This is for all the Evolutionists

[Tomk80]

and also what is your mechanism when an animal quickly changes color???? or mimics a background? or morphs his body structure because of a predator? Your theory is FULL OF HOLES!!!!!!!!!

Any theory is. I prefer to go with what is actually known and in evidence. For example, we know what changes the color of the skin of a cameleon. It is a purely chemical process, I'm afraid.

With further technological advances, we now know more about chromatophores and chameleon skin properties. Chameleon skin is now known to have three types of chromatophore cells. The deepest layer of chromatophore cells, which are what was described by Milne-Edwards, are melanophores which contain black pigment. These cells have an array of branches spreading toward the surface of the skin called dendrites or dentritic processes. Located just above the melanophores are guanophores, also known as iridophores, which are responsible for blue colors as light reflects off the colorless guanine crystal platelets within them. The uppermost layer of chromatophore cells are xanthophores which are responsible for the yellow and red pigmentations. The granules of pigment within chromatophore cells selectively reflect and absorb certain wavelengths of light. In melanophores, these pigment granules are capable of differentially spreading within the dentritic processes altering their concentrations within the skin and the interactions they have with light reflecting off other pigments. With exhibition of different concentrations of each pigment, the external coloration we see changes. The actions of these chromatophores are synchronized by neurological and hormonal control mechanisms that respond to stimulus from the central nervous system as it obtains feedback from skin receptors and various other sensory organs.

Other creatures will have other mechanisms. Some we understand, some we don't. What we do know supports the theory of evolution, what we don't know can neither support it nor debunk it. It is unknown.

 

[supersport]

Any theory is. I prefer to go with what is actually known and in evidence. For example, we know what changes the color of the skin of a cameleon. It is a purely chemical process, I'm afraid.


Other creatures will have other mechanisms. Some we understand, some we don't. What we do know supports the theory of evolution, what we don't know can neither support it nor debunk it. It is unknown.

it's not only chameleons, but everything is adaptive. Many fish and lizards and insects can do exactly what the chameleons do. You call it a chemical reaction, or whatever, but the fact is your evolutionary "adaptation" hypothesis is false.

 

[supersport]

http://www.bigskycichlids.com/coloration_article.htmWhat if You Turned the Color of the Food You Eat?
Birds usually make their own pigments, but sometimes they get them from their food. So a change in diet can sometimes change a bird's color. Some orioles look more red or yellow than normal, and tanagers may look orange, when their diets have more or less of some fruits. Waxwings usually have a bright yellow band at the tip of their tails, but diet can turn this orange. If flamingoes don't eat enough shrimp, they can't produce the pigment that makes their feathers so pink and they become white

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/oriole/FeathersSoFine.html

 

[supersport]

http://www.paw-talk.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19890

Hey all! I'm Ashley. I recently got a hamster from my bio teacher and it turned colors!! When i got it it was light brownish. 2 weeks later it is white on it's tummy and gray every where else! is that weird or what?! I don't think he's sick because he's still active and looks pretty happy. I'm just wondering if this is normal! Thanks!
~!~AsH~!~

 

[Tomk80]

strawman....I never claimed the red fox adapts the same as anything. I said ALL animals are individually adaptive. PERIOD.

No, you also made specific statements that made their adaptive properties all inclusive. This is all based on your own statements. On the red fox, you specifically claimed that it probably would turn white like the arctic fox if it would be north long enough.

In fact, for your whole little theory to work, individual foxes need to be able to adapt to the whole range of ecosystems, from the cold north to the warm equator. Your whole little proposition as anyone can gleam it from the OP, is that such changes are not genetic, but through individual animals adapting to their environment. That was still your thesis at the OP. You specifically asked why their would be a need for adaptation through genetic changes in the population even. Your OP mentions the similarity between hox genes of mice and insects, claiming that this supports adaptation rather then evolution.

If the above is not your proposition, how can you still stand by your OP. What do you actually mean, in that case? Have you even thought further then that you will 'humiliate evolution', as you so succinctly put it in another thread of yours?

If you do not think that individual adaptation can go as far as you previously claimed, haven't you actually answered your own question for the need of 'populational adaptation' already?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

does anyone have a link to a good paper on the genetics of arctic fox coat color?

looks like a MCR1 interaction with several color generating pigments(1). but i haven't found much more than that.

curious minds are interested if it(the seasonal coat color change) is stimulated by temperature of length of daylight.

tia

notes:
1-

The generally recognised color series (loci) in dogs are called A (agouti), B (brown), C (albino series), D (blue dilution) E (extension), G (graying), M (merle), R (roaning), S (white spotting) and T (ticking.)

from: http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html

the best single paper on canid coat color i found so far.

another one at:
http://www.kursus.kvl.dk/shares/vetgen/_Popgen/genetics/11/0.htm
better introduction to the pigmentation process itself.

 

[supersport]

Hi Dave and Carol,
Many koi are notorious for color changes. Kohakus (red/white) are known for having the red fade over time, and showas and sankes (red/black/white) can do the same. The rule of thumb is that red wil tend to be stable or fade and black will tend to increase as a koi ages. Factors such as food, fish genetics, sun exposure, water chemistry and stress wil also affect color stability.

http://www.mpks.org/faq/ans128.shtml

 

[Tomk80]

it's not only chameleons, but everything is adaptive. Many fish and lizards and insects can do exactly what the chameleons do. You call it a chemical reaction, or whatever, but the fact is your evolutionary "adaptation" hypothesis is false.

Based on what? Yes, everything is adaptive to a certain extent. And nobody denies it. So what is your point, supersport? I'm getting horribly confused at what your point actually is, other than 'evolution is tha devil111!!111

 

[Chalnoth]

it's not only chameleons, but everything is adaptive. Many fish and lizards and insects can do exactly what the chameleons do. You call it a chemical reaction, or whatever, but the fact is your evolutionary "adaptation" hypothesis is false.

Um, the fact that many creatures sport similar adaptations is predicted by evolution. Anyway, this is by far the coolest example of environment mimicry I know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckP8msIgMYE

But there's nothing here to suggest that evolution can't explain these things. The simple fact that all octopi and squids (to my knowledge) are capable of rapid color changing is the exact sort of thing that you expect from evolution (which would say that they all descend from some common ancestor that could change its color, something that would be verifiable from genetic and fossil evidence, and probably has been verified).

 

[Tomk80]

Hi Dave and Carol,
Many koi are notorious for color changes. Kohakus (red/white) are known for having the red fade over time, and showas and sankes (red/black/white) can do the same. The rule of thumb is that red wil tend to be stable or fade and black will tend to increase as a koi ages. Factors such as food, fish genetics, sun exposure, water chemistry and stress wil also affect color stability.

http://www.mpks.org/faq/ans128.shtml

Relevance?

 

[supersport]

No, you also made specific statements that made their adaptive properties all inclusive. This is all based on your own statements. On the red fox, you specifically claimed that it probably would turn white like the arctic fox if it would be north long enough.

In fact, for your whole little theory to work, individual foxes need to be able to adapt to the whole range of ecosystems, from the cold north to the warm equator. Your whole little proposition as anyone can gleam it from the OP, is that such changes are not genetic, but through individual animals adapting to their environment. That was still your thesis at the OP. You specifically asked why their would be a need for adaptation through genetic changes in the population even. Your OP mentions the similarity between hox genes of mice and insects, claiming that this supports adaptation rather then evolution.

If the above is not your proposition, how can you still stand by your OP. What do you actually mean, in that case? Have you even thought further then that you will 'humiliate evolution', as you so succinctly put it in another thread of yours?

If you do not think that individual adaptation can go as far as you previously claimed, haven't you actually answered your own question for the need of 'populational adaptation' already?

I am not a biologist or any other kind of "ist"...I have no idea how every specific animal is adaptive. but the fact is, I have yet to come across one yet that is not adaptive upon an environmental change. The red fox evidently grows a thicker, redder coat in the winter. Quite honestly, if that fox was transported to the arctic circle permenantly I'd be willing to bet that it WOULD turn white...and it would happen fast. But where are these tests? Hmmmmmmmmmm??????????

 

[supersport]

Um, the fact that many creatures sport similar adaptations is predicted by evolution. Anyway, this is by far the coolest example of environment mimicry I know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckP8msIgMYE

But there's nothing here to suggest that evolution can't explain these things. The simple fact that all octopi and squids (to my knowledge) are capable of rapid color changing is the exact sort of thing that you expect from evolution (which would say that they all descend from some common ancestor that could change its color, something that would be verifiable from genetic and fossil evidence, and probably has been verified).

what you just said dismantles Toe's adaptation through population hypothesis.

 

[Chalnoth]

what you just said dismantles Toe's adaptation through population hypothesis.

Haha, no it doesn't! Adaptation is how these creatures obtained the ability to change their color in the first place!

 

[JedPerkins]

what you just said dismantles Toe's adaptation through population hypothesis.

How? Population adaptation over time (evolution) directly effects the range of adaptability of an individual (this adaptability is conferred through regulating gene expression and through how proteins/lipids/etc react to changes in the environment). All this means is that you don't know what you are talking about when you babble on about adaptation.

 

[supersport]

Haha, no it doesn't! Adaptation is how these creatures obtained the ability to change their color in the first place!

so...yes or no....do animals nowdays require populational adaptation or not?

 

[Tomk80]

does anyone have a link to a good paper on the genetics of arctic fox coat color?

looks like a MCR1 interaction with several color generating pigments(1). but i haven't found much more than that.

curious minds are interested if it(the seasonal coat color change) is stimulated by temperature of length of daylight.

tia

notes:
1-

from: http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html

the best single paper on canid coat color i found so far.

This one may also be interesting:
Two cysteine substitutions in the MC1R generate the blue variant of the arctic fox (Alopex lagopus) and prevent expression of the white winter coat.
What it essentially says, is that there are two variants of the arctic fox, one that changes color and one that doesn't. The difference between the two is the MC1R-gene, that has two substitutions (yes, I know, the title is kind of a give-away) which prevents the color changing mechanism from working. Apparantly other coat colors are also influenced by differences in the MC1R-gene or it's regulatory region.

I haven't found anything on the specific mechanism of coat color change yet, unfortunately. I'm wondering whether they would have found out already. Foxes seem to be hard to keep in prison, so they aren't exactly ideal to perform experiments with.

 

[JedPerkins]

so...yes or no....do animals nowdays require populational adaptation or not?

Require it? "Populational adaptation or death!" I still pick cake. Whether or not they "require it", it is still happening.

 

[supersport]

This one may also be interesting:
Two cysteine substitutions in the MC1R generate the blue variant of the arctic fox (Alopex lagopus) and prevent expression of the white winter coat.
What it essentially says, is that there are two variants of the arctic fox, one that changes color and one that doesn't. The difference between the two is the MC1R-gene, that has two substitutions (yes, I know, the title is kind of a give-away) which prevents the color changing mechanism from working. Apparantly other coat colors are also influenced by differences in the MC1R-gene or it's regulatory region.

I haven't found anything on the specific mechanism of coat color change yet, unfortunately. I'm wondering whether they would have found out already. Foxes seem to be hard to keep in prison, so they aren't exactly ideal to perform experiments with.

hey...why is it so hard for you guys to believe that coat color can change quickly when it's known that probably only one gene (or a few genes) are involved in pigmentation/fur color?

 

[supersport]

Require it? "Populational adaptation or death!" I still pick cake. Whether or not they "require it", it is still happening.

Jed...do you believe that it requires an accidental mutation to change fur color?

 

[supersport]

Jed...do you believe that it requires an accidental mutation to change fur color?

anyone else can join in and answer this question as well....