This *shouldn't* be controversial in Christianity

[mkgal1]

Another way that Jesus put a general timeframe to the destruction of the Temple:

Matthew 16:28 - Truly I say to you, there are some of those standing here who shall not taste death until they have seen the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."​

 

[Ricky M]

The controversy is new to me. I also can't imagine why it should be anything to fuss about. Still, Christians have a way of confecting disputes over non-issues.

The problem is that people have become so far polarized that they cannot allow for anything to appose their beliefs, much less share in them. One side says Jesus' prophesy was about the Jews in 70 AD, another side says those prophesies were about a time to come in the future. The problem is in believing those two views are mutually exclusive. God offered the Messiah to the Jews, they rejected Him, and suffered their tribulation in 70 AD. God then offered the Christ to the world, the world is denying Him, and will suffer it's tribulation in the days to come.

God's word is eternal and reverberates thru time. One manifestation does NOT render it moot.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Where did Jesus set a date for 70AD events?

From a Facebook post of mine.


Are you aware that Jesus told many of the people he was speaking to, including the apostle John, that they would live long enough to see the coming of the Lord? Here Matthew, Mark and Luke all record the same scene when Jesus tells a group of his disciples that some of them will live long enough to see his coming.
Matthew16: 27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28: TRULY I SAY TO YOU. THERE ARE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM.
Mark 8:38 Whoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. 9:1 And he said to them. TRULY i SAY TO YOU. THERE BE SOME OF THEM THAT STAND HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY HAVE SEEN THE KINGDOM OF GOD COME WITH POWER.
Luke 9:26 For whoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. 27 BUT I TELL YOU OF A TRUTH. THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Here Jesus tells John that he will live long enough to see his coming but tells Peter he will not.
John 21:18. (Jesus speaking to Peter) Truly, Truly, I say to you, When you were young, you dressed yourself, and walked where ever you desired: but when your old, you will stretch forth your hands, and another will dress you, and carry you where you do not want. 19. This he spoke, signifying by what death he (Peter) should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he said to him, Follow me. 20. Then Peter, turning around, seeing the disciple whom Jesus loved (John) following...... 21. Peter seeing him said to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22. Jesus answers him, IF I WILL THAT HE REMAIN TILL I COME, what is that to you? Follow me. 23. Then this saying abroad went out among the brothers, that this disciple (John) should not die: yet Jesus did not say to him, He shall not die; BUT IF I WILL THAT HE REMAIN TILL I COME, what is that to you?

Then Jesus tells the High Priest and the other religious leaders of Israel that some of them would live long enough to see his coming.
Mark 14:61 ...Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62. And Jesus said, I am: AND YOU WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER AND COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.

Then of course there is Jesus's prophecy about the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem. It is very important to note that the only place in his whole prophecy that he used the emphasis "truly truly I say to you;" to command their attention, and ours, was concerning when this prophecy would come to pass.
Matthew 24:32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is close: 33. So likewise, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34, IN TRUTH IS SAY TO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED. 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36. But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mark 13:28. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near: 29. So in like manner, when you shall see these things come to pass, know that it is close, even at the doors. 30. IN TRUTH I SAY TO YOU, THAT THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE DONE. 31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32. But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Luke 21:29. And he spoke to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30. When they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now close at hand. 31. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know that the kingdom of God is close at hand. 32. IN TRUTH I SAY TO YOU. THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS AWAY, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. 33. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This is all in exact accordance with Daniels prophecy that when the messiah comes the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed. In fact the destruction of the temple and the city was one of the major signs that Jesus was indeed the messiah. Just like his death and resurrection were.
Daniel chapter 9 verses 25-27. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolation's are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So why do so many Christians and pastors not pay any attention to all these scriptures that say when Jesus would come and instead place it in our future? Mostly because they have no incentive to notice them. They accepted a teaching called the "second coming" as gospel long before they became familiar enough with the scripture to observe anything contrary to it. In the Greek, the phrase second coming doesn't even occur one time in the entire New Testament. The acceptance of these pop culture end time teachings has quite naturally caused a spiritual and intellectual laziness around the subject of the coming of the Lord. Yet the scripture is replete with these great days of judgment where the Lord literally and physically came to earth to oversee great days of judgment or calamity. This isn't the only one the New Testament prophesied either. There are a dozen chapters of end time prophecy about the great judgments of the end of the age of the four Gentile empires in the OT and book of Revelation.

Every single sentence of Jesus's prophecy in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 came to pass in the first century. You'll not find a more complete account in a more easy to read format like the article linked below. Please take the time to read it. There is extremely good news about our future, not apocalyptic news.
The End Of An Age

 

[mkgal1]

This is all in exact accordance with Daniels prophecy that when the messiah comes the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed. In fact the destruction of the temple and the city was one of the major signs that Jesus was indeed the messiah. Just like his death and resurrection were.

That's why it surprises me that this isn't standard teaching. I'm almost 60 years old and was raised in the church, and have only recently learned this.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

One would think it would be based on reproductive cycles, like from the time you are born until the time your offspring would normally reprocreate.

My Father had a son at 70. I raised him.

Interesting idea.


generation noun

gen·er·a·tion | \ ˌje-nə-ˈrā-shən \
Definition of generation
1a: a body of living beings constituting a single step in the line of descent from an ancestor
b: a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously
the younger generation
c: a group of individuals having contemporaneously a status (such as that of students in a school) which each one holds only for a limited period
d: a type or class of objects usually developed from an earlier type
first of the … new generation of powerful supersonic fighters
— Kenneth Koyen
2a: the action or process of producing offspring : PROCREATION
b: the process of coming or bringing into being
generation of income
c: origination by a generating process : PRODUCTION
especially : formation of a geometric figure by motion of another
3: the average span of time between the birth of parents and that of their offspring

My Mother had me when she was 16. I am guessing below may be part of number 3 above.

Numbers 14:29 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
29 You will die in this desert. Every person who is 20 years old or older and was counted as one of my people will die. You complained against me.

 

[mkgal1]

Mark 13:4 - Tell us when these things will be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be accomplished?"

Luke 21;7 - Tell us when these things will be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be accomplished?"

Luke 21:20-22 -
The Destruction of Jerusalem
(Matthew 24:15-25; Mark 13:14-23)

20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Quoting from linked article : This is what is known as the “flight to Pella” (Mark 13:14-16; Matt 24:16-18; Luke 21:21).

Pella was about 75 miles north of Jerusalem, which, according to Google Maps, would take you 26 hours to walk! That may seem a long way to go, but this is exactly what the Jerusalem Church did as they heeded the warnings from Jesus, and also from an angelic encounter telling them where to flee to!

The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…"

Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

For when the city was about to be taken and destroyed by the Romans, it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned in Transjordania. And this city is said to be of the Decapolis."

Epiphanius, On Weights and Measures 15

Read more at: https://www.thatancientfaith.uk/hom...log_copypaste&utm_campaign=blog_social_sharer

 

[Steve97]

The controversy is new to me. I also can't imagine why it should be anything to fuss about. Still, Christians have a way of confecting disputes over non-issues.

You are SO RIGHT! We Christians excel at creating church splitting issues.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Mark 13:4 - Tell us when these things will be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be accomplished?"

Luke 21;7 - Tell us when these things will be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be accomplished?"

Luke 21:20-22 -
The Destruction of Jerusalem
(Matthew 24:15-25; Mark 13:14-23)

20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Quoting from linked article : This is what is known as the “flight to Pella” (Mark 13:14-16; Matt 24:16-18; Luke 21:21).

Pella was about 75 miles north of Jerusalem, which, according to Google Maps, would take you 26 hours to walk! That may seem a long way to go, but this is exactly what the Jerusalem Church did as they heeded the warnings from Jesus, and also from an angelic encounter telling them where to flee to!

The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…"

Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

For when the city was about to be taken and destroyed by the Romans, it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned in Transjordania. And this city is said to be of the Decapolis."

Epiphanius, On Weights and Measures 15

Read more at: https://www.thatancientfaith.uk/hom...log_copypaste&utm_campaign=blog_social_sharer

I just read the complete article, that is cool. Thanks for the information.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

You are SO RIGHT! We Christians excel at creating church splitting issues.

For most Christians this is not a big deal at all. Those that tends to make a big problem of it are the Dispensationalists. And, they don't agree on much among themselves --- Pretrib, post trib and midtrib.

"
Approaches to Revelation:

Judgements: Revelation Ch 1 - 19

• Idealism: the book of Revelation was not designed as a historical document or future prophecy, but instead teaches timeless truths about good and evil, God and Satan, etc., by way of metaphor, allegory, and/or story.
• Futurism: Historic or covenantal futurism, as opposed to Dispensational Futurism or Dispensational premillennialism: the book of Revelation is limited to a specific future period—the tribulation.
• Historicism (See the eschatology of Martin Luther, John Calvin, Joseph Mede, Isaac Newton, John Gill, Matthew Henry, E. B. Elliott, Henry Grattan Guinness, and Charles Haddon Spurgeon; for contemporary cases see especially Ian Paisley and Seventh-day Adventist eschatology): the book of Revelation portrays the span of church history, from the 1st century to the return of Christ: events in Revelation are symbolically interpreted to portray literal events in the life of the Church.
• Preterism: the book of Revelation was prophecy at the time, but all or most of it has already been fulfilled in the very early days of the Church; esp. Centering on the destruction of the Temple and the Jewish nation in AD 70. Differences:
  • Full Preterism: All of Christian prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century, including the return of Christ and the resurrection of believers. The resurrection is interpreted to mean receiving a spiritual body after death, with no promise of a physical resurrection for any besides Christ.
  • Partial Preterism: Most of prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century, except Christ's return then was as a judge of Israel, but not his final literal coming. He is still to return and literally raise the believing dead.

Millennium: Revelation Ch 20

• Amillennialism
• Postmillennialism (both reconstructionist and revivalist forms)
• Historic Premillennialism, cf. George Eldon Ladd

Kingdom-Dominion theology[edit]
Main article: Kingdom theology
Hermeneutics: Similar to the covenantal system, but emphasizes the Kingdom of God rather than the three covenants. Exemplified in works such as Graeme Goldsworthy's Gospel and Kingdom. The Old Testament is interpreted using typology and the grammatico-historical method. Revelation is read according to the conventions of the apocalyptic genre."

Christian eschatological views - Wikipedia
Christian eschatology - Wikipedia
Christian eschatological views - Wikipedia

 

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[nolidad]

Where did Jesus set a date for 70AD events?

LUKE 21:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[Adamina]

I came across this sermon of Andy Stanley's about Jesus' claim that "something greater than the Temple" had come to the world and that the Temple would, in fact, be destroyed (and just how shocking those claims were).

The fact that Jesus predicted this, that it DID happen (in the timeframe He predicted it) AND that it's verifiable by unbiased historic records shouldn't be controversial, but instead, standard Christian teaching. But it's not.
This is only about 30 minutes long - and I believe it's well worth the time.

Good vid expounding on Matt 12:6.

YLT)
Matthew 12:
5 'Or did ye not read in the Law, that on the sabbaths the priests in the temple do profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 and I say to you, that a greater than the temple is here

Jesus refers to Himself as the sanctuary in this verse, which must have also baffled the Jews He was talking to:

YLT) John 2:19
Jesus answered and said to them, 'Destroy this sanctuary and in three days I will raise it up.'

A few commentaries on Matt 12:6

Matthew 12:6 Commentaries: "But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(6) In this place is one greater than the temple.--Better, Here is something greater than the Temple. The Greek adjective is neuter in the better MSS., and the word "here" we may think of as accompanied (like the "destroy this temple" of John 2:19) by a gesture which interpreted the words. The passage thus referred to furnishes obviously the true explanation of our Lord's assertion of His greatness here, and spoken, as it probably was, to scribes from Jerusalem, may have been intended to remind them of it. The body of the Son of Man was the truest, highest temple of God, and the disciples who ministered to Him were entitled to at least the same privilege as the priests in the Temple at Jerusalem. The range of the words is, however, wider than this their first and highest application. We are taught to think of the bodies of other sons of men as being also, in their measure, temples of God (1Corinthians 6:19), and so there follows the conclusion that all works of love done for the bodies or the souls of men as little interfere with the holiness of a day of rest as did the ministrations of the priests as they laboured to weariness in the ritual of the Temple. Inasmuch as the disciples were not at the time engaged in any direct service to their Master, but were simply satisfying the cravings of their own hunger, their act, strictly speaking, came under the general rather than the special application of the words. Man, as such, to those who take a true measure of his worth, is greater than any material temple.

Pulpit Commentary

Verse 6 - Matthew only. But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple (τοῦ ἱεροῦ μειζόν ἐστιν ῶδε); "Gr. a greater thing" (Revised Version margin). A similarly difficult neuter is found in vers. 41, 45. If the neuter be insisted upon, we must understand Christ to refer to his cause, the work in which the disciples were engaged. This was greater than the temple; lunch more, therefore, was it greater than the sabbath. Probably, however, our Lord is referring to himself, to his own Person and character, but uses the neuter, either as forming a more decided contrast to ἱερόν, or as being more weighty than the masculine (cf. ch. 11:9, note). Also it was less defined and more mysterious. He could not reveal to them the secret of his presence. Observe the use, even at this stage in his ministry, of words implying the decadence of the temple service (cf. John 4:21; Acts 6:14). In this place; here (Revised Version), as in vers. 41, 42.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

But I say unto you,.... Who Christ knew would be ready to object, as above, and therefore prevents them, by saying, that in this place is one greater than the temple; meaning himself, who was the Lord and Proprietor of the temple, and in his human nature the antitype of it; see John 2:19 and was infinitely more sacred than that. Some copies read "something greater"; referring either to the human nature of Christ, in which the Godhead dwells bodily, and so infinitely greater than the temple; or to the health of his disciples, which was in danger, through hunger: or to the ministry of the apostles, which, by satisfying nature, they were more capable of performing; either of which was of more moment than the sacrifices and service of the temple. Christ's argument is, that if the temple, and the service of it, excused the priests from blame, in doing things in it on the sabbath day, which otherwise might not be done; then much more might his presence, who was greater than the temple, excuse his disciples from blame in this action of rubbing and eating the ears of corn; which was done to satisfy hunger, and to render them the more capable of performing their ministerial function; and which was of more importance than the service of the priests.

===========================
A few commentaries on John 2:19

John 2:19 Commentaries: Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

19. Destroy this temple]
It is S. Matthew (Matthew 26:61) and S. Mark (Mark 14:58, see notes) who tell us that this saying was twisted into a charge against Christ, but they do not record the saying. S. John, who does record the saying, does not mention the charge. Such coincidence can scarcely be designed, and is therefore evidence of the truth of both statements. See on John 18:11.

The word used in these three verses for ‘temple’ means the central sacred building (naos), whereas that used in John 2:14 means the whole sacred enclosure (hieron). The latter is never used figuratively.