This is why I don't believe Jesus is God...please tell me where I'm wrong

[daviedave]

First, let me say I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I'm here to honestly speak of my doubts in Christianity in the spirit of open mindedness and in the hope that I learn something new.

While I am no longer a Christian myself, I am not hostile to Christianity. I simple cannot bring myself to believe in it any longer.

With that said, here is why I don't believe that Jesus is God. If you can spot a flaw in my thinking, and you think telling me about it will restore my faith in Jesus, then please do. Being a Christian again would make my life much easier :

I don't believe that Jesus is God, essentially, because there is no proof that Jesus is really God, as opposed to Allah, Vishnu, Zoroaster, Zeus, etc. After I've told you that I don't believe that Jesus is God can be proven, you can only respond in one of two ways:

1) That Jesus' divinity cannot be proven, but that shouldn't matter because one should believe in Jesus as a matter of faith (i.e., in absence of proof).

OR

2) By telling me that, in fact, Jesus is God and it can be proven through historical, scientific, archaeological, etc. evidence.

Here is my response to (1):

If there is no proof which separates the real God from the fakes, and I am instead to simply take a leap of faith, then why should I pick Jesus?

If I'm essentially to believe...well, just because...then why would I pick Jesus? Why don't I just put up the name of every deity on my wall which humans have ever believed in and throw darts? After all, less than 1/3 of humans on Earth believe that Jesus is God. The rest believe in a collection of other Gods, so it's not as if picking a which God is real is an easy thing to do-- plenty of smart people believe just as firmly as Christians do that Jesus is not real.

In other words, if you say that believing in Jesus is a matter of faith, not proof, then I can't accept that reasoning because there is nothing stopping me from becoming a Muslim instead of a Christian. I might as well throw darts.

Here is my response to (2):

While some argue there is proof that Jesus is God, I am not in a position to properly evaluate that proof.

No one human is a historian, archaeologist, logician, linguist, theologian, physicist, biologist, astronomer or expert in every field which purports to prove that Jesus is God. Therefore, we have to take the advice of experts in these fields to weigh the supposed evidence that Jesus is God. And because the experts in all of these fields cannot agree on whether Jesus is God, how am I supposed to know what, if anything, the evidence proves? I cannot know, and therefore even if there is proof, it's beyond me to understand it.

The combination of these two answers constitutes my strongest reason for not believing in Jesus-- that Jesus' existence cannot be proven because no human is an expert in enough fields to evaluate the proof if there is any; and if people cannot decide which the real god is based on proof, then humans are essentially making an arbitrary choice. God, therefore, has put humans into an impossible situation where they will likely go to hell based on chance!

This would make Jesus, if he is real, a very sadistic, cruel being. He has essentially put humans in a room with a gun to their head, told them to pick a number between 1-100 (pick a religion among many), and if the human guesses the wrong one, he will blow their head off (send them to hell forever)!

What kind of sadistic God would dream up such a scheme? What kind of loving father would play Russian roulette with his kids?

The end result is either that this situation is so absurd that it cannot be true, or Jesus is a cruel, sadistic God who will likely torture me no matter what I do.

 

[Coder]

First, let me say I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I'm here to honestly speak of my doubts in Christianity in the spirit of open mindedness and in the hope that I learn something new.

While I am no longer a Christian myself, I am not hostile to Christianity. I simple cannot bring myself to believe in it any longer.

With that said, here is why I don't believe that Jesus is God. If you can spot a flaw in my thinking, and you think telling me about it will restore my faith in Jesus, then please do. Being a Christian again would make my life much easier :

I don't believe that Jesus is God, essentially, because there is no proof that Jesus is really God, as opposed to Allah, Vishnu, Zoroaster, Zeus, etc. After I've told you that I don't believe that Jesus is God can be proven, you can only respond in one of two ways:

1) That Jesus' divinity cannot be proven, but that shouldn't matter because one should believe in Jesus as a matter of faith (i.e., in absence of proof).

OR

2) By telling me that, in fact, Jesus is God and it can be proven through historical, scientific, archaeological, etc. evidence.

Here is my response to (1):

If there is no proof which separates the real God from the fakes, and I am instead to simply take a leap of faith, then why should I pick Jesus?

If I'm essentially to believe...well, just because...then why would I pick Jesus? Why don't I just put up the name of every deity on my wall which humans have ever believed in and throw darts? After all, less than 1/3 of humans on Earth believe that Jesus is God. The rest believe in a collection of other Gods, so it's not as if picking a which God is real is an easy thing to do-- plenty of smart people believe just as firmly as Christians do that Jesus is not real.

In other words, if you say that believing in Jesus is a matter of faith, not proof, then I can't accept that reasoning because there is nothing stopping me from becoming a Muslim instead of a Christian. I might as well throw darts.

Here is my response to (2):

While some argue there is proof that Jesus is God, I am not in a position to properly evaluate that proof.

No one human is a historian, archaeologist, logician, linguist, theologian, physicist, biologist, astronomer or expert in every field which purports to prove that Jesus is God. Therefore, we have to take the advice of experts in these fields to weigh the supposed evidence that Jesus is God. And because the experts in all of these fields cannot agree on whether Jesus is God, how am I supposed to know what, if anything, the evidence proves? I cannot know, and therefore even if there is proof, it's beyond me to understand it.

The combination of these two answers constitutes my strongest reason for not believing in Jesus-- that Jesus' existence cannot be proven because no human is an expert in enough fields to evaluate the proof if there is any; and if people cannot decide which the real god is based on proof, then humans are essentially making an arbitrary choice. God, therefore, has put humans into an impossible situation where they will likely go to hell based on chance!

This would make Jesus, if he is real, a very sadistic, cruel being. He has essentially put humans in a room with a gun to their head, told them to pick a number between 1-100 (pick a religion among many), and if the human guesses the wrong one, he will blow their head off (send them to hell forever)!

What kind of sadistic God would dream up such a scheme? What kind of loving father would play Russian roulette with his kids?

The end result is either that this situation is so absurd that it cannot be true, or Jesus is a cruel, sadistic God who will likely torture me no matter what I do.

Hello Daviedave:

I cannot certainly answer all of your questions. I do appreciate you taking the time to pose these questions.

As to God\Jesus putting us in a room with a gun to our heads forcing us to choose amongst 100 "gods"-- this is not true, in my opinion. These other "gods" are man-made, not God-ordained. We have the free will to choose Jesus, Buddha, Allah, or none of the above. When the truth is presented as it is we are given the knowledge and light to choose. If we choose "wrong" that is our choice, but it is not as if we have not been given the info and chance to make our own decision.

Once again, as hard as it is to accept and understand at times, it comes back to Faith, something fueled, strengthened, and given by the Holy Spirit.

Kind Regards,
Matty

 

[HypnoToad]

Well, I think part of the problem is your demand of "proof". Most things we think of as "proven" are only "very likely", but rarely, if ever, 100% "proven".

Science, for example, can not "prove" anything that's accepted as true - it can only disprove incorrect theories. It can provide evidence as to what's correct, but not "prove" it.

Take something that is generally accepted as 100% "proven" to be true - George Washington really existed. You can not prove that's true. You can present tons of evidence, but you can't prove it.

I also have a question - you seem to swap "Jesus existing" with "Jesus being God". Are you questioning both of those, or just the "being God" part?

 

[daviedave]

These other "gods" are man-made, not God-ordained. We have the free will to choose Jesus, Buddha, Allah, or none of the above. When the truth is presented as it is we are given the knowledge and light to choose.

There are millions of Muslims, for example, that FEEL just as strongly as you do that Jesus is NOT the real God. If you ask them to expand, they will say it's obvious if you open your heart and soul to Allah.

If I ask a Muslim tomorrow how I know that Allah is really God and Muhammad is his prophet, and he responds that Allah will tell me, and it's up to me whether I want to listen, what am I supposed to do?

There are millions of devout Muslims and Jews who think it's crystal clear that Jesus is not God, and you're using your free will to believe in a man-made God.

How is a simple man like myself supposed to sort this all out? And more importantly, why would God put me in such an impossible situation where I will go to hell if I pick door A instead of door B?

 

[Digit]

Hi Daviedave.

I can see your point, as yes it's a tricky one. I said in another thread a while ago that I find the faith icon for Atheists very fitting, (it's a little image of a human head with the brain highlighted) because they do only think with logical theories and evidence. I can see you aren't currently in that area, but are thinking along those lines a little with your first point.

So, let us reason.

First up, something one of the Atheists said which hit the nail on the head, is that the only thing he wouldn't leave up to logic, reason and so on - is love. What is Christianity? It's love. It's a loving relationship with our father, God. I don't want to harp on about that, as you already have a stance and I am by no means boxing you into the Atheist corner, however I found that rather profound, that this person would not use logic to dictate love, yet would not love God because of a lack of logical thought that led him to God...

So first, you need faith. Without faith, without that little bit of desire to take the first step even though you feel it's totally impossible, you have nothing. You have a cold, empty world, where people live their lives the way they want, and eventually die for nothing. Wow, what a place. It still shocks me that people want to believe that.

But the picture you paint is a very real threat, somewhere you have been convinced that God is almost toying with you, he's given you an unsolvable puzzle, and is sitting in Heaven laughing at you as you battle to work it out. Actually, I would say that is Satan who has done that. God has given you everything you need. There are historical records of Jesus both inside and outside the Bible. There are fulfilled prophecies. There is the Bible, the single most popular book in the entire world, which has lasted over 2000 years without even one single error.

Aaaaaah... but wait, isn't that all open to interpretation? I mean, I am a Christian so I believe it to be so, non-believers with a host of translation errors or passages taken out of context, believe otherwise. In fact look, I am already biased based on that last sentence. What a mess we have ourselves in. Do you see what Satan is doing? He is confusing people to the point of inaction. Sitting on the fence and not picking a side, is as deadly as choosing incorrectly. The Bible says that sin clouds the mind, it's the weapon of Satan, you believe you are thinking clearly, yet you have lost faith, and without faith there is room for sin. No matter how small, it grows.

I don't want to write out my reasons again, so here, have a read. This is a post of mine in another thread. It covers why I believe, without researching thousands of papers and taking things purely on faith like you have outlined above.

I hope that helps, and I didn't end up rambling too much. I battle to put things into words sometimes, and the feeling is so strong it's like it's just hidden under the skin.

Digit

 

[daviedave]

Well, I think part of the problem is your demand of "proof". Most things we think of as "proven" are only "very likely", but rarely, if ever, 100% "proven".

Yes, that's true. I'd be content to believe in Jesus if I could only be convinced that it's more likely than not he's really God. I should have said "persuasive evidence by a preponderance that he's God" rather than "proof."

But to back up for a second, why shouldn't I demand proof? It is certainly within God's power to prove, without a doubt, who he is. He could do a monthly or yearly demonstration where he parts the Atlantic Ocean and writes "Jesus is God" in dead fish, and then restores everything to normal in 5 seconds. Naturally, this wouldn't 100% prove he's God, but it'd be good enough for me!

Anyway, the point is that if Jesus could prove he's real, but chooses not to, and instead only leaves me vague, conflicting evidence to wrestle with, isn't that kind of sadistic of him?

I also have a question - you seem to swap "Jesus existing" with "Jesus being God". Are you questioning both of those, or just the "being God" part?

No, I'm willing to accept that a guy named Jesus really existed. I just question whether he was really the son of the creator of the universe.

 

[daviedave]

Do you see what Satan is doing? He is confusing people to the point of inaction. Sitting on the fence and not picking a side, is as deadly as choosing incorrectly. The Bible says that sin clouds the mind, it's the weapon of Satan, you believe you are thinking clearly, yet you have lost faith, and without faith there is room for sin. No matter how small, it grows.

Okay, that's fine...I'm willing to accept that Satan is clouding my mind as to who the real God is, but that still doesn't get me any closer to who the real God is!

Everyone seems to think they know who the real god is, and everyone else is either choosing to believe in the wrong god or deluded by Satan.

Bottom line...it's impossible for me to sort it all out, and if God exists, he's refusing to sort it out to...so what am I supposed to do?

 

[Coder]

Patience is necessary when "sorting things out" of this nature. I was an Atheist, a Pagan, a Jew over many years until God revealed to my heart the correct path-- Jesus. Will this happen for you in this manner? Who is to say. Whatever happens will be persoanlized for your senses and sensibilities.

God is infinite, perfect, and timeless; he knows us better than we know ourselves.

With thought, prayer, study, time, and patience, I believe that the Father, God, shall reveal to you the truth in a manner and method personalized for you. He can win your heart and, in truth, you do not have to do a thing. You have initiated the conversation and thoughts already, now; do continue but please do give God a chance to respond in his own way.

I think this is great that you are searching and asking questions here; although we do not have total answers, you will find the answers in your heart which I am confident that you will.

Best regards,
Matty

 

[Digit]

No, I'm willing to accept that a guy named Jesus really existed. I just question whether he was really the son of the creator of the universe.

Oooh! Ok, well that's the first hurdle out of the way. That fact alone normally takes someone pages to get past. I guess the second is do you understand why Jesus came to Earth in the first place?

Thirdly, may I ask if you find the Bible to be a flawed contradictory book, or does it speak truly to you? I'm not so much talking about do you believe in the miracles and so on, but do you just feel that the lessons and history within, are accurate and without flaw?

Thanks for responding!

Cheers,
Digit

 

[Digit]

Okay, that's fine...I'm willing to accept that Satan is clouding my mind as to who the real God is, but that still doesn't get me any closer to who the real God is!

Everyone seems to think they know who the real god is, and everyone else is either choosing to believe in the wrong god or deluded by Satan.

Bottom line...it's impossible for me to sort it all out, and if God exists, he's refusing to sort it out to...so what am I supposed to do?

Ok I understand that. In hindsight, I probably should have left that out. My apologies, it's really hard to seperate these things and disengage the spiritual mindset sometimes. Sorry if that sort of turned you off the idea even more.

I think I can help solve one issue though. Sometimes it's necessary to understand that human logic cannot explain Godly reasons for doing things. I mean, if we had to think up a way of organisms reproducing, do you think we would all come up with an accurate picture of sex? Well, I can answer that and say no, as if you look around the world, there are millions of creatures with very different repductive methods and parenting skills. Firstly, if I designed humans, I would put the male prostate gland nearer the outside of the body...

But anyhow, that was more to illustrate the point that from out perspective, some things don't make sense to us. Which prompts all the, "If God is love, why is there so much suffering?" threads and so on.

Rapidly moving on though, one issue is for you, is that God could come down, say, "Hey little dude, I'm God, clean your act up or else! *stern look*" and that would sort it out for you. Some time ago, 2000 years odd, God did just that. According to the records in the Bible, people didn't believe him then. There are several instances where He reasoned with them.

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Like so. Every age will have doubters. To the people of 2000 years back, taking what was said there, must have seemed amazing. Yet to us it's pretty common knowledge that atoms comprise everything.

I am reminded of how much evidence means to some people. For example, there is really strong evidence, that smoking causes all sorts of diseases and gives you a really good shot at getting cancer. Yet people still do it. Either they don't care, or they don't believe it enough to change their ways. There is an addiction there, just like any sin has a very real addiction. Addiction to money that causes greed, addiction to sex that causes lust, addiction to food that causes gluttony. Smoking isn't sinful (well... that depends who you ask I guess) but it's effects and that parallel drawn between evidence and inaction are very true I feel.

Hope that helps some.

Digit.

 

[MikeMcK]

I know that you say you used to be a Christian, but you seem to have some really strange and false ideas about what Christianity teaches.

Being a Christian again would make my life much easier

Is that why you want to be a Christian? To make your life easier?

Do you think Christians in China or Sudan would say that being a Christian has made their lives easier or harder?

2) By telling me that, in fact, Jesus is God and it can be proven through historical, scientific, archaeological, etc. evidence.

Jackpot!

However, you forgot manuscript and prophetic evidence.

While some argue there is proof that Jesus is God, I am not in a position to properly evaluate that proof.

I see. You're smart enough to come to the conclusion that Jesus is not God, but not smart enough to come to the concluion that He is God?

Therefore, we have to take the advice of experts in these fields to weigh the supposed evidence that Jesus is God. And because the experts in all of these fields cannot agree on whether Jesus is God, how am I supposed to know what, if anything, the evidence proves? I cannot know, and therefore even if there is proof, it's beyond me to understand it.

When I was in school, thirty years ago, we were told that there would be a global ice age that would wipe out all life as we know it.

Now, we're being told that there will be global warming that will flood the planet and wipe out all life as we know it.

Virtually every day, we're told that something that doctors encouraged us to eat for good health is now killing us.

One hundred years ago, we were told that cocaine helped to stop paranoia. Opium was given to mental patients.

We now know that cocaine doesn't really stop paranoia, but causes paranoia. How many people have ended up in mental institutions because of drug use?

"Experts" dis agree about a lot of things. That doesn't make the facts wrong, it just means that the experts disagree.

The combination of these two answers constitutes my strongest reason for not believing in Jesus-- that Jesus' existence cannot be proven because no human is an expert in enough fields to evaluate the proof if there is any

Do you believe that George Washington was the president of the United States?

and if people cannot decide which the real god is based on proof, then humans are essentially making an arbitrary choice. God, therefore, has put humans into an impossible situation where they will likely go to hell based on chance!

I won't lie to you. We can't "prove" Jesus is God in the way that you mean.

However, we can examine the evidence and see that it leaves no room for doubt that Jesus is God.

The end result is either that this situation is so absurd that it cannot be true, or Jesus is a cruel, sadistic God who will likely torture me no matter what I do.

There is also a third option: that you've misunderstood what Christianity teaches.

You make it sound as though there's a contest to see who believes in Jesus, and the winner gets to go to Heaven.

That's isn't what Christianity teaches at all, nor is it what Jesus taught.

If you have a Bible, would you please take some time out of your busy schedule and read Romans 5-7?

I believe this would clear up some misconceptions you have.

 

[Merlin]

That Jesus is God is well documented in the Bible.
It also documents the proof, miracles as told by four of the many witnesses.

 

[daviedave]

I know that you say you used to be a Christian, but you seem to have some really strange and false ideas about what Christianity teaches.

Well, it seems not even Christians can agree on what Christianity teaches, so saying I'm misguided about what Christianity teaches doesn't really clear anything up.

Is that why you want to be a Christian? To make your life easier?

Yes, of course. It's obvious that having a personal relationship with God and knowing that your eternal salvation is secure would make one's life easier. And if I need to be a Christian to have and know those things, then of course I want my life to be easier.

Do you think Christians in China or Sudan would say that being a Christian has made their lives easier or harder?

Easier and harder. Perhaps harder in terms of day to day problems, but ultimately easier because they can go to bed at night and die knowing everything will be okay. Plenty of people would find dying without God harder than living a persecuted life with God.

I see. You're smart enough to come to the conclusion that Jesus is not God, but not smart enough to come to the concluion that He is God?

I haven't come to the conclusion that Jesus is not God. I just haven't been convinced that he is. There is a very big difference between them. I'm not making an affirmative statement of fact about Jesus. I'm simply saying I don't have enough information or ability to say whether or not he is God...just like I cannot say whether Allah is really God and Mohamed is his prophet.

To put things more simply...if picking the right God were a multiple choice question, you seem to think I've filled in a (wrong) answer, whereas I've actually not filled in anything at all.

When I was in school, thirty years ago, we were told that there would be a global ice age that would wipe out all life as we know it.

Now, we're being told that there will be global warming that will flood the planet and wipe out all life as we know it.

Virtually every day, we're told that something that doctors encouraged us to eat for good health is now killing us.

One hundred years ago, we were told that cocaine helped to stop paranoia. Opium was given to mental patients.

We now know that cocaine doesn't really stop paranoia, but causes paranoia. How many people have ended up in mental institutions because of drug use?

"Experts" dis agree about a lot of things. That doesn't make the facts wrong, it just means that the experts disagree.

You and I seem to agree on this-- that the experts do not agree on whether Jesus is really God. However, we disagree in our response to that disagreement. I simply refrain from having an opinion in the face of conflicting experts. You instead just pick a side anyway and/or choose to try to be an expert yourself.

That Jesus is God is not a fact on which experts disagree. The facts are a question of history, science, etc., and then from those facts the experts have formed their opinions.

Do you believe that George Washington was the president of the United States?

Yes, because there is no real disagreement among reputable historians that he was president. There is, however, plenty of disagreement among experts in nearly every field that Jesus is God.

I won't lie to you. We can't "prove" Jesus is God in the way that you mean.

However, we can examine the evidence and see that it leaves no room for doubt that Jesus is God.

If there really was "no room for doubt," then we wouldn't have less than 1/3 of humans believing that Jesus is God and fighting about it for thousands of years.

I'm sure you'll say that, nonetheless, there is evidence beyond a doubt, and people are just choosing to deny God. But there are, for example, Muslims who say the exact same thing. Type "proof in quran" into Google for a nice sample.

Isn't thousands of years of disagreement by people outside and inside Christianity about Jesus proof, in itself, that there is MUCH doubt surrounding whether Jesus is God?

There is also a third option: that you've misunderstood what Christianity teaches.

Again, not even Christians can agree on what Christianity teaches, so that doesn't get us anywhere.

You make it sound as though there's a contest to see who believes in Jesus, and the winner gets to go to Heaven.

That's isn't what Christianity teaches at all, nor is it what Jesus taught.

I think a very large portion of Christians would agree that you're not going to heaven unless you believe in Jesus, right? And in order to believe in Jesus, you can't believe in other Gods, right? And there are many other Gods to choose from, right? And many of those Gods also say if you don't choose them, you go to hell, right?

So call it a contest or whatever you want, but there are lots of options to choose from, and all say if you don't choose them, you go to hell. I'm not saying this is the totality of Christianity, but it is undeniably a part of it.

If you have a Bible, would you please take some time out of your busy schedule and read Romans 5-7?

I believe this would clear up some misconceptions you have.

Sure

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

I have no idea what this means. Honestly, it's not clear at all on its face. Is God coming out with cliff notes? Or do we all have to study theology and seek expert advice to understand his message?

 

[Lehr]

I just want to say one little thing..

Put yourself in the shoes of someone 2000 years ago, and jesus is right infront of you and you see him raise a person from the dead and you are 100% convinced that he is god's son. How would you prove what you saw? by writing down what you have seen... or maybe by oral teaching

I don't know if this helps, but its one way i like to put it.

 

[Digit]

Lehr has a good point.

In addition, Daviedave has a truth we cannoy deny, which is that as Christians, we hardly provide a united front, at least on the surface.

However I think the message is the same for all Christians, that of love. There are two main commandments and teachings. Love God, and love each other as yourself. Everything else is added on top of that as rules and guidelines for doing those things and building on them.

I think there is confusion here, in what Christians say about God, and what the Bible says about God. Often people will ask a Christian something, and if they don't know, the person asking takes it as a flaw in Christianity on the whole. We reflect our religion. Whereas the true way to perceive it and learn about it, is through what God has said. Or in your case, the person claiming He is God.

No other religion has a central figure that points to itself and says I am the way. Everyone other religion points to a mystical person. Shiva, Budda and so on. None of them has a personal saviour like Christianity, who came to Earth and said the things Jesus has, whilst all the while claiming that He is our God. There is the difference between Christianity and the other religions. Jesus pointed to Himself and said He can forgive sins. The way to the Father is through Him and Him alone.

I had a question earlier that you didn't answer, which was do you know why Jesus died? Apart from the usual answer of, 'For our sins.' that doesn't say why, just what for. As I think that's the next step in believing that He is God.

I would like it if you could reply to this and the other post I put up. Failing that, if things are getting too tricky to manage here with lots of to-froing, send me a PM. My Inbox is always open... ok, that sounded dirty... >_>

Cheers!
Digit

P.S. Try not to focus on what everyone else is saying, and focus on what the Bible says, as that's where a relationship will start, that and some good Christian friends. The critics, skeptics, cynics and all their supporters will confuse and confound you with as many different sides, versions and counter-arguments as possible. At the end of the day though, you don't answer to them, and they don't care about you.

 

[MikeMcK]

Well, it seems not even Christians can agree on what Christianity teaches, so saying I'm misguided about what Christianity teaches doesn't really clear anything up.

First of all, Christianity is united on the essential doctrines.

Second, we're not talking about what others believe, we're talking about what you say you believe here in this thread.

I haven't come to the conclusion that Jesus is not God.

OK. Just to recap...

First, let me say I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I'm here to honestly speak of my doubts in Christianity in the spirit of open mindedness and in the hope that I learn something new.

While I am no longer a Christian myself, I am not hostile to Christianity. I simple cannot bring myself to believe in it any longer.

With that said, here is why I don't believe that Jesus is God.

So, do you believe that Jesus is God or do you not believe that Jesus is God?

That Jesus is God is not a fact on which experts disagree. The facts are a question of history, science, etc., and then from those facts the experts have formed their opinions.

As Jesus cannot be replicated in a controlled environment, Jesus is not subject to scientific scrutiny.

Historical scrutiny, however, is overwhelming in it's declaration that Jesus is God.

Yes, because there is no real disagreement among reputable historians that he was president.

How do you know they're telling the truth? How do you know that it isn't just a conspiracy to make you believe that he was president, so that you'll believe in him as an historical figure.

I mean, all of the accounts of his presidency were written after the fact and most of them were written many years, even decades, after the fact.

And what about the fact that many historians don't agree about the details of his alleged presidency?

If there really was "no room for doubt," then we wouldn't have less than 1/3 of humans believing that Jesus is God and fighting about it for thousands of years.

Actually, we would and since you say that you were a Christian, I'm surprised that you don't know that the Bible adddresses this in John 3:18-21.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Even if men were willing to acknowledge intellectually that Jesus is God, they would still deny it because to confess it would be to confess that they face His judgement.

I'm sure you'll say that, nonetheless, there is evidence beyond a doubt, and people are just choosing to deny God.

That's right.

But there are, for example, Muslims who say the exact same thing. Type "proof in quran" into Google for a nice sample.

Yes there are. However, that's irrelevan to the discussion.

Isn't thousands of years of disagreement by people outside and inside Christianity about Jesus proof, in itself, that there is MUCH doubt surrounding whether Jesus is God?

No Christian has ever denied that Jesus is God. If they did, then they weren't a Christian because affirming the deity of Christ is a pre-req to be a Christian.

As for those outside of Christianity, how would they know? How many of them have actually taken the time to study the scriptures for themselves? If the atheists and mockers here on RCF are any indication, not many at all.

Again, not even Christians can agree on what Christianity teaches, so that doesn't get us anywhere.

OK. Prove it. Name for me two Christian denominations that disagree on any of the essential doctrines of Christianity.

I think a very large portion of Christians would agree that you're not going to heaven unless you believe in Jesus, right?

I believe in Walt Disney. That doesn't mean I'm going to get into the Magic Kingdom.

And many of those Gods also say if you don't choose them, you go to hell, right?

No. The vast, vast majority of religions don't even believe in Hell.

So call it a contest or whatever you want, but there are lots of options to choose from, and all say if you don't choose them, you go to hell. I'm not saying this is the totality of Christianity, but it is undeniably a part of it.

And the Bible would disagree with you.

I have no idea what this means. Honestly, it's not clear at all on its face. Is God coming out with cliff notes? Or do we all have to study theology and seek expert advice to understand his message?

It would help if you didn't post them verses out of context.

Now, did you read 5-7? Or just a couple of verses?

 

[gracealone]

Hi,
If Jesus is not God, if He didn't come to die on the cross in order to make a way for mankind to be reconciled to God, then all of mankind is without hope.
Jesus is the one who made the claims of diety, he's the one who said, "I AM ,( the Hebrew Name for God), the Way the Truth and the Life and no man comes unto the Father except by Me".
He made claims of being the Messiah, of being the one sent into the world - in order that "the world through Him might be saved". He claimed to be able to forgive sins, not just things done unto Him but the types of things where folk have offended one another. He just walks up and claims to be the one who can absolve people of sins. He makes some really amazing statements like, "Before Abraham was , I AM. These statements and many more affirming His own opinion of His Diety were recorded by eyewitness testimony. And here's a question for you, Why? was He crucified, what was the historical record concerning the charge against Him? A Crime of some sort? No it was those very claims of being I AM that caused the Sanhedrin to ask Pilate the Roman governor to Crucify Him.
So here are your choices..
Is He a Liar? Is He a Lunatic? or is He Lord?
Examine the scriptures and pick one. There is really no middle ground on this issue.
I choose Lord?
What about you? He is asking just as He asked Peter?
"Whom do you say that I am?" That is what He is wanting to know.
Please read - if you are really searching to know the truth. - C. S. Lewis - Mere Christianity
Remember also that intent is prior to content. If your will and your intention is to disbelieve than it is pointless to go on any further. But if you are honestly seeking you will find Him.
Please... don't stop searching and if you dare, ask Him to reveal Himself to you. But be assured of this,
He is not a "Tame Lion". You can't cage Him and make Him fit your idea of God. He is the Lord.
Prayers for you as you seek!!

 

[Lehr]

People need to understand that people back then were not stupid, and don't say "they believed in magicians and bla bla bla" because that was only a few... Now i want all of you to think about this, if jesus was lieing why would suffer all that torcher and pain for a lie? ok now ask yourself this, if the desciples of jesus didn't believe jesus was the son of god then why would all 12 of them suffer that horrible death and not confess that all of it was fake?

Trust me people, when you are being torchered and told that if you but say that your religion is fake or something like that then your pain would stop, you would spill it like beans if it was truely a lie.

something to think about

 

[wiggbuggie]

the trinity is a complex topic but maybe this will shed some light:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-pray-God.html

bascily God the father,son, and holy spirit coexisted as one being God way before the earth was created God is after all infinant and Jesus is God. Like the bible states God made the earth through Jesus and thw word was always their.

 

[now_am_found]

daviedave, I would just like to say that you should not rely on us mortals to convince yourself that Jesus is God or that God exists. You must ask God.

Tell him that you are unsure and what you don't understand. Ask that He reveal Himself to you. We cannot convince you that the word of God is true. Only He can do that.

And He is waiting for you to ask him. He can only reveal Himself to you if you ask him to. But He wants you to. God cannot reveal Himself to those that do not ask, because we have been cut off from God and that is why it is only through Christ that we can be saved. You must be willing to ask, to listen, to receive.