This Is Not Hyperbole: Democrats Now Refuse To Oppose Infanticide

[Arcangl86]

Now that I had time to think on it, it's even worst of a law. It creates a legal duty to act which is very very unusual in American jurisprudence. The only example i can think of right now is mandated reporting in cases of abuse or potentially violent patients.

 

[redleghunter]

Not a thing. But it also does not empower Congress to enact laws involving proper medical care.

The same Congress which gave us the Affordable Healthcare Act?

 

[redleghunter]

Now that I had time to think on it, it's even worst of a law. It creates a legal duty to act which is very very unusual in American jurisprudence. The only example i can think of right now is mandated reporting in cases of abuse or potentially violent patients.

How is it unusual? If a woman procuring an abortion starts having a cardiac arrest does not the abortion provider have a responsibility to render care?

Why not a born alive human being?

 

[redleghunter]

Thanks for the quotes @St_Worm2 and @redleghunter; informative and thought provoking.

Even with the science my problem is getting trapped in the theological/philosophical mindset. So I worry about forcing my personal beliefs on others; though there's scientific facts to defend them. Only hesitance was believing human life started at conception; but was confused by the person-hood question, more so for early stages of abortion. Y'all have helped to clarify that for me, now I'm more comfortable being pro-life. But I continue to be sympathetic to rare exceptions such as medical necessity, rape, and incest.

Medical necessity has never been an issue. Even before Roe v Wade.

Rape is a crime and awful situation physically and emotionally for a woman. I can see your concern. But I'll ask...what did the unborn child do to get a death sentence? I mean the rapist if caught gets maybe 7 years in prison 3 hots and a cot and cable TV. Maybe rape should be a capital punishment.

 

[SolomonVII]

Forcing ones views upon others means forcing ones ideas that infants are valueless by violently snuffing them out.

 

[Arcangl86]

The same Congress which gave us the Affordable Healthcare Act?

The ACA was fundamentally about health care insurance and the health care market. It didn't try to impose specific standards or responsibilities on individual practitioners. This bill doesn't even have the usual Commerce Clause fig-leaf that is usually used by Congress.

How is it unusual? If a woman procuring an abortion starts having a cardiac arrest does not the abortion provider have a responsibility to render care?
Why not a born alive human being?

If there already exists a relationship between a person and a doctor, particularly in the middle of a procedure, then yes the doctor has a legal duty to act. But outside of an emergency room, doctors do not have a duty of care to somebody they do not already have a fidcuary relationship.

 

[SolomonVII]

 

[Brotherly Spirit]

Medical necessity has never been an issue. Even before Roe v Wade.

Rape is a crime and awful situation physically and emotionally for a woman. I can see your concern. But I'll ask...what did the unborn child do to get a death sentence? I mean the rapist if caught gets maybe 7 years in prison 3 hots and a cot and cable TV. Maybe rape should be a capital punishment.

Nothing, the child wasn't the one who did it and doesn't deserve to be punished for it. It's just difficult when also considering the mothers too as well as the children. Plus politically it would be better if there's agreement to limit abortion at least to rare exceptions including rape, which would decrease abortions; and other policies to address underlying causes.

Guess I should learn to go personally with what I believe upfront, as we know politics isn't worth the consideration except rare moments of genuine compromise (ever happened?). Now what about medical necessity and incest, what's your thoughts about severe medical problems of the child too (defects/deformities, rare diseases etc.)?

I'm opposed to capital punishment for any crime for two reasons; first innocent people are convicted and the death penalty would be irreversible killing of people who didn't deserve it, second it's not necessary with life in prison which is irreversible and unnecessarily killing wouldn't make us any better.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Nothing, the child wasn't the one who did it and doesn't deserve to be punished for it. It's just difficult when also considering the mothers too as well as the children. Plus politically it would be better if there's agreement to limit abortion at least to rare exceptions including rape, which would decrease abortions; and other policies to address underlying causes.

Guess I should learn to go personally with what I believe upfront, as we know politics isn't worth the consideration except rare moments of genuine compromise (ever happened?). Now what about medical necessity and incest, what's your thoughts about severe medical problems of the child too (defects/deformities, rare diseases etc.)?

I'm opposed to capital punishment for any crime for two reasons; first innocent people are convicted and the death penalty would be irreversible killing of people who didn't deserve it, second it's not necessary with life in prison which is irreversible and unnecessarily killing wouldn't make us any better.

I have so many questions ...some theological but almost none politically. So that I may keep this relevant to the OP and not be guilty of goading, I ask this question . If every conservative republican could have every single appointment they desired and abortion in all its forms against the law, would every person wake up the next day in love with God for His unspeakable gift of salvation through the gift of His beloved and cherished Son, Jesus Christ ? ( I am a christian and not a politician. ) Would all of these women now have hope and await the return of the messiah? I ask this question because despite the politics , we are Christians first ..not even americans ( for American ( or Mexican or fill in the blank ) is a short term designation ...we are disciples of Christ , right ? Or are we more like the lawyers who placed heavy burdens on people but would not lift one of them with their little fingers . Do we want the US government to do the lifting ? To be christians for us ? Are we Christians by proxy ? Is that it ? We vote our conscience ? I was sick and in prison . How did you vote ? I was hungry ..who did you support ? I was naked did you contribute to a conservative PAC ? I am not for abortion but I am not for any ungodliness. For example, this should be tied to antiabortion rhetoric ...Divorce and remarriage is so selfish and demonstrates unfaithfulness ...it destroys families, causes confusion in children and keeps children from seeing the singleness of purpose from two christian married for life for the sake of the gospel . It takes food from the poor now that two households have to be maintained . If Roe Vs. Wade is outlawed , will the conservatives take this issue on next ? One man and one woman. I do not mean to stray from the topic of alarm brought to light by the OP , but abortion ( and our laws protecting it ) is just one of many holes in a sinking ship and passing laws against it ( or passing laws against any form of ungodliness) will not solve the problem . Jesus said to overcome evil with good . What would that look like ? Adopting both the mother and the child and making disciples of them? We are told to go make disciples ..I am speaking to Christians here....Not republicans and democrats. I am speaking to those who were lost but were found by Jesus Christ. The lost. What law changed your heart and who passed it ? Who demonstrated Christ ? Who ministered the gospel ? And what did you do with it ? I think we are misguided by politics. I do not see much conversation regarding making disciples by either party . Making disciples . When was the last time anyone heard that was their platform ?

 

[gideon123]

In some ghettos in Africa, you can walk past the drainage ditches in the morning and see the bodies of dead babies lying there. This happens because the mothers are living in dire poverty, life is abhorrent, and they cannot support another child. So the mother goes at night and dumps her baby in the drainage ditch to die.
These are not random thoughts. I have done missions work in Africa's ghettos.

Looking at the above article - the termination of a 'fetus' five seconds before it is born is really no different than what the poor woman is doing in the ghetto in Africa.

It's only a matter of a few minutes, either way.

America is really putting itself at the same moral standard as the ghetto inhabitants. No more, no less.

 

[redleghunter]

Nothing, the child wasn't the one who did it and doesn't deserve to be punished for it. It's just difficult when also considering the mothers too as well as the children

It all goes back to whether one considers the equal moral worth of human life at all stages. I also tend not to call a woman a "mother" if she chooses to terminate the human life inside her. Mothers nurture, care and protect their children.

Plus politically it would be better if there's agreement to limit abortion at least to rare exceptions including rape, which would decrease abortions; and other policies to address underlying causes.

Most state laws include those exceptions, yet it never advances the dialogue. Those who support abortion are usually of the vein of abortion on demand at all stages. Really can't reason with such a position.

Guess I should learn to go personally with what I believe upfront, as we know politics isn't worth the consideration except rare moments of genuine compromise (ever happened?). Now what about medical necessity and incest, what's your thoughts about severe medical problems of the child too (defects/deformities, rare diseases etc.)?

The life of the pregnant woman has always been protected. Even after Roe.

On rare defects and deformities? Do we euthanize born children or toddlers if they develop health issues which would take their lives months or years later? No we don't and I hope we never as a society get there. If we deem all human life at all stages as equally valuable then should we not extend to an unborn human the same considerations we would a two year old?

 

[NeedyFollower]

In some ghettos in Africa, you can walk past the drainage ditches in the morning and see the bodies of dead babies lying there. This happens because the mothers are living in dire poverty, life is abhorrent, and they cannot support another child. So the mother goes at night and dumps her baby in the drainage ditch to die.
These are not random thoughts. I have done missions work in Africa's ghettos.

Looking at the above article - the termination of a 'fetus' five seconds before it is born is really no different than what the poor woman is doing in the ghetto in Africa.

It's only a matter of a few minutes, either way.

America is really putting itself at the same moral standard as the ghetto inhabitants. No more, no less.

Hi Brother ..Yes I agree. I had read in a book called Moral Combat regarding before Roe verses Wade that many of the illegal abortions ( not that there are legal abortions ) were performed on a woman in poverty who already was the mother of 5 or 6 children. Obviously this may raise the question of birth control. I am celibate having no other option since my wife left me after my repentance but I wonder if it is possible for a Christ centered married couple in dire poverty to practice at least some abstinence rather than bring another life into the world. Would the " christian" man be likely to feel amorous if he were the one staying home with the children? Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her .
I understand that it is the churches position to bring godly seed into the world but to take a child to church verses raising a child as a disciple of Jesus Christ is not the same ...to keep them unspotted from the world is not so easy these days . To raise a child in the US , particularly if one is affluent , the hope a child often has ( even a christian child ) is not Christ but rather success in this life ..good education , opportunity , success . I am afraid this is our gospel. I was wondering last night if abortion is a huge problem in the church ...if not , then maybe the answer does not lie in a political solution via the Republicans verses the democrats but rather the solution might be Jesus Christ in a demonstrable way .

 

[Brotherly Spirit]

I have so many questions ...some theological but almost none politically. So that I may keep this relevant to the OP and not be guilty of goading, I ask this question . If every conservative republican could have every single appointment they desired and abortion in all its forms against the law, would every person wake up the next day in love with God for His unspeakable gift of salvation through the gift of His beloved and cherished Son, Jesus Christ ? ( I am a christian and not a politician. ) Would all of these women now have hope and await the return of the messiah? I ask this question because despite the politics , we are Christians first ..not even americans ( for American ( or Mexican or fill in the blank ) is a short term designation ...we are disciples of Christ , right ? Or are we more like the lawyers who placed heavy burdens on people but would not lift one of them with their little fingers . Do we want the US government to do the lifting ? To be christians for us ? Are we Christians by proxy ? Is that it ? We vote our conscience ? I was sick and in prison . How did you vote ? I was hungry ..who did you support ? I was naked did you contribute to a conservative PAC ? I am not for abortion but I am not for any ungodliness. For example, this should be tied to antiabortion rhetoric ...Divorce and remarriage is so selfish and demonstrates unfaithfulness ...it destroys families, causes confusion in children and keeps children from seeing the singleness of purpose from two christian married for life for the sake of the gospel . It takes food from the poor now that two households have to be maintained . If Roe Vs. Wade is outlawed , will the conservatives take this issue on next ? One man and one woman. I do not mean to stray from the topic of alarm brought to light by the OP , but abortion ( and our laws protecting it ) is just one of many holes in a sinking ship and passing laws against it ( or passing laws against any form of ungodliness) will not solve the problem . Jesus said to overcome evil with good . What would that look like ? Adopting both the mother and the child and making disciples of them? We are told to go make disciples ..I am speaking to Christians here....Not republicans and democrats. I am speaking to those who were lost but were found by Jesus Christ. The lost. What law changed your heart and who passed it ? Who demonstrated Christ ? Who ministered the gospel ? And what did you do with it ? I think we are misguided by politics. I do not see much conversation regarding making disciples by either party . Making disciples . When was the last time anyone heard that was their platform ?

Yes, I would rather not worry about politics. But it's what governs us as a recognized authority by the general public and laws are agreements of what's expect of each to the other. An example is not to murder, killing each other; or else you'll be held responsible and accounted by law.

I agree only way to change hearts is convincing people. If Christians want to convert people to their religion, it has to be separate from politics. It can't be by force of law or secular democratic process.

It all goes back to whether one considers the equal moral worth of human life at all stages. I also tend not to call a woman a "mother" if she chooses to terminate the human life inside her. Mothers nurture, care and protect their children.


Most state laws include those exceptions, yet it never advances the dialogue. Those who support abortion are usually of the vein of abortion on demand at all stages. Really can't reason with such a position.


The life of the pregnant woman has always been protected. Even after Roe.

On rare defects and deformities? Do we euthanize born children or toddlers if they develop health issues which would take their lives months or years later? No we don't and I hope we never as a society get there. If we deem all human life at all stages as equally valuable then should we not extend to an unborn human the same considerations we would a two year old?

I can't disagree about either you do or not believe the unborn are human life. It's no different than believing born children and adults are equally human. While the differences are recognized, both have their rights protected as humanly possible considering their capabilities.

Yes, I don't doubt the mother's life would be protected regardless. She would be the only one affected who would have a say. Which is also the point about severe medical problems for any child.

If there's a decision to be made by parents for example to take a child suffering extremely by a painful and deadly disease that's incurable; only way to ease suffering is to take the child off machines and medicate the pain while letting the child die quicker. You don't believe a similar case could exist for a unborn child who would suffer a less severe birth of life and death situation if aborted?

Edit: After the fact on the question of medical necessity for the child, I realize it's much different to pro-actively end a life than it is to let a life end naturally. So all other efforts as usual would be considered to ease suffering. Only if a severe complication in the womb required the child to be delivered early would necessitate risking the child's life.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Yes, I would rather not worry about politics. But it's what governs us as a recognized authority by the general public and laws are agreements of what's expect of each to the other. An example is not to murder, killing each other; or else you'll be held responsible and accounted by law.

I agree only way to change hearts is convincing people. If Christians want to convert people to their religion, it has to be separate from politics. It can't be by force of law or secular democratic process.



I can't disagree about either you do or not believe the unborn are human life. It's no different than believing born children and adults are equally human. While the differences are recognized, both have their rights protected as humanly possible considering their capabilities.

Yes, I don't doubt the mother's life would be protected regardless. She would be the only one affected who would have a say. Which is also the point about severe medical problems for any child.

If there's a decision to be made by parents for example to take a child suffering extremely by a painful and deadly disease that's incurable; only way to ease suffering is to take the child off machines and medicate the pain while letting the child die quicker. You don't believe a similar case could exist for a unborn child who would suffer a less severe birth of life and death situation if aborted?

Edit: After the fact on the question of medical necessity for the child, I realize it's much different to pro-actively end a life than it is to let a life end naturally. So all other efforts as usual would be considered to ease suffering. Only if a severe complication in the womb required the child to be delivered early would necessitate risking the child's life.

Yes, I would rather not worry about politics. But it's what governs us as a recognized authority by the general public and laws are agreements of what's expect of each to the other. An example is not to murder, killing each other; or else you'll be held responsible and accounted by law.

I agree only way to change hearts is convincing people. If Christians want to convert people to their religion, it has to be separate from politics. It can't be by force of law or secular democratic process.

Yes ..It does seem counterintuative that Christians can make a difference outside of and without getting involved in politics but clearly for me anyway , this was the method of the church for the first 300 or so years . How many christians had political power in Rome in the days of Christ or in the days of Paul and the other Apostles ? What was their score card ? Is not the fruit of their labor still reaping rewards ? I am aware of the atrocities committed by atheistic communist regimes like Stalin but I am also aware that many nazi's were not atheist nor were those ( Pilgrims ) who persecuted the " heathen " native Americans ( ironically enough with the apparent blessings of the Bible through the Old Covenant . ) Adulteresses , heretics ( like the Quakers ) were also often given capital punishment ....according to the law ....again ironically enough by those who would profess to have received divine mercy themselves .
I think there is biblical ( and early christian historical evidence ) that it would be better not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers even in government administration. Do not the atheist in power still not belong to God ? If Christians were not in government , would murder become legal ? Adultery ? Covetousness ? It seems that those things are in fact legally sanctioned ..abortion , divorce and remarriage ( legalized adultery ) and putting our money out to usury . These are all perfectly legal . ( Despite Jesus' words against such things . ) It seems that the only thing our political process has accomplished is to provide us with an appearance of righteousness. So to tie this in with the OP post ...yes , kick the child murdering democrats out and in the morning , money will still be our God and our children will be raised to adore it .

 

[SolomonVII]

.....
Most state laws include those exceptions, yet it never advances the dialogue. Those who support abortion are usually of the vein of abortion on demand at all stages. Really can't reason with such a position.
....

The last attempt in Congress was twenty weeks. That would put America in line with most of Europe. It is when the unborn is viable, and measurably can feel pain.

It is the very concept of motherhood that this version of feminism finds oppressive.

 

[redleghunter]

The last attempt in Congress was twenty weeks. That would put America in line with most of Europe. It is when the unborn is viable, and measurably can feel pain.

It is the very concept of motherhood that this version of feminism finds oppressive.

Mississippi just passed a 15 week Bill.

 

[redleghunter]

The last attempt in Congress was twenty weeks. That would put America in line with most of Europe. It is when the unborn is viable, and measurably can feel pain.

It is the very concept of motherhood that this version of feminism finds oppressive.

Sorry here's the link:

BREAKING: Mississippi state house votes to ban abortion after 15 weeks