetishes? You don't have to indulge every fetish you have to be happy.