There is no "proof" of anything except what makes you personnally happy, does that make you happy?
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This is why I don't believe Jesus is God...please tell me where I'm wrong
- Thread starter daviedave
- Start date
Adoniram
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daviedave-
For each of us it ultimately comes down to a personal decision of what we choose to believe. Are you willing to let the diversified opinions of others make your choice for you? You think God has left us with a complicated set of factors to wade through in order to make that choice. But that's not really true. It all really boils down to what Jesus says in John 3:16-
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
The question is, would you believe even if you had absolute definitive proof? Can you say truthfully that if Jesus stood before you today and performed a miracle, you would believe? I'm not sure anyone can honestly answer that with a positive affirmative. Two thousand years ago Jesus stood in front of people performing signs and miracles that proved he was sent from God, that he was indeed the Son of God, yet the majority of the people still did not believe. They crucified him.
God has provided us, through the Bible and with evidences in creation (Rom. 1:20), with all the information we need to make an informed decision as to what we will believe. It is not his fault that the "experts," the philosophers, and even differing "religions" muddle it all up. "God is not the author of confusion but of peace" (1 Cor. 14:33) It is Satan that seeks to confuse and confound what God would have us know about himself. 2 Cor. 4:3-4
"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. "
Jesus had a comment about the situation in which you find yourself- John 8:42-47
Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears Gods words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.
To you, the truth is veiled, you don't quite understand it. You find yourself being led by opinions of "experts" who say there is no definitive proof, who are in turn led by the deceiver, the god of this age, the father of lies, who seeks to confound God's message and his plan for salvation.
But, the decision of who and what to believe is yours and yours alone. Do not let yourself be swayed by the confusing opinions of the "experts." It is clear that God's Holy Spirit is ministering to you, guiding and encouraging you to seek the truth for yourself. Otherwise, you would not be here asking questions.
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
(BTW- when MikeMcK suggested that you read Rom 5-7, he was talking about chapters 5-7, not chapter 1 verses 5-7)
Anyway, the words believe and faith are often used interchangeably in the Bible. But in actuality, I think a conscience decision to believe the message comes first, and then faith grows from that as we grow in knowledge of God through the teaching of the Holy Spirit and the study of God's Word. We have faith that what we have chosen to believe will come to pass. 1 Pet. 1:3-9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faiththe salvation of your souls.
This is the peace and the hope that we have. Phil. 4:7
"and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."
If this is what you want, then in spite of the doubts and confusions of the "experts," you need to make your own decision to believe in the Lord Jesus. No other "god," no other "religion," no science or philosophy can give you the peace of God. The peace that comes in knowing that your eternal destination is secure. That's not to say that life in general becomes easier. You may even be subject to ridicule from your peers, but you will live with a peace in your heart.
It's not complicated; it's a simple decision. It was purposely made simple so that even a child could understand it. Who you will put your trust in? The "experts" who can't agree on anything, or the God and creator of the universe. John 1
1 "In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it......
10 He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God......
14 And the Word [Jesus] became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Nothing could be simpler.
For each of us it ultimately comes down to a personal decision of what we choose to believe. Are you willing to let the diversified opinions of others make your choice for you? You think God has left us with a complicated set of factors to wade through in order to make that choice. But that's not really true. It all really boils down to what Jesus says in John 3:16-
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
The question is, would you believe even if you had absolute definitive proof? Can you say truthfully that if Jesus stood before you today and performed a miracle, you would believe? I'm not sure anyone can honestly answer that with a positive affirmative. Two thousand years ago Jesus stood in front of people performing signs and miracles that proved he was sent from God, that he was indeed the Son of God, yet the majority of the people still did not believe. They crucified him.
God has provided us, through the Bible and with evidences in creation (Rom. 1:20), with all the information we need to make an informed decision as to what we will believe. It is not his fault that the "experts," the philosophers, and even differing "religions" muddle it all up. "God is not the author of confusion but of peace" (1 Cor. 14:33) It is Satan that seeks to confuse and confound what God would have us know about himself. 2 Cor. 4:3-4
"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. "
Jesus had a comment about the situation in which you find yourself- John 8:42-47
Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears Gods words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.
To you, the truth is veiled, you don't quite understand it. You find yourself being led by opinions of "experts" who say there is no definitive proof, who are in turn led by the deceiver, the god of this age, the father of lies, who seeks to confound God's message and his plan for salvation.
But, the decision of who and what to believe is yours and yours alone. Do not let yourself be swayed by the confusing opinions of the "experts." It is clear that God's Holy Spirit is ministering to you, guiding and encouraging you to seek the truth for yourself. Otherwise, you would not be here asking questions.
The peace you seek is indeed possible to obtain. Rom. 5:1
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
(BTW- when MikeMcK suggested that you read Rom 5-7, he was talking about chapters 5-7, not chapter 1 verses 5-7)
Anyway, the words believe and faith are often used interchangeably in the Bible. But in actuality, I think a conscience decision to believe the message comes first, and then faith grows from that as we grow in knowledge of God through the teaching of the Holy Spirit and the study of God's Word. We have faith that what we have chosen to believe will come to pass. 1 Pet. 1:3-9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faiththe salvation of your souls.
This is the peace and the hope that we have. Phil. 4:7
"and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."
If this is what you want, then in spite of the doubts and confusions of the "experts," you need to make your own decision to believe in the Lord Jesus. No other "god," no other "religion," no science or philosophy can give you the peace of God. The peace that comes in knowing that your eternal destination is secure. That's not to say that life in general becomes easier. You may even be subject to ridicule from your peers, but you will live with a peace in your heart.
It's not complicated; it's a simple decision. It was purposely made simple so that even a child could understand it. Who you will put your trust in? The "experts" who can't agree on anything, or the God and creator of the universe. John 1
1 "In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it......
10 He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God......
14 And the Word [Jesus] became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Nothing could be simpler.
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People in general don't have any "problem" believing in mean, cruel, sadistic gods. I don't understand your two arguements. Are you fighting with the question of whether Jesus is God, or are you fighting with your image of him.
Your image is really a rather secondary thing. If a god is cruel or whatever, it doesn't much matter is he is god does it? So you really don't need to worry about your second question much of any, you really need to focus on who is God?
Now if you study religions, you find an amazing number of them don't even claim to be or have a god. I guess you don't have to much worry about them, do you? And then there is the huge number that makes the basic claim that man is or will be god. All those can be dealt with in the basic question of whether man is god. Either he isn't so you can get rid of them, or he is which makes them all equal doesn't it?
If you make it past them. Then there is the relative handful of religions where it is claimed that they reveal the supernatural god. Among them would be such religions as Judaism, Christianity and Muslim. But there would also be others.
Now no need here to just throw a dart. Study them, see which tells the truth, which shows the power of God.
If you end up coming down to the three previously mentioned, and I think you will, but you do it, I can't do it for you. Then it still is really simple. It's Jesus. Was Jesus some insane person? Then you go Judaism. Was Jesus a holy prophet, but only a man? Then it must be Islam. Or is Jesus true God and true man, that would b Christianity.
Just break it down to the foundations, and do some rather simple research without getting lost in all the trappings and mumbo jumbo and it really becomes pretty easy to reach each little individual conclusion.
Then, when you get done, your faith is not blind faith. Of course blind faith is one of those great errors. Faith really isn't something that is of nothing, it is indeed a trusting belief but it's not just deciding to believe something without and despite any evidence to the contrary.
Marv
Your image is really a rather secondary thing. If a god is cruel or whatever, it doesn't much matter is he is god does it? So you really don't need to worry about your second question much of any, you really need to focus on who is God?
Now if you study religions, you find an amazing number of them don't even claim to be or have a god. I guess you don't have to much worry about them, do you? And then there is the huge number that makes the basic claim that man is or will be god. All those can be dealt with in the basic question of whether man is god. Either he isn't so you can get rid of them, or he is which makes them all equal doesn't it?
If you make it past them. Then there is the relative handful of religions where it is claimed that they reveal the supernatural god. Among them would be such religions as Judaism, Christianity and Muslim. But there would also be others.
Now no need here to just throw a dart. Study them, see which tells the truth, which shows the power of God.
If you end up coming down to the three previously mentioned, and I think you will, but you do it, I can't do it for you. Then it still is really simple. It's Jesus. Was Jesus some insane person? Then you go Judaism. Was Jesus a holy prophet, but only a man? Then it must be Islam. Or is Jesus true God and true man, that would b Christianity.
Just break it down to the foundations, and do some rather simple research without getting lost in all the trappings and mumbo jumbo and it really becomes pretty easy to reach each little individual conclusion.
Then, when you get done, your faith is not blind faith. Of course blind faith is one of those great errors. Faith really isn't something that is of nothing, it is indeed a trusting belief but it's not just deciding to believe something without and despite any evidence to the contrary.
Marv
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MelissaShae
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Being a Christian does not make your life easier.....it in fact makes it harder because Satan will then try everything he can and use anyone he can to try and sway you from your faith.
Satan will cloud our judgement about God and tell us that he is not real or he is cruel when in fact this is a lie from Satan.
God will provide you with all the answers you seek if you seek him.
Satan will cloud our judgement about God and tell us that he is not real or he is cruel when in fact this is a lie from Satan.
God will provide you with all the answers you seek if you seek him.
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That depends on how you define an "essential doctrine."
Plenty of people would consider the necessity to believe in Christ to get to heaven an essential doctrine, yet not all Christians agree on that. Some think if you're a generally good person, you can get to heaven. Others think you can be the best person in the world, but if you don't specifically believe in Jesus, you go to hell.
We are indeed talking about what others believe; that's inescapable. If I am to pick a religion, I'm going to have to adopt someone else's belief, unless I invent my own new religion. I don't think Christianity has ever spontaneously sprouted up in someone's mind. The choice of which religion to believe in, and therefore who is really God, is a choice of whose belief to adopt.
Actually, that would be a very interesting experiment! Take 20 people who have never heard of Christianity or any other Abrahamic religion, throw them on a completely isolated Island, isolate them from each other, and then see what each thinks is the "true" meaning of Christianity after a year. I'd be willing to bet everything I own that you'd end up with a wide variety of interpretations...
The Bible is anything but clear, which is why early Christians and Jews argued and had committees about who exactly Jesus was and what Christianity is all about.
No, I don't believe that Jesus is God. But please don't confuse my lack of belief that Jesus is God with me making an affirmative statement that Jesus is not God.
You're right, but his claims, claims made in the Bible, and claims made by Christians all can be subject to scientific scrutiny.
Apparently after 2000 years, most of humanity hasn't gotten the memo. The evidence can't be that overwhelming.
I don't know they're telling the truth, and it might be a conspiracy theory. Anything is possible. The Easter Bunny could be real, and Jesus could be Satan in disguise trying to deceive you into denying the Easter Bunny.
We can easily take your "you can't prove anything" logic to the point of absurdity. As humans, we never know anything for sure; instead we have to make a call based on probability given the information. And this is key, sometimes, as in the case of God, we just don't have enough information to make any call.
There is no serious disagreement about whether George Washington was president, nor has there ever been any real reason for such a myth to be perpetuated. Therefore, I'm comfortable believing that he probably was president.
On the other hand, there is MAJOR disagreement about whether Jesus is really God, and there have been a variety of strong reasons to perpetuate such a myth, if it is a myth. Therefore, I'm not comfortable believing that Jesus probably was God.
You're asking about how I know that he was president, not how I know if the details of his presidency are true. I'm very open to the possibility that the details of his presidency were distorted by the time they reached me.
Even if men were willing to acknowledge intellectually that Allah is God and Mohamed is his prophet, they would still deny it because to confess it would be to confess that they face His judgment.
You see how what you're saying is circular and could be applied to any deity?
That other religions are using, essentially, the same arguments to "prove" other deities that you're using to "prove" Jesus is at the very heart of this discussion.
I am asking how I am supposed pick the real God, when so many different religions are claiming the real God. Comparing and contrasting the arguments is extremely important.
Okay, to not get caught in semantics, plenty of people have denied that Jesus is God, and even as we speak, more than 2/3 of all humans deny he is God. Furthermore, before the Council of Nicea voted that Jesus is God, there were also plenty of people who disagreed over the divinity of Jesus. And let us not forget the Jews, who think Jesus is simply a crazy, misguided Jew who started wrongly calling himself God.
Add in all the other religions who deny/disagree about Jesus, and there is not a cloud of doubt surrounding Jesus...it's a huge, massive rainstorm hanging over the issue. That can be hard to digest if you live in a very Christian environment, where your immediate experience tells you that it's "obvious" that Jesus is God.
Wait a minute...are you saying that a person cannot disbelieve in a deity without doing thorough study first? By being a monotheistic Christian, you and every other Christian necessarily denies the existence of innumerable other deities and religions. Have you extensively studied each one?
Again, this somewhat depends on how you define an "essential" doctrine, but I think you'll agree that Catholics and Protestants disagree on some extremely important things...things important enough to spark wars and age old divisions.
I won't go into the details of their differences, like Papal infallibility, because I assume you already know them.
True...not every Christian gets into heaven, but you do need to be a Christian to get into heaven (at least a lot of Christians believe that...see disagreement over essential doctrines). If I'm to have a shot at getting into heaven, I need to pick the right God in the first place. That doesn't necessarily mean I'll get there, but it's a necessary first step, right?
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MelissaShae
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There is no picking of the right God, there is only one God and if you don't believe His word and in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then you will not make it heaven.
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daviedave---
The christian God can be separated definitely from other "gods". First there is intellectual evidence and faith isn't blind faith at all. Science points to it.
Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (who was an athiest but now a christian) has objective facts that support christianity. Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell would stand up in a court of law. These are only two books out of many.
Go to: www.reasons.org - it combines science and faith. The person who started this website has a PhD in Chemistry.
After receiving the Holy Spirit no one can tell me that my faith is "blind". After one receives this experience, no one can talk them into this not existing. It can't be ignored but one would have to be in outright denial. This is like telling me that the sun is the moon. It's not happening.
The Bible is the only book that could be supernatural and it does prove itself. It has hundreds of detailed prophesies in it that has come true and more to come.
Below is only "some" information in a nutshell about the Bible.
Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)
Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible
- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)
**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.
-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10
Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.
Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.
External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)
Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel
The christian God can be separated definitely from other "gods". First there is intellectual evidence and faith isn't blind faith at all. Science points to it.
Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (who was an athiest but now a christian) has objective facts that support christianity. Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell would stand up in a court of law. These are only two books out of many.
Go to: www.reasons.org - it combines science and faith. The person who started this website has a PhD in Chemistry.
After receiving the Holy Spirit no one can tell me that my faith is "blind". After one receives this experience, no one can talk them into this not existing. It can't be ignored but one would have to be in outright denial. This is like telling me that the sun is the moon. It's not happening.
The Bible is the only book that could be supernatural and it does prove itself. It has hundreds of detailed prophesies in it that has come true and more to come.
Below is only "some" information in a nutshell about the Bible.
Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)
Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible
- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)
**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.
-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10
Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.
Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.
External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)
Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel
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MikeMcK
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Those doctrines necessary for salvation, and which define Christianity.
Then they're not Christians.
Probably. But then you're also forgetting that they have no way of knowing what Christianity teaches without God's word.
OK. If you believe the Bible is unclear, tell me what you believe is unclear about it.
Anything you say, President Clinton.
Then you don't understand scientific scrutiny. In order to judge them scientifically, they would have to be replicated in a controlled environment.
No, it is still overwhelming. However, there are two factors working against it.
1. Ignorance. Most non-Christians don't understand it. They don't know what it says.
2. Sin. Even Jesus said that men would reject the truth because they love their sin too much.
I see. So then, you still believe it, even though you admit that it could be a conspiracy theory?
Except that I didn't say you couldn't prove it. I just asked how you know.
You made the claim that jesus cannot be God because the details of His life and ministry are controversial.
If you're going to say that Jesus cannot be God because the details of His life and ministry are not universally recognized, then you cannot say that you believe in George Washington because the deatials of his life and ministry are also subject to much disagreement.
You're unwilling to hold one to the same standard that you hold the other. That's hypocrisy.
Yes, but we're talking about this particular deity.
But the problem is that they're only apologetic is "convert or die". There is actually great evidence to argue that Jesus was telling the truth.
But you don't seem to be wiling to do that. Anytime I try to get you to take a look at the evidence, you dismiss it and you've already shown that you will not hold Jesus Christ to the same standard as other historical figures.
It isn't a matter of semantics, but of the beliefs that God's word determines who is or is not a Christian.
And how well have these other religions examined God's word?
Oh, you can believe or disbelieve anything you want to. But the question then becomes, do your beliefs have any merit. If you haven't examined the evidence for or against, then the answer is no.
We're not talking about other deities. We're talking about Jesus Christ.
There are many serious concerns about Roman catholic theology, but on the whole, they do hold to the essentials.
Not an essential.
Not necessarily.
And here we go back to your falacious "pick the winner" argument.
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First, let me say I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I'm here to honestly speak of my doubts in Christianity in the spirit of open mindedness and in the hope that I learn something new.
While I am no longer a Christian myself, I am not hostile to Christianity. I simple cannot bring myself to believe in it any longer.
With that said, here is why I don't believe that Jesus is God. If you can spot a flaw in my thinking, and you think telling me about it will restore my faith in Jesus, then please do. Being a Christian again would make my life much easier:
I don't believe that Jesus is God, essentially, because there is no proof that Jesus is really God, as opposed to Allah, Vishnu, Zoroaster, Zeus, etc. After I've told you that I don't believe that Jesus is God can be proven, you can only respond in one of two ways:
1) That Jesus' divinity cannot be proven, but that shouldn't matter because one should believe in Jesus as a matter of faith (i.e., in absence of proof).
OR
2) By telling me that, in fact, Jesus is God and it can be proven through historical, scientific, archaeological, etc. evidence.
Here is my response to (1):
If there is no proof which separates the real God from the fakes, and I am instead to simply take a leap of faith, then why should I pick Jesus?
If I'm essentially to believe...well, just because...then why would I pick Jesus? Why don't I just put up the name of every deity on my wall which humans have ever believed in and throw darts? After all, less than 1/3 of humans on Earth believe that Jesus is God. The rest believe in a collection of other Gods, so it's not as if picking a which God is real is an easy thing to do-- plenty of smart people believe just as firmly as Christians do that Jesus is not real.
In other words, if you say that believing in Jesus is a matter of faith, not proof, then I can't accept that reasoning because there is nothing stopping me from becoming a Muslim instead of a Christian. I might as well throw darts.
Here is my response to (2):
While some argue there is proof that Jesus is God, I am not in a position to properly evaluate that proof.
No one human is a historian, archaeologist, logician, linguist, theologian, physicist, biologist, astronomer or expert in every field which purports to prove that Jesus is God. Therefore, we have to take the advice of experts in these fields to weigh the supposed evidence that Jesus is God. And because the experts in all of these fields cannot agree on whether Jesus is God, how am I supposed to know what, if anything, the evidence proves? I cannot know, and therefore even if there is proof, it's beyond me to understand it.
The combination of these two answers constitutes my strongest reason for not believing in Jesus-- that Jesus' existence cannot be proven because no human is an expert in enough fields to evaluate the proof if there is any; and if people cannot decide which the real god is based on proof, then humans are essentially making an arbitrary choice. God, therefore, has put humans into an impossible situation where they will likely go to hell based on chance!
This would make Jesus, if he is real, a very sadistic, cruel being. He has essentially put humans in a room with a gun to their head, told them to pick a number between 1-100 (pick a religion among many), and if the human guesses the wrong one, he will blow their head off (send them to hell forever)!
What kind of sadistic God would dream up such a scheme? What kind of loving father would play Russian roulette with his kids?
The end result is either that this situation is so absurd that it cannot be true, or Jesus is a cruel, sadistic God who will likely torture me no matter what I do.
I personally think that all people believe that Jesus is God because they realise that there is power in His name. I mean, for example, you don't hear people walking around yelling out, for Muhammad's sake, or Muhmmad!, or for Buddah's sake, etc. There is no power in their names, yet most people I hear use the name of Jesus I believe because there is power in that name.
I don't think it's a matter of fact about people not knowing the truth but just not wanting to believe it because to do so would mean that they would have to acknowledge that they would be accountable to Him for the way that they live their lives and so on.
I invite you to consider the testimonies of many Christians as well. People can argue over evidence until the Lord's return, but one thing that they can't argue with is a reformed or revolutionized life that actively shows the work of God. For example, check out some of Joyce Meyer's books or her bio, she was a mess before God started to work in her life due to being abused and so on as a child, yet He took her ashes and replaced them with beauty. Also, consider checking out Brother Yun's book The Heavenly Man. How God worked in his life is amazing.
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Okay, well then not all Christians agree about what is necessary for salvation. Some believe you have to profess that Jesus is God to get to heaven, others don't. Others think certain things, such as homosexuality are not necessarily barriers to heaven, others do. The list goes on...
Who are you to decide who is, and is not, a Christian? Since God isn't stepping in to tell us who is right, the Pope's opinions are presumptively as valid as Jerry Falwell's.
Isn't that evidence that God is either sadistic or incompetent? He has the power to communicate directly, to every man, woman and child on Earth, with perfect clarity, his message, yet he chooses to relay THE most important message any human could ever receive in, essentially, a book that humans must trudge through oceans, forests and mountains?
Obviously such an inefficient, imperfect method of communicate will often leave his message distorted or undelivered. Why would God do that? He doesn't have the power to do it better? Or he just prefers that some people never receive salvation?
Wow, that's quite a vast question...ambiguity and contradiction in the Bible could fill many, many books. I'm not going to try to rehash the entire subject here.
But why would you ask me? Do you think that the Bible is really 100% clear and you'll be able to tell me the "true" meaning of whatever I think is unclear? You can't possibly think the Bible is clear in the face of dozens of Christian denominations, which argue daily about modern day issues like abortion, all the way to theological issues like whether the Pope is infallible.
Nonetheless, since you asked, I will give you one example-- can a rich man get into heaven?
If we go with the plain meaning of the above passage, it's states unequivocally that it is impossible for a rich man to get into heaven. Still, some Christians argue that it just means it's difficult, but not impossible, because the passage alludes to a small entrance which a camel can get through.
What is the true meaning? No one knows...do we go with plain meaning or interpretation?
Do you think there's a bunny hiding in one of my neighbor's garages right now? You can't say yes, because you don't know, and you can't say no, because you don't know that either. So if I say, "Look, you either believe there's a bunny hiding or not, which is it?" I suppose you'll eventually just say, "No, I don't believe there's a bunny hiding...why would I? You don't affirmatively think there is no bunny, yet you still don't believe there is one.
See the difference? I have no idea whether Jesus is God. I have no way of knowing. But if you press me to answer, I suppose I'll tell you I don't believe in God, as I'm not in the habit of saying I know things which I don't know.
Call it Clinton if you want, but sometimes not everything can fit on a bumper sticker.
If the Bible claims the Earth is 6,000 years old, you don't think scientific testing has anything to say about that? I don't claim that science can test Jesus himself. I'm saying that science can test certain claims made in the Bible. Those tests indeed can be replicated in a controlled environment.
1. What sort of loving God would communicate his message in such a way that his child cannot understand it, and therefore will go to hell? If I don't want my child to cross the street and get hit by a bus, and I can communicate that in a way she understands, I will. I don't communicate it in a way I know it likely won't be understood.
2. Well, you keep going back to that rationale, that ultimately if people don't agree with you, it's because they don't want to agree with you. I'm sure there are people of various religions saying the same thing about you not wanting to believe in Allah, Vishnu or whomever. Hell, I can say right now you don't believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn because you don't want to...look, my book even says you don't want to! It's a pretty flimsy argument.
Of course. Just because something is possible, that doesn't mean it's probable. It's possible George Washington is a big conspiracy, but it's not probable. The same cannot be said for Jesus. Given the thousands of years of disagreement about him, and even today hundreds of millions not believing in him, I'd say it's quite possible Jesus isn't God, and maybe even probable. I wouldn't even be open to the possibility it's probable GW was never really president. Who would?.
I don't know for certain George Washington was president. I only know to a reasonable degree of certainty, given there is ample historical evidence he was president that no serious historian disputes. How do I know there's evidence? I don't...I haven't seen it with my own eyes, but don't you think we all would have heard about it by now if there were serious historians disputing the evidence or even if there were no evidence?
I never said that Jesus cannot be God. Refer back to my original post. I'm saying that whether or not Jesus is God cannot be determined by humans, and since I cannot determine whether he's God, I'm not going to say that he is.
The only reason I bring up intra-Christian disputes about Jesus' life is because you continually dismiss what I'm saying by telling me that I'm misinterpreting Christianity. That implies there is one true interpretation of Christianity I must understand. I'm pointing out that there is no one true interpretation of Christianity because Christians have been fighting over exactly that for thousands of years. No one has been fighting about whether George Washington was president.
Regarding this analogy, you're missing a huge distinction...sure, the details of GW's life and message are in controversy, but whether he was ever president is certainly not! With Jesus, whether he was God, in itself, is in controversy, in addition to the details of his life and message.
It's not hypocrisy. That's a glaring difference between asking whether George Washington was ever president and asking whether Jesus was really God. You're trying to say the two are equally reasonable questions based on the technicality that anything is possible, which is ridiculous.
Then it would help if you used reasoning that specifically applied to this deity, instead of vague, circular reasoning that could be applied to any deity. Saying that "XYZ is the true God, and people will always deny XYZ because there afraid" is hollow. I could fill in XYZ with The Flying Spaghetti Monster and it would be as substantive as your filling it in with Jesus.
That's simply not true. For example, ike I said, type in "proof in quran" into Google, and you'll see all sorts of scientific, historical, astrological, etc. arguments purporting to empirically and otherwise prove that Allah is God. Christianity is not the only religion which claims to have external evidence proving its validity.
And in truth, unless you're a mathematician, astrologist and historian, you're in no better a position than I to evaluate that evidence.
I don't dismiss the evidence. I'm telling you that I am not schooled enough in the subjects of the evidence to intelligently evaluate it. I am no historian or theologist.
If a police man tells you that he can prove Joe shot Sam, and then he hands you all sorts of DNA and ballistics evidence, what are you supposed to do? Nothing. You'd have to ask the forensic scientists...and then what if the scientists don't agree?
That's basically what's happening with the evidence that Jesus is God.
When you tell me a prophecy was fulfilled, I have no idea whether you're properly representing the prophecy or that it supposedly was fulfilled.
That was part of my original argument about why I can't believe Jesus is God....even if there is alleged proof, I can't evaluate it myself, and the experts don't agree on it. So I'm left in a position where I can't make a conclusion either way.
There's just one problem-- God's word determines who is or is not a Christian as a result of political decisions made ages ago. It's no secret that before the Roman Catholic Church forced their doctrines on everyone, and before the Council of Nicea convened, people had quite different ideas than yours about who is a Christian and who was Jesus.
Probably not very well, considering the vast majority of people don't have the time or expertise to seriously study one religion, let alone multiples. That's not evidence that the other religions are wrong, however, and Christianity is right.
It's evidence that no one really knows what they're talking about, and people mostly just grab on to the religion into which they were born. Or did you think it was a coincidence that all these Christians keep popping up in the West and Muslims keep popping up in the Middle East? Do you honestly think that if you were switched at birth and put with a family in Saudi Arabia, you wouldn't passionately feel the same for Allah that you do now for Jesus?
Well you and I do both agree on something here-- that a belief without evidence behind it is without merit. Except I would qualify that to mean a belief without evidence that you're qualified to analyze is without merit.
I don't purport to be able to analyze DNA or ballistic evidence at crime scenes, and if I did, my opinion about what that evidence says would be pretty worthless, yet lay Christians take on the role of biologist, archaeologist, theologist, linguist, etc. and think they've truly evaluated the evidence. In reality they don't know what they're talking about.
It's not my argument. The presence of multiple monotheistic religions necessarily means that we're in a "pick the winner" situation. I didn't make it up. I'm just stuck here with the rest of you.
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Lehr
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Davie, this arguement could go on for some time and there is no way we can convince you that jesus was the son of god. You have to find that out by reading the bible, and seeking god. Look at jesus's teachings and the word he brings, and tell me if that sounds like god speaking.
So its up to you, which one will you believe
If jesus was a mad man, Judeism (whoever you spell it)
If you believe jesus was a regular man but a profit, Islam.
If you believe he was the son of god, Christianity
Now even if you pick the wrong religion, in my belief (catholisism) everyone gets a second chance when they god to pergatory. So who knows, you might be forgiven if you pick the wrong one.
I would rather die believing in something, than die believing in nothing.
When you have REAL faith, then you will have REAL peace
So its up to you, which one will you believe
If jesus was a mad man, Judeism (whoever you spell it)
If you believe jesus was a regular man but a profit, Islam.
If you believe he was the son of god, Christianity
Now even if you pick the wrong religion, in my belief (catholisism) everyone gets a second chance when they god to pergatory. So who knows, you might be forgiven if you pick the wrong one.
I would rather die believing in something, than die believing in nothing.
When you have REAL faith, then you will have REAL peace
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MikeMcK
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Originally, I typed out a very long and very detailed response. However, I now realize that you're not sincere and I don't believe that you're here to have an honest discussion.
Mods, please feel free to edit or delete any of my posts that you see as "debating".
Mods, please feel free to edit or delete any of my posts that you see as "debating".
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childofGod31
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Daviedate,
I just wanted to add my 2 cents.
I believe that God predestined HIS chosen people to be saved. "Those he predestined, he called..." So God is not playing Russian roulette with his children. All HIS children will be saved ( He will make sure of that.)
Then there are non-chosen people, to whom Jesus will say: I never knew you, away from me. I don't know God's plans or why it's so, but Paul says if God created people then He has the right to do what He wishes. Perhaps there are rules of the "game" that we are not aware of. And that is the reason God cannot choose all the people for salvation. If non-chosen people will just cease to exist at the end, I don't see any problem with that. If you are the creator, you can do what you want with your project.
Since I believe God is very real (and also Jesus), I believe you need to pray and Jesus will show the way.
How religions are different from Christianity? Well, does anybody else's religion claim that their deity created the earth? Do they have witness accounts about how they came to this earth and did miracles? Do they have witness accounts that they were raised to life again? Do they claim that they came to die for their creation? If so, that would be a good deity to choose. And after you become converted, and you feel communion with that deity and tangible answers to your prayers and joy, then you made a good choice.
And if in the end it turns out that you chose the wrong religion, (because you were not one of God's chosen)well, you gave it your best shot. And that's all anybody can do, right? Then at least you won't feel regret that you didn't try.
I just wanted to add my 2 cents.
I believe that God predestined HIS chosen people to be saved. "Those he predestined, he called..." So God is not playing Russian roulette with his children. All HIS children will be saved ( He will make sure of that.)
Then there are non-chosen people, to whom Jesus will say: I never knew you, away from me. I don't know God's plans or why it's so, but Paul says if God created people then He has the right to do what He wishes. Perhaps there are rules of the "game" that we are not aware of. And that is the reason God cannot choose all the people for salvation. If non-chosen people will just cease to exist at the end, I don't see any problem with that. If you are the creator, you can do what you want with your project.
Since I believe God is very real (and also Jesus), I believe you need to pray and Jesus will show the way.
How religions are different from Christianity? Well, does anybody else's religion claim that their deity created the earth? Do they have witness accounts about how they came to this earth and did miracles? Do they have witness accounts that they were raised to life again? Do they claim that they came to die for their creation? If so, that would be a good deity to choose. And after you become converted, and you feel communion with that deity and tangible answers to your prayers and joy, then you made a good choice.
And if in the end it turns out that you chose the wrong religion, (because you were not one of God's chosen)well, you gave it your best shot. And that's all anybody can do, right? Then at least you won't feel regret that you didn't try.
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Ultimately, believing in the divinity of Jesus has to based on evaluating the things Jesus said, and deciding for yourself if you think that Christ's message is the message that God would give if God were a man.
As for believing in Jesus versus other religious figures, it's simply a matter of deciding whether the red-letters words are The Truth versus the words of other figures. Personally, after studying pretty much every religion and belief system known to man, what Jesus said makes more sense to me than what anyone else has said.
As for proving it, if Jesus spoke the truth, then the message should be logically verifiable. I think the message of Jesus is very reasonable because I've seen the logical verifications of it. There's nothing irrational about it to me, either about the ethical teachings or the metaphysical teachings. A lot of people might think it is irrational, especially people who don't believe in God, but those people probably don't share my notion of what Jesus meant by God. To me, God can be logically proved (because I've been debating it for years and have heard all the arguments for and against, but none of the arguments are as powerful as personal experiences with God in action, and once you've had the experiences, you'll believe, regardless of any arguments you might have heard).
I can't prove the miracles of Jesus, the resurrection of Jesus, or really anything about Jesus. All I know is what Jesus is *reported* to have said, in the Gospels. But that's enough to make me believe that Jesus is real and that Jesus is coming back as claimed! I can't prove any of what happened, but I can prove that the message makes sense.
It makes perfect sense that if people start loving each other, they'll stop dying. It's not that complicated when you boil it down to that. Love leads to life, hate leads to death... duh! I don't find it irrational that in the bigness of the universe, there's a being who is smart enough to know how to resurrect the human body from death, and that that being is willing to do so for me if I will be his friend.
As for believing in Jesus versus other religious figures, it's simply a matter of deciding whether the red-letters words are The Truth versus the words of other figures. Personally, after studying pretty much every religion and belief system known to man, what Jesus said makes more sense to me than what anyone else has said.
As for proving it, if Jesus spoke the truth, then the message should be logically verifiable. I think the message of Jesus is very reasonable because I've seen the logical verifications of it. There's nothing irrational about it to me, either about the ethical teachings or the metaphysical teachings. A lot of people might think it is irrational, especially people who don't believe in God, but those people probably don't share my notion of what Jesus meant by God. To me, God can be logically proved (because I've been debating it for years and have heard all the arguments for and against, but none of the arguments are as powerful as personal experiences with God in action, and once you've had the experiences, you'll believe, regardless of any arguments you might have heard).
I can't prove the miracles of Jesus, the resurrection of Jesus, or really anything about Jesus. All I know is what Jesus is *reported* to have said, in the Gospels. But that's enough to make me believe that Jesus is real and that Jesus is coming back as claimed! I can't prove any of what happened, but I can prove that the message makes sense.
It makes perfect sense that if people start loving each other, they'll stop dying. It's not that complicated when you boil it down to that. Love leads to life, hate leads to death... duh! I don't find it irrational that in the bigness of the universe, there's a being who is smart enough to know how to resurrect the human body from death, and that that being is willing to do so for me if I will be his friend.
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daviedave----
Your looking in the wrong areas for these answers. First, to believe anything about Jesus intellectually one must first recognize the overwhelming evidence that supports the Bible. In fact, the Bible is the most true book in the world because its evidence; it can only be a supernatural book. No, this isn't just my opinion but independent truths like the law of gravity. Its a spiritual decision first, and second an intellectual one.
I strongly suggest you read Evidence Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (these facts would stand up in a court of law). And Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (an athiest but now a christian).
Below in a nutshell are some facts about the Bible because this email is only large.
Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)
Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible
- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)
**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.
-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10
Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.
Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.
External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)
Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel (this evidence is continuous as they find things nonstop til the present and beyond)
Your looking in the wrong areas for these answers. First, to believe anything about Jesus intellectually one must first recognize the overwhelming evidence that supports the Bible. In fact, the Bible is the most true book in the world because its evidence; it can only be a supernatural book. No, this isn't just my opinion but independent truths like the law of gravity. Its a spiritual decision first, and second an intellectual one.
I strongly suggest you read Evidence Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (these facts would stand up in a court of law). And Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (an athiest but now a christian).
Below in a nutshell are some facts about the Bible because this email is only large.
Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)
Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible
- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)
**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.
-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10
Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.
Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.
External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)
Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel (this evidence is continuous as they find things nonstop til the present and beyond)
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HolyGuardianAngels
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First, let me say I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I'm here to honestly speak of my doubts in Christianity in the spirit of open mindedness and in the hope that I learn something new.
While I am no longer a Christian myself, I am not hostile to Christianity. I simple cannot bring myself to believe in it any longer.
With that said, here is why I don't believe that Jesus is God. If you can spot a flaw in my thinking, and you think telling me about it will restore my faith in Jesus, then please do. Being a Christian again would make my life much easier
I don't believe that Jesus is God, essentially, because there is no proof that Jesus is really God, as opposed to Allah, Vishnu, Zoroaster, Zeus, etc. After I've told you that I don't believe that Jesus is God can be proven, you can only respond in one of two ways:
1) That Jesus' divinity cannot be proven, but that shouldn't matter because one should believe in Jesus as a matter of faith (i.e., in absence of proof).
OR
2) By telling me that, in fact, Jesus is God and it can be proven through historical, scientific, archaeological, etc. evidence.
Here is my response to (1):
If there is no proof which separates the real God from the fakes, and I am instead to simply take a leap of faith, then why should I pick Jesus?
If I'm essentially to believe...well, just because...then why would I pick Jesus? Why don't I just put up the name of every deity on my wall which humans have ever believed in and throw darts? After all, less than 1/3 of humans on Earth believe that Jesus is God. The rest believe in a collection of other Gods, so it's not as if picking a which God is real is an easy thing to do-- plenty of smart people believe just as firmly as Christians do that Jesus is not real.
In other words, if you say that believing in Jesus is a matter of faith, not proof, then I can't accept that reasoning because there is nothing stopping me from becoming a Muslim instead of a Christian. I might as well throw darts.
Here is my response to (2):
While some argue there is proof that Jesus is God, I am not in a position to properly evaluate that proof.
No one human is a historian, archaeologist, logician, linguist, theologian, physicist, biologist, astronomer or expert in every field which purports to prove that Jesus is God. Therefore, we have to take the advice of experts in these fields to weigh the supposed evidence that Jesus is God. And because the experts in all of these fields cannot agree on whether Jesus is God, how am I supposed to know what, if anything, the evidence proves? I cannot know, and therefore even if there is proof, it's beyond me to understand it.
The combination of these two answers constitutes my strongest reason for not believing in Jesus-- that Jesus' existence cannot be proven because no human is an expert in enough fields to evaluate the proof if there is any; and if people cannot decide which the real god is based on proof, then humans are essentially making an arbitrary choice. God, therefore, has put humans into an impossible situation where they will likely go to hell based on chance!
This would make Jesus, if he is real, a very sadistic, cruel being. He has essentially put humans in a room with a gun to their head, told them to pick a number between 1-100 (pick a religion among many), and if the human guesses the wrong one, he will blow their head off (send them to hell forever)!
What kind of sadistic God would dream up such a scheme? What kind of loving father would play Russian roulette with his kids?
The end result is either that this situation is so absurd that it cannot be true, or Jesus is a cruel, sadistic God who will likely torture me no matter what I do.
Hello,
What I believe,; is that you are struggling because, you WANT something from the Lord, you haven't got . . . and if you had it
you'd be full of FAITH . . .What is it
???Happy Easter
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