This is really making me angry!

[benedictaoo]

No offense intended, but this is the one thing that makes me not consider the Catholic church anymore. I would love to become Catholic, I visit a beautiful abbey several times a week. But, at this point I know I will never become Catholic because of this: It has shown the church authority is corrupt.

The men maybe.. it's not like we all know becuase they aren't very transparent.

However, like Peter said, where else are we going to go? As fallen as the men in the Church are/ have been/ will be again in the future, we do have great Saints we can look up to who God will always raise up for us in every generation and we have Christ present in the Eucharist that no creepy priest can ever ruin... and we have Christ's promise that this evil will never prevail...

so, separate the men from their office. It's the office that is infallible when teaching us the faith that had been since delivered 2000 years ago. They are not deciding anything, but merely teaching us what always was.

So we are protected form them ever teaching us a theological error or teaching us immorality.

Now we are not guaranteed they will all be Saints and practice what is preached, it's just that can not officially preach, declare a error or something immoral as an official truth.

 

[tadoflamb]

Well, in spite of what has been going on in the Church for some reason I converted seven years in spite of new child abuse allegations showing up in the paper and my diocese subsequently filing bankruptcy because of it.

So, what would make someone convert to Catholicism in spite of it's record?

Personally, I'm glad all this is coming to light. Our bishop has managed to get our diocese through the scandal and he did it by being honest about the abuses and sincere in his attempt to reconcile with and compensate the victims. Even the lawyers were happy with the Church.

Simply put, this is the gates of hell rising against the Church. We know abuses go on in other institutions, but it's the Catholic Church that get all the publicity. There are other reasons for this, of course. For one, when the Catholic Church makes the claims it does about our clergy and their authority then of course it is going to be more scandalous than when your average joe commits the same crime. In a way, it's seems flattering that the world is more concerned about Catholic boys and girls than other boys and girls, however I don't think this is fair. Light needs to be shone upon and abuses remedied wherever they occur. As a Catholic active in the Church, I'm playing my own role in this. Before I was allowed to work with children or vulnerable adults I had to get fingerprinted and pass a background check. Also, my diocese has guidelines which I must acknowledge I have read every year. If their is any abuse going on in my parish, I would be very surprised to hear about it. Also, and I don't think this follows the guidelines, if I were every to become aware of abuse, I would call the cops first and tell the Church next.

As saddening, embarrassing and infuriating these scandals and subsequent cover ups are, I've still got no inclination to leave the Catholic Church. Instead I want to continue to be part of the solution.

 

[benedictaoo]

Because we have faith, we shouldn't want and expect the guilty to go to jail? I don't get it. It might be different if the laity knew that the priests involved would never do parish work again and would be secluded and cared for by the Church.

======================
I just moved from the Boston, MA area where we lived through this for several years. One asks what we should expect the Church beyond apologizing and forgiving.

Well, perhaps the pattern of what happened in the Boston area will be repeated. Priests will be moved from parish work to running boy's camps. The priests who come forward to their superiors will be told to pray about their issues. The cardinal will be promoted into a top job at the Vatican. His assistant will be made bishop in a neighboring diocese.

In the end, how many bishops were removed for their many, many decisions in assigning of priests, dealing with the issues, and in their leadership over the seminaries?
I apologize if I have offended and have not simply listened to the Holy Father whose offices did worse than nothing to help us. And yes, it was and is the laity who paid and their children. And the priests, both those involved and those who were not, will never be the same.

How can we argue with that? I can't... I mean we have to at some point forgive the Church and let it go because obviously they are going to do what ever it is they want to do and unless they would like to share the wisdom with us, we will all be confused and disenchanted...

so they will be off our hook, however that does not mean they will be off God's.

 

[benedictaoo]

This is one of the reasons I am upset. I shouldn't have to write a letter about this. These are the leaders of our church. They are supposed to be teaching about morality and leading by example.

Yes, we screw up. Everyone does and I can accept that and forgive them. But that does NOT mean that they should get moved to the Vatican and live in a life of comfort when they just DAMAGED a child.

And it shouldn't take a letter! Those in charge should take care of the problem when and if it happens. These guys should be in jail!

Do you realize that if the leaders had done what they should have done (turned these guys in) then this wouldn't be such a big deal? It would still be horrible for those children, but justice would be done by it.

At least if they had been turned in, I could say "yeah, people make mistakes, we're all just human." But I can't just say that. This goes beyond people making mistakes. This is the church purposely covering up these crimes and protecting child molesters!

Instead, it is our church that is covering up for these guys. If you do that, you are just as bad as the guy that did it.

We need some decisive leadership here. An apology isn't going to cut it. If someone was part of all of this, they need to get the boot.

And to just open up a legal (becuase they got sued) fund where the abused can go pick up a check for the abuse is just sicking.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

May the Lord have mercy on all those affected!

 

[frenchdefense]

I am appalled by some of the Catholics' behavior in this thread. Are you Christians or not? Honor your Mother the Church and your father the Pope!

Yeah, Euchy, I'm a Christian and because I am I believe certain things:

1) You don't abuse kids.
2) You don't have sexual relations with kids.
3) You don't take advantage of people who depend on your kindness and charity
4) You don't cover for those who do.
5) You man up and take responsibility for your actions when you do wrong and accept any punishment you have coming.
6) You don't expect that once your character has been shown be suspect that you get to keep both your reputation and authority just because you're, like, you.
7) I have two people I should call father: A 75 years old guy who resembles Henry Kissinger and God and neither of them is the Pope.
8) I should defend the Church from all those who attach her whether from without and within regardless of who they are.
9) You call out people who are sinning for their own good.
10) You don't blindly follow any person who comes along with a good line of pious rap just because its pious rap.

 

[princess_ballet]

I am appalled by some of the Catholics' behavior in this thread. Are you Christians or not? Honor your Mother the Church and your father the Pope!

So you condone the molestation of children? And you are willing to support that and obey someone that does that? That is ok with you?

You think it is ok for children to be hurt? How can you justify that? (Not that you will, because you seem to just be telling us all how horrible we are.)

If that is the case then I don't think you should be throwing stones.

No offense intended, but this is the one thing that makes me not consider the Catholic church anymore. I would love to become Catholic, I visit a beautiful abbey several times a week. But, at this point I know I will never become Catholic because of this: It has shown the church authority is corrupt.

I in no way want to leave the church, just to be clear. I am just very, very disappointed in our leadership right now.

Simply put, this is the gates of hell rising against the Church. We know abuses go on in other institutions, but it's the Catholic Church that get all the publicity. There are other reasons for this, of course. For one, when the Catholic Church makes the claims it does about our clergy and their authority then of course it is going to be more scandalous than when your average joe commits the same crime. In a way, it's seems flattering that the world is more concerned about Catholic boys and girls than other boys and girls, however I don't think this is fair. Light needs to be shone upon and abuses remedied wherever they occur. As a Catholic active in the Church, I'm playing my own role in this. Before I was allowed to work with children or vulnerable adults I had to get fingerprinted and pass a background check. Also, my diocese has guidelines which I must acknowledge I have read every year. If their is any abuse going on in my parish, I would be very surprised to hear about it. Also, and I don't think this follows the guidelines, if I were every to become aware of abuse, I would call the cops first and tell the Church next.

As saddening, embarrassing and infuriating these scandals and subsequent cover ups are, I've still got no inclination to leave the Catholic Church. Instead I want to continue to be part of the solution.

While I get your point and I am glad your parish is doing something, I don't think it matters that it happens in other churches. "Well, he's doing it, so can we!!" No. That doesn't fly.

Yes, we get more media coverage. But part of that is because we're the largest Christian church in the world. And this is pretty big.

Yeah, Euchy, I'm a Christian and because I am I believe certain things:

1) You don't abuse kids.
2) You don't have sexual relations with kids.
3) You don't take advantage of people who depend on your kindness and charity
4) You don't cover for those who do.
5) You man up and take responsibility for your actions when you do wrong and accept any punishment you have coming.
6) You don't expect that once your character has been shown be suspect that you get to keep both your reputation and authority just because you're, like, you.
7) I have two people I should call father: A 75 years old guy who resembles Henry Kissinger and God and neither of them is the Pope.
8) I should defend the Church from all those who attach her whether from without and within regardless of who they are.
9) You call out people who are sinning for their own good.
10) You don't blindly follow any person who comes along with a good line of pious rap just because its pious rap.

 

[mark46]

A) I do not question that God will render his judgement and mercy on those who were and are responsible, and most especially the bishops, the popes, and their functionaries at every level.

B) Yes, I (and we all) will continue to pray for those who were harmed, especially the children, the priests and the families.
---------------------------
C) But the largest concern is indeed for those whose very faith has been affected as you noted in red, those who have left, those have stayed, and those who have not come, all because of these issues. These are the largest effects, since these affect eternal life.
D) Many have been led to other churches where the Lord will heal them and welcome all back into his family.
E) Many will pray and discern with regard to what it means to be Catholic.

I can only say that in the 70's, 80's and 90's, there were many, many converts to the RCC, not so many now.
-----------------
THE MOST SADDENING THING FOR ME is that the Church was challenged and presented an opportunity to be the shining light on the hill. All the world was and is watching how the Catholic Church would deal with its cancer. How would the largest Christain community deal with these issues? Surely the world would learn much about Christains and Christainity. And so the Church acted and is acting while the world watches and learns what it means to Catholic.

Perhaps in this age the choice of church or even not to go to church is too easy to make. We do not HAVE TO deal with the issue. We can just leave. IMHO, if this were 500 years ago, there would be a re-formation of the Church, so great is the gravity of what is happening to the Church.

So, I am indeed bitter, but not for myself. I have moved from the authority of the Bishop of Rome and to the authority of another bishop.
===================================================
YOU POSTED
.................................................
so they will be off our hook, however that does not mean they will be off God's.[/quote]
Now millions of Americans are totally confused about what it means to be Catholic.

 

[Memento Mori]

Well, in spite of what has been going on in the Church for some reason I converted seven years in spite of new child abuse allegations showing up in the paper and my diocese subsequently filing bankruptcy because of it.

So, what would make someone convert to Catholicism in spite of it's record?

Personally, I'm glad all this is coming to light. Our bishop has managed to get our diocese through the scandal and he did it by being honest about the abuses and sincere in his attempt to reconcile with and compensate the victims. Even the lawyers were happy with the Church.

Simply put, this is the gates of hell rising against the Church. We know abuses go on in other institutions, but it's the Catholic Church that get all the publicity. There are other reasons for this, of course. For one, when the Catholic Church makes the claims it does about our clergy and their authority then of course it is going to be more scandalous than when your average joe commits the same crime. In a way, it's seems flattering that the world is more concerned about Catholic boys and girls than other boys and girls, however I don't think this is fair. Light needs to be shone upon and abuses remedied wherever they occur. As a Catholic active in the Church, I'm playing my own role in this. Before I was allowed to work with children or vulnerable adults I had to get fingerprinted and pass a background check. Also, my diocese has guidelines which I must acknowledge I have read every year. If their is any abuse going on in my parish, I would be very surprised to hear about it. Also, and I don't think this follows the guidelines, if I were every to become aware of abuse, I would call the cops first and tell the Church next.

As saddening, embarrassing and infuriating these scandals and subsequent cover ups are, I've still got no inclination to leave the Catholic Church. Instead I want to continue to be part of the solution.

Great post, tad.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

No offense intended, but this is the one thing that makes me not consider the Catholic church anymore. I would love to become Catholic, I visit a beautiful abbey several times a week. But, at this point I know I will never become Catholic because of this: It has shown the church authority is corrupt.

It was since the beginning with the apostles.

 

[Secundulus]

Perhaps in this age the choice of church or even not to go to church is too easy to make. We do not HAVE TO deal with the issue. We can just leave. IMHO, if this were 500 years ago, there would be a re-formation of the Church, so great is the gravity of what is happening to the Church.

Indirectly, this was one of the Reformation issues.

Clergy at that time were exempt from civil law and held accountable only to Church law. Some broke the civil law with impunity and were protected by the Church from accountability.

Sound familiar?

 

[Memento Mori]

No offense intended, but this is the one thing that makes me not consider the Catholic church anymore. I would love to become Catholic, I visit a beautiful abbey several times a week. But, at this point I know I will never become Catholic because of this: It has shown the church authority is corrupt.

And I mean no offense either, but you should or should not want to convert based on the claim that the Church is God's sacramental family and not because you are impressed or disgusted by the people in that family.

 

[mark46]

Yes indeed, as did the granting of indulgences in 2000.

This decade is the 500th aniversary of the re-formation of the Church. It will be very interesting to see how the Spirit works in these next few years as we remember and discern.

Indirectly, this was one of the Reformation issues.

Clergy at that time were exempt from civil law and held accountable only to Church law. Some broke the civil law with impunity and were protected by the Church from accountability.

Sound familiar?

 

[BAFRIEND]

First of all, as for abuse in the priesthood we are talking about 2% of priests. Don't paint with a broad brush- yes, no priest should ever molest children but it could be much worse because according to the insurance industry tht tracks clergy abuse claims- protestant denominations have double the rate of molestations than the RCC.

As for the cover ups in the RCC, you are basically looking at a molehill when you place it beside the mountain of how the US judicial system handled the problem. The revolving door for offenders... and the courts have the same excuse as the Church, they state they did not understand the nature or psychology involved.

And you know, the evidence to support the Church, or legal system, whatever lies in the actions those parents of those children took also...

 

[mark46]

Only 1 in 50 priests are child molestors? And you think that this is a small number? And what you think the actions of the American bishops and cardinals and heads of seminaries who knew and did little or nothing? See below for a summary article which agrees with the 2% number and that the number is probably lower than for Protestant denominations. The difference is that there are many more children involved with priests than with pastors (285 on average says one report).

http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex8.htm

We are quick to be angry at the US media for attacking the Church. Do you think the same would happen if one out of 50 elementary school teachers were a child molestor? I do. And yes, I do understand that this is indeed a HUGE problem in schools. But if 1 of 50 teachers were really guilt of homosexual paedophilia and the press knew, there would be trials and lawsuits and a media frenzy.

And you think that after all the evidence, that this is just a molehill?
------------------------------------------------------------------
I have nothing to add. Enough has been said about the experience in the US, enough has been written. Perhaps after the current European scandals, people will listen, or not. After all, there are still those who deny the Holocaust.
--------------

Again, I do not mean to offend, but those of us who lived though this in the parishes around Boston well understand what happened, as well as the priests in the seminaries. And I know that our diocese were not the only ones. There have been many, many stories written on the subject from those within the Church.

And yes, we carefully avoid the homosexual nature of almost all the molestations in most of our discussions, and the additional pain this has caused.
-----------

In the end, the answer is to pray for everyone involved INCLUDING PRAZYING FOR THE LEADERSHIP OF THE CHURCH! We need to pray that the leadership doesn't consider this JUST 2% and not an extraordianry problem, but similar to that of other professions. The standard for priests is different and should be. Do you disagree?
--------------------

May the Holy Spirit protect the Church and may He bring yet another breath of fresh air to the Church, as Pope John XXIII prayed from a generation ago.

Yours in Chirst,

mark

First of all, as for abuse in the priesthood we are talking about 2% of priests. Don't paint with a broad brush- yes, no priest should ever molest children but it could be much worse because according to the insurance industry tht tracks clergy abuse claims- protestant denominations have double the rate of molestations than the RCC.

As for the cover ups in the RCC, you are basically looking at a molehill when you place it beside the mountain of how the US judicial system handled the problem. The revolving door for offenders... and the courts have the same excuse as the Church, they state they did not understand the nature or psychology involved.

And you know, the evidence to support the Church, or legal system, whatever lies in the actions those parents of those children took also...

 

[Michie]

Well, in spite of what has been going on in the Church for some reason I converted seven years in spite of new child abuse allegations showing up in the paper and my diocese subsequently filing bankruptcy because of it.

So, what would make someone convert to Catholicism in spite of it's record?

Personally, I'm glad all this is coming to light. Our bishop has managed to get our diocese through the scandal and he did it by being honest about the abuses and sincere in his attempt to reconcile with and compensate the victims. Even the lawyers were happy with the Church.

Simply put, this is the gates of hell rising against the Church. We know abuses go on in other institutions, but it's the Catholic Church that get all the publicity. There are other reasons for this, of course. For one, when the Catholic Church makes the claims it does about our clergy and their authority then of course it is going to be more scandalous than when your average joe commits the same crime. In a way, it's seems flattering that the world is more concerned about Catholic boys and girls than other boys and girls, however I don't think this is fair. Light needs to be shone upon and abuses remedied wherever they occur. As a Catholic active in the Church, I'm playing my own role in this. Before I was allowed to work with children or vulnerable adults I had to get fingerprinted and pass a background check. Also, my diocese has guidelines which I must acknowledge I have read every year. If their is any abuse going on in my parish, I would be very surprised to hear about it. Also, and I don't think this follows the guidelines, if I were every to become aware of abuse, I would call the cops first and tell the Church next.

As saddening, embarrassing and infuriating these scandals and subsequent cover ups are, I've still got no inclination to leave the Catholic Church. Instead I want to continue to be part of the solution.

Excellent post.

I think there is some house cleaning going on in more ways than one.

 

[Fantine]

I don't believe that celibacy has anything to do with clerical abuse and related coverups.

I believe it has to do with hierarchy.

In authoritarian culture, those in authority often believe that they are not accountable to the people they serve. They don't believe that they have to practice full disclosure and transparency in their dealings.

The solution to the clerical abuse crisis and related coverups is not necessarily a married priesthood (although I am not opposed to that concept.)

Instead, it is a church where women and laity are respected and involved in administrative positions within the church, where information is communicated, where meetings are open...

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I don't believe that celibacy has anything to do with clerical abuse and related coverups.

I don't think any reasonable person could argue that - unless they want to say that the more they want sex, the more they are attracted to children. It just doesn't work that way.

People that can't handle celibacy have affairs, just as married persons when their partner fails to meet their sexual and intimacy needs. Pedophilia is a problem for all fields. It just so happens that many bishops did not handle the situation well in the past and essentially ignored the problems.

 

[Ambrosius]

And I mean no offense either, but you should or should not want to convert based on the claim that the Church is God's sacramental family and not because you are impressed or disgusted by the people in that family.

In my mind the shepherds of the flock misleading and abusing those who they lead makes it impossible that they are in fact that family. One could say, they may be corrupt but they are still the leaders but it makes no sense to me... the early Saints were not like this. If someone did such grievous harm to the church they were excommunicated, not given excuses. Priests and bishops who abuse children and are involved in covering it up have killed the faith of millions of people. They are worse than heretics.

 

[BAFRIEND]

dear mark,

sorry, i did not say it is a small number- i stated it mirrored society, seen the newspapers lately- even women, and a lot of them school teachers- are molesting kids these days- how about that female sunday school teacher that molested and murdered a little girl, huh ?

and here the protestant denoms have twice the molestation rate and we never hear about that now do we cause they dont have the money or centralized authority to do finger pointing.

the fact is i bet 1 in 50 school teachers probably are child molestors

did you even read my post, mark or do you just twist and turn things for your own liking ?

anyway mark, it is not your Church