"This is My Body"

Kirsten said:

It makes all the difference because some claim to be the only church who can change ordinary bread into Jesus Himself. Certainly, if Jesus really told His disciples that they must literally consume Him to be saved, He would have made it very clear where they would find His flesh to consume.

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He did. He said:

"Do this...."

So today, bread that was gotten anywhere (just as the Apostles bought bread for the Passover Supper they intended to celebrate with Jesus that night)... is used to "do this," i.e. observe the Lord's Supper. Just like they did then. It's not a problem. And for the wine, the local store works just fine also.

Albion said:

He did. He said:

"Do this...."

So take bread that was gotten anywhere (just as the Apostles bought bread for the Passover Supper they intended to celebrate with Jesus that night)...and "do this," i.e. observe the Lord's Supper, like they did then. Not a problem.

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"in REMEMBRANCE OF ME". That is why Christians everywhere can break bread together to remember what He has done for us. We are not eating Him, we are remembering what He has done.

Kirsten said:

"in REMEMBRANCE OF ME". That is why Christians everywhere can break bread together to remember what He has done for us. We are not eating Him, we are remembering what He has done.

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However, the verses teach that both are part of the Supper--"This is my body" AND Remembrance.

The earliest Christians certainly believed they were eating Him:

I have no delight in the food of corruption or
in the delights of this life. I desire the bread of
God, which is the flesh of Christ who was of the seed
of David; and for drink I desire His blood, which is love incorruptible - Ignatius Letter to the Romans 7:3 110AD

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Almost every historic Christian church believes this, except for some of the Anabaptists. The belief has fallen into disregard among Methodists and Presbyterians, but that is due to 18th-19th century rationalism more than actually reflecting on Calvin's teachings.

Historic Baptist teaching was receptionism (that the body and blood are only present after the bread and wine are received), again, a belief that has fallen into disregard in favor of memorialism.

<< in REMEMBRANCE OF ME". That is why Christians everywhere can break bread together to remember what He has done for us. We are not eating Him, we are remembering what He has done.>>

Ok. So, should I rip John chapter 6 out of my Bible based on your comment?

That's where Jesus said:

John 6:48-51 I am the bread of life.Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.

John 6:53-58 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.

Jesus was just kidding or something. Right?

And, of course, I should just ignore the first generation of bishops who were taught by the apostles and their successors and said things like:

Ignatius of Antioch (30-107 A. D. A disciple of the apostle John and Bishop of Antioch) in his Epistle to the Smyrnaens, Ch. VII: “Let Us Stand Aloof from Such Heretics” states; “They (the heretics) abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins,..”

He was taught by the John, the beloved disciple of Christ and, in this statement, he affirms the teaching of the apostles and Christ that the bread is Christ’s body.

Justin Martyr, the church’s first apologist, wrote in the first half of the 2nd century in his “The First Apology of Justin”, in Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist. In it he reports what he was taught as a new Christian by the church. That would mean that the teaching he received was already established in the church. It is not some later innovation by the Roman church but was a part of the teaching of the apostles who taught what they learned from Jesus. It is God’s inspired teaching to the church by His Son, through the apostles to the church. And here it is:

“And this food is called among us Eujcaristiva [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; ”and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood; ”and gave it to them alone.”

We can just ignore what John said and what the Church has always taught because we know better, right? OR do we?

Not to sound elitist or anything, but somewhere during my conversion from Baptist to Lutheran I realized that it takes a great deal of faith to move from a remembrance only position to real presence. I believe that when it comes right down to it, you can either spend your energy denying and arguing against what scripture clearly says, or you can embrace it in faith, praying for the holy spirit to build your faith and continue to reveal Christ to you through all the means he has chosen to use to come to us to forgive our sins and unite us with him.

We have all read the scriptural statements regarding the Sacraments. They are very clear, if contrary to our natural reason. Where the baptistic believers err is primarily in subjecting the words of scripture to human reason instead of letting our human reason be shaped and formed by the words of scripture. Also, as seen in this thread, emotions are used to judge truthfulness. If something elicits a negative emotion it must be bad or untrue. The Church has never taught a cannibalistic consumption of human flesh and blood, though the early church was accused of exactly this by pagan detractors. Yet our emotions have no value when it comes to evaluating truth claims. The truth is the truth, regardless of how it makes us feel. In dealing with Christ especially, our natural emotions would lead us in a completely different direction than to unity with Christ. Our natural mind is hostile to God, we cannot naturally understand spiritual things. Christ is a man of sorrows, unlovely and undesirable when viewed through our natural eyes. When we are converted by the Sprit, however, our perceptions are changed by viewing them through the eyes of faith.

It is a mystery how Christ gives us his body and blood to eat and drink through the common, ordinary elements of bread and wine, but as in all things, Christ has chosen to reveal himself in weakness and lowliness. He comes to us through his word attached to the simplest, most common elements: water, bread and wine. Yet these simple elements, when combined with the Word of God, the spoken promises of Our Lord, convey what they say. God's Word does what it says, no believer in Christ would deny this.

Tangible said:

Not to sound elitist or anything, but somewhere during my conversion from Baptist to Lutheran I realized that it takes a great deal of faith to move from a remembrance only position to real presence.

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I'd agree--especially if one is moving to the Lutheran POV which is almost as hard to accept as the Roman Catholic one, except for the "bread and wine cease to exist" part.

I believe that when it comes right down to it, you can either spend your energy denying and arguing against what scripture clearly says

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But, in truth, the memorialist position isn't that absurd or at odds with the written word, even if one concludes for the Real Presence as both of us do.

Not to sound elitist or anything, but somewhere during my conversion from Baptist to Lutheran I realized that it takes a great deal of faith to move from a remembrance only position to real presence. ..................... He comes to us through his word attached to the simplest, most common elements: water, bread and wine. Yet these simple elements, when combined with the Word of God, the spoken promises of Our Lord, convey what they say. God's Word does what it says, no believer in Christ would deny this.[/QUOTE]

Well Said. That is precisely the situation.

Rationally, it's just bread and wine (or grape juice for the temperance folk). Scripturally it is the Body and Blood of the Lord.

How that can be is a mystery. But we may find some help to understand from the example in scripture of the angel Gabriel's response to Mary's question, "How can that be since I have no husband?" (Luke 1)

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; ..."

In the Epiclesis (western: "consecration") the Holy Spirit comes upon the bread and wine to cause it to be the Body and blood of our Lord. That's our best attempt. Beyond that, it is a mystery.

Cappadocious said:

Context.

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An answer lacking context.
It has for some, become a magic word.
But it isn't.

Tangible said:

Not to sound elitist or anything, but somewhere during my conversion from Baptist to Lutheran I realized that it takes a great deal of faith to move from a remembrance only position to real presence. ..................... He comes to us through his word attached to the simplest, most common elements: water, bread and wine. Yet these simple elements, when combined with the Word of God, the spoken promises of Our Lord, convey what they say. God's Word does what it says, no believer in Christ would deny this.

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Well Said. That is precisely the situation.

Rationally, it's just bread and wine (or grape juice for the temperance folk). Scripturally it is the Body and Blood of the Lord.

How that can be is a mystery. But we may find some help to understand from the example in scripture of the angel Gabriel's response to Mary's question, "How can that be since I have no husband?" (Luke 1)

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; ..."

In the Epiclesis (western: "consecration") the Holy Spirit comes upon the bread and wine to cause it to be the Body and blood of our Lord. That's our best attempt. Beyond that, it is a mystery.[/QUOTE]

Metaphor is how, and it isn't a mystery.
The mystery is why people insist something fantastic and beyond the senses happens, and the tragedy is, that very sensationalism distracts many of us from the glorious meaning of the metaphor as well as the memory He asked for.

Interesting that you see Our Lord coming to us and giving to us in our bodies the very price of our redemption as a distraction from what's going on inside your own head. "Here is a check for a gazillion dollars made out to you." "Go away! I'm too busy visualizing a check for a gazillion dollars."

Tangible said:

Interesting that you see Our Lord coming to us and giving to us in our bodies the very price of our redemption as a distraction from what's going on inside your own head. "Here is a check for a gazillion dollars made out to you." "Go away! I'm too busy visualizing a check for a gazillion dollars."

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Yeah that was kinda what I was thinking when I read his post too. Well said.

Tangible said:

Interesting that you see Our Lord coming to us and giving to us in our bodies the very price of our redemption as a distraction from what's going on inside your own head. "Here is a check for a gazillion dollars made out to you." "Go away! I'm too busy visualizing a check for a gazillion dollars."

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But he did say this:

Rationally, it's just bread and wine (or grape juice for the temperance folk). Scripturally it is the Body and Blood of the Lord.

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What's to fight over with that?

<<The mystery is why people insist something fantastic and beyond the senses happens>>

The "people" who "insist" include Jesus and the entire Church since it's inception.

The ones who think it's "sensationalism" have been around since the beginning also.
(Jhn 6:60)

Albion said:

But he did say this:

What's to fight over with that?

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That he recognizes the real presence but still sees it as a distraction?

Tangible said:

That he recognizes the real presence but still sees it as a distraction?

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I wouldn't want to analyze our friend too much. My point was only that this statement from him, taken just as it stands, should be received favorably by people like you and me. We might have expected it to be further from our view than it is.

We could of course give him the third degree (sorry, Rick; I didn't plan to switch to Masonic terminology), but I didn't see any reason to do that.

<< That he recognizes the real presence but still sees it as a distraction?>>

In the light of Jesus' words ("Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you" John 6:53), saying that the "real presence" is a distraction is an act of refuting Jesus.

Even the words "real presence" is a compromise for those who have difficulty just accepting what Jesus said. (This IS my body; this IS my blood...)

jim

<<We are not eating Him >>

So you don't believe Jesus meant what He said.

Too bad.

Tangible said:

Interesting that you see Our Lord coming to us and giving to us in our bodies the very price of our redemption as a distraction from what's going on inside your own head. "Here is a check for a gazillion dollars made out to you." "Go away! I'm too busy visualizing a check for a gazillion dollars."

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Fascinating that you would isolate my head from my heart and spin snarky with cheap sentimentality as high enough ground for smug condemnation.

fatherjimparker said:

<<We are not eating Him >>

So you don't believe Jesus meant what He said.

Too bad.

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So you can't process metaphor.
So sad.