If you want to discuss scripture, list the scripture in your post so I can read it along with your comments. Makes it a lot easier to follow.
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If you want to discuss scripture, list the scripture in your post so I can read it along with your comments. Makes it a lot easier to follow.Please read verses 11 and following: clearly Paul is assuring Gentiles that salvation (and other benefits) are not strictly a Jewish thing.
We need to let Paul say what he wants to say. And clearly (from verse 11 and following) the problem here is not a belief that "good works save" but rather the belief that Jews and Jews only are the beneficiaries to the exclusion of Gentiles.
Are you going to tell me that in verses 11 and following the issue is not the matter of whether Gentiles, too, are included in God's family as well as Jews?
The issue of "good works" is nowhere in sight in verses 11 and following.
Why didn't Paul never bother to warn the unfaithful then?I've already explained that it does no harm whatsoever to remind even the faithful
of their responsibilities, etc. ... in an effort to ensure their CONTINUED faithfulness!
What is your claim about 'everything must be continued' taught in Scripture? And what is it "a must" FOR?News Flash ... everything must be continued ... nothing is a one-time deal.
Endurance in the faith (and all that being faithful entails) is a must.
It is confusing, until the questions are answered.This is strictly "your reasonable service" (Romans 12:1).
Hope this helps someone!
I don't see how this answers my question.Reminding the faithful of all of their reasonable spiritual services (Romans 12:1)
is always an excellent way to spend one's time!
Exactly !!What is this idea that God measures out grace anyway? Is there a better salvation in comparison to the ultimate salvation?
I still do not understand what more can one person get from God's grace that another person cannot get.
lolWhat is your claim about 'everything must be continued' taught in Scripture?
And what is it "a must" FOR?
It is confusing, until the questions are answered.
No sense asking...they will more than likely refer to the same verses they have posted before. And even though they have been shown to in error...not by your words or my words, but the words of the Bible, they will not accept it. God's grace gave us a Savior and a path to salvation through the shedding of Christ's blood for ever person that is in this world. The Bible teaches that...not me, not you, but the Bible. Proponents of any sort of "election" or "ability" or anything like that continue to ignore the verses that explain that Christ died to save the world. When asked to rectify their doctrine with these simple verses like John 3:16 they can't, or won't.Why didn't Paul never bother to warn the unfaithful then?
What is your claim about 'everything must be continued' taught in Scripture? And what is it "a must" FOR?
It is confusing, until the questions are answered.
No sense asking...they will more than likely refer to the same verses they have posted before. And even though they have been shown to in error...not by your words or my words, but the words of the Bible, they will not accept it. God's grace gave us a Savior and a path to salvation through the shedding of Christ's blood for ever person that is in this world. The Bible teaches that...not me, not you, but the Bible. Proponents of any sort of "election" or "ability" or anything like that continue to ignore the verses that explain that Christ died to save the world. When asked to rectify their doctrine with these simple verses like John 3:16 they can't, or won't.
And when asked how much sin does it take to lose salvation...the answer is "the Spirit knows"..you get the same when you ask how much good does a person have to do in order to get salvation back... But yet the Bible once again...not me...not you...but the Bible clearly tells us that it was written so that we may know we have eternal life...so it is for us to know that we have Eternal Life, not just the Holy Spirit. So if we can't know, then the doctrine is unbiblical and should be cast aside. And if we get a list from someone (don't hold your breath) then ultimately have to cast that aside as well...for then we have a list of works to get our salvation and we all know that is not Biblical. And if they say it is different for each one...there is no Biblical basis for that either. Plus it leads to boasting as one would seem to have to do more than the other. So no matter how it gets sliced...it is unbiblical and should be cast aside.
Why? To what purpose?
Who is God displaying His mercy too?
I am not seeing the part where you said that it CLEARLY is for the believing ones that Christ dies. I do not think that the scripture you shared shows that clearly at all.John 3:16 is quite clear that whomsoever believes will not perish but have everlasting life.
Clearly though you deny that there is a reason for the WHY that whomsoever believes, which is what all the biblical teaching of election by grace is about,
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
CLEARLY it is for the believing ones that Christ dies, hence Christ dies not for the unbelieving ones but for those that believe.
So that those who believe will not perish but have everlasting life.
God does not say
15 that whoever does not believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever does not believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
But that is what you believe is it not?
I am living proof that your observations here are not based on fact.I think the situation is more troubling. In a decade of participating in these boards, I have never, repeat never, seen anyone change their position on any matter of major doctrine. ....................................The proof is in the pudding - no one on these boards ever their minds.
Usually when we find some piece of evidence by science or scholars to be true it is because we see in ourself whatever it is that they are saying.I think the situation is more troubling. In a decade of participating in these boards, I have never, repeat never, seen anyone change their position on any matter of major doctrine. This cannot be right - if there are indeed clear Biblical truths as we all seem to claim (of course, in defending our position), lots of people should indeed be changing their minds as they realize they are mistaken about something.
But this never happens.
I have heard psychologists recently report that human beings find it incredibly hard to be objective. We cling so tightly to our presently held beliefs that we lose all ability to rationally consider evidence that challenges our views. Or we invent wildly irrational explanations to force-fit a challenging text into our present belief system. Look at what people do to Romans 2:6-7 - which clearly states good works do matter unto salvation. You should see the backflips people do to effectively rework this text to mean something other than what it clearly says.
The proof is in the pudding - no one on these boards ever their minds.
Hopefully just this one time - I'll go against my better instincts here and comment on this strictly for the benefit of those reading along.I know Marvin won't respond to this, but a point needs to be made about 1 Cor 2:14 and what the natural man cannot understand. It cannot be the gospel. Why not? Because of all the evidence of unbelievers who do understand and reject the gospel. I've read many writers of current news-type magazines (Time, Life, etc) who can clearly describe the Biblical way to be saved, all the while rejecting the truth of it. That alone proves that 1 Cor 2:14 isn't about understanding the gospel unless one has been regenerated.
Once again, no one has any excuse. Rom 1:20
This is like the concept of wind and natural human birth - as Jesus clearly explained to us.Another subject with which Marvin and I are at odds. I fully agree and embrace his final sentence above about the working of the Holy Spirit, which is by grace, prior to saving faith being exercised. What I continue to disagree with him about is this working equals regeneration.
I have never said that a person cannot kick against the goads.The working of the Holy Spirit is His ministry of conviction, as noted in John 16:8,9. And we know that people can resist the Holy Spirit, as noted in Acts 7:51.
I haven't found any Scripture that indicates that God measures out grace.
I have never said otherwise.Scripture is real clear about Christ dying for everyone.
I am not seeing the part where you said that it CLEARLY is for the believing ones that Christ dies. I do not think that the scripture you shared shows that clearly at all.
'Christ paid the blood sacrifice offering required for atonement of sins. ' for BELIEVERS'No Downey it is not what I believe. I believe what the Bible says.
God loved THE WORLD. (vs 16)
Christ came to save THE WORLD (vs 17)
Under election or any form of it...Christ came to condemn the world except those selected.
The Whosoever is not conditional...it is whosoever is in the world that believes.
And what do they get if they believe? eternal life...eternal life is the one thing that has a condition on receiving it...whosoever believes.
See it is not Christs death that saves us. Christ's death is God's grace. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Romans 3 says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" That is clear...ALL. It goes on "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith" Sounds a bit like Ephesians don't it? But in the same sentence we have all that have sinned and Christ's blood being the propitiation of sins...the payment for the wages of sin.
Christ paid the blood sacrifice offering required for atonement of sins. He did it for the world as the Bible says, not for select people in the world, but the world. So no one has to make a sacrifice any more. This does not mean that all are saved. Salvation comes through faith...you have to believe in order to receive that salvation.
So let me ask you this...someone who is not saved today. Tomorrow if he becomes a believer does he have to make a blood sacrifice all over again?'Christ paid the blood sacrifice offering required for atonement of sins. ' for BELIEVERS'
No it's not...what does the verse say? Does it say "beleivers", no it says Christ came not to condemn the world, but to save the world. Christ's first coming was for the propitiation of sins...to be the final and perfect sacrifice.The first time God comes in Christ not to condemn but to save who?, but this is only for believers.
Then by your own statemenst you and I are condemned. For we were not present when Christ died and was resurrected. We were once unbelievers, condemned. But I am sure you will agree we were not finalized.Unbelievers are already condemned because they have not believed, condemned already, this judgment is already been finalized, passed against them. For them their is no forgiveness, no offering, no Christ's death since as they do not believe they are not part of God's New
Covenant. How can they gain anything from Christ's death as they are dead in their sins.
Not quite...anyone could kill an animal on an altar. But one had to ask for forgiveness. It was and still is a two stage event...blood sacrifice and asking of forgiveness (repenting). What God did by His grace was take care of the first part for us...no longer is a blood sacrifice needed...because nothing could be more perfect than Christ. So now we have but one thing to do...believe. Man is not reconciled with God until man asks for forgiveness and accepts Christ. But the price of shedding blood is already taken care of for man.The blood sacrifice is an atonement, a sin offering as following the OT sacrifices, for the forgiveness of sin for believers, yet your say it is the forgiveness of sin for unbelievers, and you seem to have no trouble with that.
Again not entirely correct. For someone who is a believer, atonement is not necissary. See you are not understanding the purpose of atonement. It is a reconciliation which even by Websters means "act of causing two people or groups to become friendly again". A believer, someone who is saved, does not need atonement. But an unbeliever is the one who needs atonment. Atonment is for the unbeliever to become a believer. To make things right with God. Those that are already right...don't need atonement.In the OC, those who had the atonement were the people called Israel that God called out from the nations to be His own special people.
In the NC, this has been expanded to the entire world, but the restriction is that the atonement, forgiveness of sin is for believers only, and not the whole world.
Nope. And I think I have explained it enough to make it clear that this is not what I say, nor is it the logical conclusion. It does indicate that you may not completely understand atonment, however.What your saying, then you must logically conclude the whole world's sins are forgiven in Christ which is not scriptural.
OK, what verse says what you've posted in red?lol
Previously, I have presented the 8 verses (or so) which clearly state ...
One must endure with his/her faith ...
until the end of his/her life ...
to receive eternal life!
I think the "must" refers to eternal life!
How many times must the qvestions be answered to end the confusion?
Please respond with a number in dozens. Tanks!.
Not even close.Hopefully just this one time - I'll go against my better instincts here and comment on this strictly for the benefit of those reading along.
FreeGrace2 knows my thoughts on this because they have been explained to him in the past. I suppose that he just thinks that he can ignore what I have said in the past and that no one will remember.
Except there is NO connection between the clear gospel message to mankind and the parables of Jesus. None whatsoever. He spoke in parables for the ones who wouldn't believe.I do not believe that natural man cannot understand the message of the gospel in the sense that they do not understand words. I don't believe that the hearers of the parables could not understand the words either.
One has to assume this refers to both the gospel and parables. Except it cannot refer to the gospel. If one can understand the gospel offer, then one can certainly understand how that applies to themself.It is the personal application of those messages which they cannot grasp.
They can certainly understand the message of the gospel and reject it.The need for a personal application of either a parable or the gospel itself is lost on them because they have not agreed to the sin of and repented of their personal conduct as sinners who are worthy only of the wrath of God.
No, we don't see birth as a result of generation. Spiritual birth is immediate; not a process like fertilization of a human and eventual birth. I believe the concepts of being born again, regeneration and spiritual birth to be one and the same thing. You may disagree.We see birth as a result of generation already having taken place. The birth is not the generation.
There is no evidence in Scripture that God puts a human soul into a fertilized egg. None whatsoever. He certainly does put the soul into the body at some point.FreeGrace2 has disagreed with my view on this in the past. He does not believe that the human soul exists before birth. We have discussed his views on abortion in the past and I will not do it again. If a person can't figure out from scripture when the incarnation took place (when Jesus became fully human) I can't lead him to the water again and again and make him drink.
That is not what John 6:45 says. It says those who listen and learn. Not all those who are taught have learned. The teacher can teach all he/she wants, but if a student isn't paying attention, they aren't learning, even though they are being taught.But eventually all those who are taught of God will come to the Savior.
No, the verse is clear about who God loves: the world. The gospel of John frequently refers to unbelievers as the world, and NEVER refers to believers as the world.Consider no where in John 3:16 does it mention unbelievers, they are excluded from the text.
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