This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

ToBeLoved · Nov 21, 2015

ZacharyB said:
So, I raise the question about "believe" for everyone to ponder ...
Are we talking about:
1) believing for a while intellectually?
2) believing for a while in the heart (after receiving the Holy Spirit)?
2) believing for a while in the heart (after receiving the Holy Spirit)
enough to live righteously, e.g. ...
-- obeying Jesus' commandments
-- co-operating to be fully sanctified unto holiness

If someone has the Holy Spirit they are saved. Period.

Their is no bar that can be set against being indwelled by God Himself. Nothing.

-57 · Nov 21, 2015

ZacharyB said:
So, I raise the question about "believe" for everyone to ponder ...
Are we talking about:
1) believing for a while intellectually?
2) believing for a while in the heart (after receiving the Holy Spirit)?
2) believing for a while in the heart (after receiving the Holy Spirit)
enough to live righteously? For example:
-- obeying Jesus' commandments
-- co-operating to be fully sanctified unto holiness

I would have to go with #1 only from your list. Once you have received the Holy Spirit you are saved...and no one can snatch you out of the Fathers hand.

zippy2 · Nov 21, 2015

I will say what I often say in these kinds of discussions:

One of the saddest things one can ever hear is a little old lady, frail and on her death bed, whisper: 'I just hope I DID ENOUGH'.

It is NOT what she did (or we do) that matters. It is what Jesus did. And then He said, IT IS FINISHED.

Thankfully I got to explain that to her before she died.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him shall never die.
(not a direct quote, but what I said to her)

-57 · Nov 21, 2015

ZacharyB said:
So, I raise the question about "believe" for everyone to ponder ...
Are we talking about:
(1) believing for a while intellectually?
(2) believing for a while in the heart (after receiving the Holy Spirit)?
(3) believing for a while in the heart (after receiving the Holy Spirit)
enough to live righteously? For example:
-- obeying Jesus' commandments
-- co-operating to be fully sanctified unto holiness

Because of all of the many warnings about
the dire consequences of continual sinning ...
I am convinced that TRUE SAVING BELIEF refers to (3).

I don't think one can believe until they are born from above...regenerated....have received the Holy Spirit.

Jahrooshshalom · Nov 21, 2015

ZacharyB said:
Yes, I agree, easy grace and OSAS certainly are destructive heresies!
And they must be incredibly destructive indeed (worse than sins) …
… because I don’t see above where any repentance is even possible.

Then you should not attempt to declare your lack of knowledge puts an end to any discussion concerning Soterology or any Christian doctrine at all.
Maybe you should ask yourself why you work to prove Jesus death on the cross failed.

ZacharyB · Nov 21, 2015

Just happened to have this in front of me ...

JOHN 15:
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me,
and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you,
you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified,
that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

We're NOT abiding in Jesus, if we're habitually sinning!
Another thing here: to receive salvation it is necessary to be a disciple!
The gospels teach: to be a disciple of Jesus requires a lot of obedience, etc.

-57 · Nov 21, 2015

ZacharyB said:
We're NOT abiding in Jesus, if we're habitually sinning!
Another thing here: to receive salvation it is necessary to be a disciple!
The gospels teach: to be a disciple of Jesus requires a lot of obedience, etc.

If one is habitually sinning...more than likely they never had a saving relationship with Jesus.
Secondly, you're not a "true" disciple until you are saved.
and,
A disciple should be obedient to Jesus.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 21, 2015

ZacharyB said:
This is for others, that they might not be led astray by people like you …

lol. It's the insecurity crowd who has been led astray.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 21, 2015

-57 said:
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

.....so, just who is going to snatch a believer out of the Fathers hand?

Well, the insecurity crowd thinks any believer can.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 21, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
I will just add in passing that I think that the title of this thread, particularly the phrase 'Easy Grace' is disrespectful to our Savior. There was nothing easy about what our Savior did for us.

That is my opinion and I hate to see that phrase.

As well, the Bible never speaks of "easy grace" nor "easy believism". Those are just made up perjorative words because those who oppose FREE GRACE don't have a Biblical refutation for it.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 21, 2015

-57 said:
"Nobody, except maybe yourself.".....You know, you're not allowed to add stuff to the bible. Where does the bible teach you can snatch yourself out of Gods hand? A chapter and verse would be nice.

Please don't hold your breath on that request. They don't have any, but that hasn't stopped false doctrine from spreading.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 21, 2015

JLB777 said:
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

If you can't see, then ask the Lord for eye salve, that you may see the truth.
JLB

How does this passage refute and contradict any of the security passages? Of which they are many!

So, instead of conflicting with any of the security passages, the ONLY understanding is that it isn't speaking of loss of salvation.

The "end is worse" isn't the eternal end, as you'd like it to be, but simply after they have turned from the holy commandments. iow, the passage is speaking of God's severe hand of discipline, just as Heb 12:5 does.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 21, 2015

ZacharyB said:
Several of the NT Scriptures tell us to prepare accordingly, because
Jesus is coming back for a church which is
holy and perfect, without spot or blemish, etc.
But, does this apply to believers during the past 2000 years?
Until this moment, I thought NO.
But, perhaps it refers to the resurrection?

We are to prepare for REWARD. Listen to what Jesus said about His return:
Rev 22:12 - “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done."

v.14 tells us what the reward includes.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 21, 2015

-57 said:
I don't think one can believe until they are born from above...regenerated....have received the Holy Spirit.

Could you provide some Scripture that indicates that one must be regenerated either before they believe or in order to believe (no real difference)?

FreeGrace2 · Nov 21, 2015

ZacharyB said:
Another thing here: to receive salvation it is necessary to be a disciple!

Please cite a verse that teaches this. This is a challenge.

The gospels teach: to be a disciple of Jesus requires a lot of obedience, etc.

True, but please show where one must be a disciple in order to receive salvation. I can show many verses that plainly tell us that we receive salvation and eternal life on the basis of faith, apart from any other condition.

ZacharyB · Nov 21, 2015

-57 said:
If one is habitually sinning...
more than likely they never had a saving relationship with Jesus.
Secondly, you're not a "true" disciple until you are saved.
and, A disciple should be obedient to Jesus.

Aren't thou up to snuff on the condition of the N. A. churches?
It is DEPLORABLE!
Which is why I'm here ... to warn them.

The sheep are NOT being taught about the ramifications of sinning!
The terms "easy grace", "greasy grace", etc. just refer to
the false teaching that believers can get to heaven,
regardless if they are habitual sinners, or not.

-57 · Nov 21, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
Could you provide some Scripture that indicates that one must be regenerated either before they believe or in order to believe (no real difference)?

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

-57 · Nov 21, 2015

ZacharyB said:
Aren't thou up to snuff on the condition of the N. A. churches?
It is DEPLORABLE!
Which is why I'm here ... to warn them.

The sheep are NOT being taught about the ramifications of sinning!
The terms "easy grace", "greasy grace", etc. just refer to
the false teaching that believers can get to heaven,
regardless if they are habitual sinners, or not.

If you are a true believer....and fall into sin you are still saved. BUT, the bible tells of the bema seat judgement of Christ.

1st Cor 3:15 tells us this.....If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

...That individual will suffer loss. They're saved....using todays idiom...by the skin of their teeth.

sdowney717 · Nov 21, 2015

-57 said:
If you are a true believer....and fall into sin you are still saved. BUT, the bible tells of the bema seat judgement of Christ.

1st Cor 3:15 tells us this.....If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

...That individual will suffer loss. They're saved....using todays idiom...by the skin of their teeth.

That is right, the spirit is saved and could lose all rewards, but saved they still are.
Those that lost all rewards, still believed in Christ, so they remain saved based on what Christ did for them making them alive who were dead in trespasses. Ephesians 2
Those that are apostates, don't believe in Christ. Jude gives ample descriptions and so does Peter about false workers.
We have a clear word about the sheep of Christ, they hear His voice, they follow Him, they are saved and will never perish, so then it is eternal life for them. Anyone who says contrary to the sound words of Christ is as Paul says they know nothing and are puffed up.

Paul gives practical advice here of what to do. they have corrupt minds, destitute of the truth, useless wranglings, see nothing you can say will get through to them. Such persons God must grant a repentance or they are doomed, they are captured by Satan to do his will. Thier ears are stopped up and they can not hear so then harken and believe spiritual truths.

1 Timothy 6
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 21, 2015

I said this:
"Could you provide some Scripture that indicates that one must be regenerated either before they believe or in order to believe (no real difference)?"

-57 said:
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

This doesn't support the claim that one must be regenerated before they believe. Just look at v.5 and see that to "see" is equated with to "enter".

iow, in order to see the kingdom, one must enter the kingdom.

Think of the kingdom as a large room. Unless one enters the room, they cannot see the room. They have to enter the room in order to see the room.

Here is the Scripture that shows that faith precedes regeneration:

Eph 2:5 - even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

The parenthesis defines what "made us alive" means. To be "made alive", which is another phrase for being born again or regenerated, means to be saved.

iow, those who are made alive are saved. Or, those who are saved have been made alive.

Now consider v.8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

So, we "have been saved" THROUGH faith. iow, faith precedes salvation, or Paul's statement is screwed up. We can't be saved through faith if we are saved before we believe.

We are saved because we believe. Therefore, faith precedes regeneration.

This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

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