This is not a personal attack...just a point

It merely allows one to accept empirical reality.

God is reality,you let him slip and incogneto you go.

Today at 09:05 AM Freedom777 said this in Post #21

It merely allows one to accept empirical reality.

God is reality,you let him slip and incogneto you go.

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What?

Yesterday at 06:44 PM Arikay said this in Post

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#6
There is a danger in spliting christianity into new and old age gods. It divides christians against each other and makes christianity its own worst enemy.

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Historically, Christians have always punished Christian dissenters nearly as severely as they punished Jews. In 317 C.E. Constantine published the "Edict of Toleration." In 370 C.E. first Christian "heretics" were put to death.

As I remember, the point of contention was whether Jesus was of the "same substance as the Father" (homousion) or of a "similar substance to the Father". (homoiusion) I forget which side won by ferreting out and exterminating the opposition.

Isn't it ironic that a Jewish reformer of the Pharisaic school is taken up as a god by a heretical Jewish sect? He would turn over in his grave if he weren't dead. (Jesus was by doctrine and method a Pharisee. Paul, by doctrine and method, never was.  Which is to say, Paul was a liar.)

(Edited for punctuation)

and still my simple question goes unanswered.......

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Well, I hope you aren't expecting an answer from me. I don't worship any of them, however many there may be (or may not be).

I am a christian and i believe in jesus and if jesus is the man in charge when it comes to the human soul, he is god. Everyone even if they don't know are talking to him when they pray.

Judaism of the time of Jesus was sectarian, though not as incredibly divided as Christianity today. There were the Zealots, the Essenes, the Pharisees and the Zadokites or Sadducees. The Zadokites claimed the priesthood as a family right, and they were strict legalists.

The Pharisees were of a more humane disposition. They were saying things that really ticked off the Sadducees, like "The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life.",and  "You cannot serve both god and money."  This really offended the Sadducees. 

The Pharisees also taught that God was more pleased with kindness and mercy than with sacrifices and rituals. The teachings of Jesus were lifted (and perhaps elaborated) from the teachings of the Pharisees. The whole of Matthew 5:1 through 7:29 is Pharisaical teaching.

Saul of Tarsus, Paulus, to give him his Roman name, was probably a member of the temple police who were charged with apprehending , and punishing those charged with religious offenses. . Thus, he would have been a Sadducee. This explains why he was present at the stoning of Stephanos as a minor official. This would also explain his persecution of the new sect of Judaism that arose after the death of Jesus. This sect believed that Jesus was the messiah, which is to say the king of the Jews. In Greek messiah was rendered as " 'o christos", or "the annointed", anointing with oil being part of the ritual corresponding to coronation. (His name was not "Jesus Christ", but would more properly be rendered as "Jesus the king.")

Being a Roman, Paulus would not have been a Pharisee. Roman religion was Roman patriotism. Paul would not have been admitted to the Pharisaical school. It would be like the Mormons inviting a Jesuit into their temple in Salt Lake City. 

It was the charge of claiming to be a king that got Jesus executed. The Romans still remembered their own kings and hated the very word. The emperors had lots of titles, "consul for life", "imperator", "pontifex maximus", but even when they proclaimed their own divinity they never took the title "rex". And they certainly weren't going to tolerate those bandits, preachers and miracle workers who were a troubling presence in a very rebellious province where claimants to the Jewish throne were sprouting like weeds. The procurator of Judea would turn a tolerant eye therefore, on the Sadducees efforts to root out another troublesome sect.

Remember how Paul argued with and revolted from the followers of Jesus who remained Jews under Jewish dietary and legal restrictions a practices, such as circumcision. He was the "apostle to the gentiles" , "gentile" in this case being those attracted to Judaism but unwilling or unable to put themselves under the full rigor of Jewish law. These "Gentiles" or "Greeks" would keep the Decalogue , and refrain from eating blood, animals sacrificed to pagan gods, or anything that was strangled. And it seems likely that Paulus was one of these, in the first instance, or the Jewish child of "Greek" parents. He weaned these "Greeks" from mainstream Judaism, and in doing so, invented "Christianity".

After this, he got to travel a lot, with a personal servant, and in general provided the model for all those subsequent evangelists who do well by doing good. (Or at least preaching good.)

This and more is covered in a most entertaining argument, "The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity." Hyam Maccoby © 1986. Barnes and Noble

Some of this I had run across before, but Maccoby brings a wealth of information and scholarship to his discussion. It explains the early history of Christianity far more plausibly than Paul's "Tinkertoy" ™ religious philosophy, which was disgusting to the Jews and risible to the real Greek philosophical schools.

Now, before you good "Christians" start foaming at the mouth, let me point out that I don't expect you to believe any of this. I don't expect you to read Maccoby's book. Folks who can't see the overwhelming evidence for biological evolution are not going to lend credence to something that calls even more seriously into question, their holy book.

Please note however, that the teachings of Jesus are still valid though they come from the mouth of a mere mortal man. I would argue that any true saying is the word of God. I would argue that the stars in the heavens and the stones of the earth and the human mind are the books where the real word of God is written.

I wouldn't try to deceive you , Follower, there would be small point to it. It would like pouring a cup full of salt into the ocean. I didn't suggest Jesus was an Essene. You don't read too well, do you? Jesus' teaching was identical to that of the Pharisees. The use of parables and the logical forms he used were typical of the Pharisaic school. His humane philosophy, so unlike the strict scriptural literalism of the Sadducees, was also typical of the Pharisees.

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

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(KJV)

"We know" said Nicodemus, meaning the Pharisees. And they knew this because his teaching agreed with theirs. And theirs, as a careful reading of your holy book would show, was correct. Read a book or two on Jewish religious history. You owe it to yourself.

I did mention the Essenes as one Jewish sect, but I never implied that Jesus was a member of that group.. It would seem that you believe so much nonsense, you can't even see what's right on the screen in black and gray. No wonder you have so much trouble with the truth.

Jesus was the son of God, but only in the sense that we are all children of God. I know Christians like to believe that Jesus was God's only child, because if he were so special, it lets them off the hook when they behave badly. If he paid the price for our sins, then we don't have to pay it. That's nonsense. You shall reap what you have sown, as shall we all. Wouldn't be fair otherwise, and God is fair.

I would like to think it is a request, not an order when you say to me, " Gracchus, Please stop trying to pass off your lies as truth." I suspect that you like to give orders and render judgements and pretend they have come from God. I have no reason to try to deceive anyone. If you could pluck the beam from your own eye (and I would recommend a drag line and a couple of bulldozers) you might have the spiritual "authority" to give me advice.

Meanwhile, I would, in a spirit of charity, suggest that you educate yourself, so you don't expose yourself as a complete jackass every time you put fingers to keyboard.

Two comments on Graccus post:

The romans had nothing against the term "rex" per se. There were even some offices called "rex" in republican Rome. (The interrex, a sort of intermediate consul, and the Rex Sacerdotus, a stand-in for the king in religious ceremonies)

There were not even opposed to kings ruling other people - Herod was a King of Judea by the hand of the Romans.

There were strongly opposed to the notion of a King of Rome, and the were opposed strongly to everyone who challenged Roman rule.

It was for the second reason Jesus was executed.



Paul was a Roman citizen, but not a Roman. He most likely came from one of the hellenized Jews that were the norm outside of Judea.

Thank you for the correction, Freodin.  I let my rhetoric outrun my wit.

Hey Gracchus,
Whats all this about "...Christians like to believe that Jesus was God's only child..." Are you saying that God is in heaven with a ton of Sons running around. You're making God out to be some sort of promiscuose deity.
Christ is God's Son, but He is also God Himself. Jesus said in the Bible "He who hath seen me hath seen the Father." He even pronounced Himself as the I AM (YHWH), why else do you think that the jews tried to stone Him? Christ is God!

Oh, and by the way, we prefer not to cuss when we are in these conversational debates. Please base your arguments on facts not on calling people "Jac----es". I am a Christian and if you didn't notice this is called "Christian Forums".

If jesus is god then who was he praying to in the garden before he was taken by the roman guards. your probably going to say something about the trinity but still if hes god hes god, it would be like talking to yourself. if he was just pumping himself up someone should just say that so peope like me don't have to ask questions like this.

Yesterday at 08:53 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #32

Well. Thank you for showing the truth of your words before.

In one short paragraph you have denied;

the virgin birth;
the atonement of sins
that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God

and probably a couple more that I missed.

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Hey, CONGRATULATIONS! Follower, you actually read what I wrote! I knew you had it in you if you would only try!

Posted by Willowolf posted Yesterday at 10:04 PM

Hey Gracchus,
Whats all this about "...Christians like to believe that Jesus was God's only child..." Are you saying that God is in heaven with a ton of Sons running around.

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You still don't get it. We are all children of God in the same sense that Jesus was, though he was far more advanced spiritually than anyone I have run into on this forum. If there is an immortal part of us it is the spirit that God gave of himself to us.

You're making God out to be some sort of promiscuose deity.

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You're seeing what I said through the distorting lens of literalism. And learn to use a spellchecker.

Christ is God's Son, but He is also God Himself. Jesus said in the Bible "He who hath seen me hath seen the Father." He even pronounced Himself as the I AM (YHWH), why else do you think that the jews tried to stone Him? Christ is God!

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The immortal spark in each of us is divine. It is God himself. We are in the Lord and the Lord is in us. Let the spirit fill you, let the spirit hold you. You can depend upon the Lord.

KJV Psalm 23:1 {A Psalm of David.} The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

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KJV Matthew 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

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Why do you cling so desperately to a holy book you refuse to understand? Do you think leather and paper and ink can save you? Put your trust in the Lord, not in a book.

Oh, and by the way, we prefer not to cuss when we are in these conversational debates. Please base your arguments on facts not on calling people "Jac----es". I am a Christian and if you didn't notice this is called "Christian Forums".

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jackass
Pronunciation: 'jak-"as
Function: noun
Date: 1727
1 : donkey, especially : a male donkey
2 : a stupid person : fool

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Merriam-Webster Dictionary

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Follower of Christ said: Gracchus, Please stop trying to pass off your lies as truth.

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I point out that someone who falsely accuses me of propagating lies is at a minimum a donkey. I cursed no one. Anyone with authority on this forum can ban me. I am not here for my own benefit. I am here, like Jonah at Nineveh, not for my own reasons. (But it didn't take a big fish to convince me.  Anyone can learn from his own mistakes.  Wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others.)

KJV Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

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Please note that I have never posted in any thread or forum that was designated for Christians only. I have not claimed to be a Christian. But then, Jesus wasn't a Christian either, he was Jewish. I find that 99% of most religion is dross, worthless ritual, remarkably foolish dogma, and egotistical hypocrisy. Most religions start from a common mystical experience, that cannot be explained or proved. Those emerging from this experience are much changed, they are braver, and lose their fear of death. When they try to put this experience into words, they lose it and it becomes only words, dead dogma on paper. Next thing you know the profiteers are crawling out of the woodwork, slapping trademarks on everything and selflessly selling nonsense for all they can get. "Get your Holy Water here.", "A Gold Embossed Personalized Bible with your name or the name of a loved one can be yours for only a few dollars a month. Reserve yours now!"

I read that over in Iraq, where there is a water shortage, an army chaplain is offering showers to any one who will consent to be baptized.

The Lord is going to cleanse his house.

KJV Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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His (X) Mark

That's awesome Follower of Christ. A big "5" for you.
Hey Gracchus,
You seem to think your some sort of deity,.... or wait, maybe it's that you think that if your really good in this life your going to become a God in the future. When was the last time you bowed before the ONE TRUE GOD??!!

Today at 10:25 AM Willowolf said this in Post #38
Hey Gracchus,
You seem to think your some sort of deity,.... or wait, maybe it's that you think that if your really good in this life your going to become a God in the future.

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The Lord is in me, and I am in the Lord. I became an empty vessel and the Lord filled me.  I cast away all my knowlege and the Lord taught me.  I lept into the darkness, and the Lord took me into his hand.  I fled, even unto death, and the Lord gave me life.

 

When was the last time you bowed before the ONE TRUE GOD??!!

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Where did you aver get the idea that the Lord wants you to bow to him?  And why do you shout if you are not frightened?

H.L. Mencken once remarked, "God made man in His own image, and man, being a gentleman, returned the compliment." (Yes, I know, Mencken was an atheist, but some atheists are closer to the Lord than those who loudly proclaim their piety.)

 

KJV Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

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Truly, you have fashioned an idol in your own image: cruel, ignorant, and egotistical. It was the Romans who insisted that God was an emperor, requiring obeisance, and public piety.  The Reformation didn't go far enough. 

Protestants have been quote mining their holy book for so long, ignoring the contradictions and inconsistencies, that they read into it what is not there, and overlook what is there. 

One of the big problems with holy books, is that they are all too often closed canons.  They become dead words on paper, and the credulous ignore the word of the Lord all around them; and in their holy book they see only what they wish to see, because they know not the Lord, and so have no discernment.

Jonah complained to the Lord because Nineveh listened (at least in the story, which is a parable. In history, the real Nineveh never did.)  I shall not complain because you don't.

KJV Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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His (X) Mark

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