This is all rather bewildering...

[Caedmon]

Ok, I've seen this and that, deep issues and not-so-deep issues, and pure abysses. How do you ever figure this stuff out? How do you ever figure out just who is right, and what the Church teaches? How can you possibly compare the churches, when each one uses it's own paradigm that differs so drastically from the others that it sets each in its own private intellectual, theological "universe"? Just how deep into the "rabbit hole" do you have to go? When can you stop worrying? I mean, for me, it's like a crumbling cliff, that I just can't stop kicking the rocks loose from, and I slip and have to keep grappling and kicking, and so on, and so forth, etc etc, ad infinitum. How far do you have to look to understand exactly what the Church teaches as opposed to other churches and how all of that makes her the "one true Church" that Christ established from the beginning? When do the rebuttals cease? When does the confusion end? Sorry guys, I'm just feeling really down and frustrated right now. *sniff*

/me wishes for simpler times way back when...

 

[The Squalid Wanderer]

Joe, how deep do you want to go? I'm not being light hearted here, it's an honest and very serious question.

I have made it my life's passion to find the bottom of this "rabbit hole". It's why I'm here even though I'm not Catholic. It's why I maintain contact with Reformed and Orthodox forums as well. It's why I've read Presbyterian, Lutheran, Orthodox and Catholic materials and it's why I'm on my fifth Church history set.

I am willing to try and help you if you want to go deeper. I'm not an expert, but I feel like I've been (and very well may end up again, only God knows) where you are and would like to help.

Here's my e-mail: *moderator edit* PM Squalid for his email address.  Please do not post your email address in the forum for all to see.  Thanks, Reformationist

 

[VOW]

To Joe:

Catholicism is as deep as you want it to be.

I've told you my beginnings. I let the Holy Spirit guide me. I found Matthew Chapter 16, where Jesus said, "You are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Church." And I saw that the name Peter means "rock."

It can be as simple as that.

But I'll say this: the more you dig, the more you find. There is a WEALTH of information, just stretch out your hands to the Holy Spirit, and He will fill them to a measure overflowing.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

I agree with them Joe, the faith can be as deep or as shallow as you want. As for which Church is right, why not just go by the Church that existed since Christ and that Jesus said He would protect? Its pretty simple actually.

 

[Wolseley]

Joe, don't freak. Don't despair. Don't get discouraged or depressed.

The only way anybody ever becomes Catholic is through God's grace. You can read rebuttals and counter-rebuttals for the rest of your life, but unless God grants you the grace to comprehend the teachings of the Catholic Faith, you won't grasp it.

If you can't figure it all out right now, it's possible that it's because you're where God wants you to be at this particular junction in your life: a believing non-Catholic Christian who is investigating Catholicism.

You're not alone in this, fella. Sometimes it takes years, sometimes decades for somebody to come into the Church. Look at Cardinal Newman, for example. He didn't just up one day and say, "I'm coverting to Catholicism." Look at the people in Madrid's Surprised By Truth books---some of those people spent years gathering information before God decided their time was right.

I think you're pressuring yourself to make a decision that you don't neccesarily have to make right this instant. Are you a faithful believer in Christ? Good. Do you attend services in your home church? Superlative. Are you interested enough in Catholicism that you want to investigate it further? Outstanding. All you need to do now is continue investigating, continue going to church, pray for understanding, ask for God's grace, and RELAX.

God will grant you perfect understanding of all this in good course; but when He thinks the time is right. Remember, we're operating on His timetable in all this, not our own.

If you ever want to discuss this futher, feel free to PM or E-mail me at any time.

 

[Caedmon]

Boy, I was hurting this morning. I was so flustered up(southern term) inside, and really aggravated with things. I'm trying to find my spirituality, and I've got all this school stuff going on, and trying to adjust to living away home. Oh, it's all so frustrating! But as I changed classes this morning, I held onto my Rosary in my pocket and, well I couldn't really pray because I didn't know how to say it, but I just pushed my heart out to God, and let Him see the pain I was feeling inside. It was all I could do. And after a while, I felt as though Jesus was saying to me, "Child, don't hurt so much inside. You can't possibly do all these things at once. Let me help you. I know how much you're hurting inside, and I love you very much. I know what you're going through and I will have mercy on you. Rest in me precious one, I will not let you go. Take one step my sweet child, that's all you need. I will take care of the rest."

 

[Caedmon]

I love you all dearly.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Good luck Joe. Just try and chill and realize that there is no rush.

 

[isshinwhat]

God bless you, Joe.

 

 

 

[isshinwhat]

Joe, the biggest... release... that I had came when I stopped trying to figure out what I believed about God, and began to pay attention to what He had revealed to me. It took the pressure off of me and allowed me to rest in His arms. I've posted this passage before, and I'll post it again. Origen's imagery in this passage is beautiful.

No one can apprehend the meaning of [the Gospel] except he have lain on Jesus' breast and received from Jesus Mary to be his mother also. Such a one must he become who is to be another John, and to have shown to him, by Jesus Himself, as John was, Jesus as He is.

It isn't about our belief, but what Jesus shows us as we lay our head on His breast and become His beloved disciple.

Deus in adjutorium meum intende,

Neal

 

[Caedmon]

No one can apprehend the meaning of [the Gospel] except he have lain on Jesus' breast and received from Jesus Mary to be his mother also. Such a one must he become who is to be another John, and to have shown to him, by Jesus Himself, as John was, Jesus as He is.

Ya know, the first time I saw you post this, I really didn't understand it at all. And to be truthful, it's still kind of vague for me. But I think I understand the gist of it. Basically, as I understand it... is it saying that if I take Mary as my mother, that I will be as close to Jesus as was John, "the disciple whom Jesus loved"? But yes, I do like the imagery. I can do nothing but cast myself onto his breast and weep profusely. That's how I'm feeling right now. I'm just so tired, tired, tired... I can't carry myself. I need Him to hold me. That's the only way I'm going to be able to keep going. If there's one thing that I've learned recently, it's that I can't possibly survive without Him.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Take a break Joe, you dont want to get burned out and unable to defend yourself when Satan comes to your door.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Deus in adjutorium meum intende

Domine ad adjuvandum me festina.

 

[isshinwhat]

What I got out of it, Joe, was put your head on Jesus' breast and He will give you all He has to give. His mother, His Spirit, eternal life, peace and guidance, are all ours, simply because He loved us. If we just abandon ourselves to Christ, Jesus will reveal Himself to us "as He is." There is no discerning of belief, only learning what has been revealed. The trust is placed in the Holy Spirit, not in ourselves. To be honest I didn't want the Pope to be infallible, Purgatory to be real, nor did I want to believe a miracle happened at every Mass. That put things way out of my control. My reality wasn't what I wanted it to be... it was what was revealed through Christ. Suddenly He became ever-present in a very real way. I experienced for the first time what it was like to have God in every part of my life. Jesus wasn't in the clouds anymore. He wasn't some being who was theologically different than the Father, but still invisible. He was present to me in Confession and the Eucharist. I lived His life through the Church calendar as we celebrated His Holy Days as a family. He blesses me through the prayer of the Sign of the Cross, and He teaches me surely through the Magesterium. All of this because I became another John... another beloved disciple who did but lay my head upon His breast.

You, too, have laid your head on His breast, Joe. Now listen to His words, "Be not afraid."  Catholic or not, you are His beloved disciple.  I mean the Pope doesn't add Christ's Baptism to the Rosary for just anyobody, Joe. 

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
What I got out of it, Joe, was put your head on Jesus' breast and He will give you all He has to give. His mother, His Spirit, eternal life, peace and guidance, are all ours, simply because He loved us. If we just abandon ourselves to Christ, Jesus will reveal Himself to us "as He is." There is no discerning of belief, only learning what has been revealed. The trust is placed in the Holy Spirit, not in ourselves. To be honest I didn't want the Pope to be infallible, Purgatory to be real, nor did I want to believe a miracle happened at every Mass. That put things way out of my control. My reality wasn't what I wanted it to be... it was what was revealed through Christ. Suddenly He became ever-present in a very real way. I experienced for the first time what it was like to have God in every part of my life. Jesus wasn't in the clouds anymore. He wasn't some being who was theologically different than the Father, but still invisible. He was present to me in Confession and the Eucharist. I lived His life through the Church calendar as we celebrated His Holy Days as a family. He blesses me through the prayer of the Sign of the Cross, and He teaches me surely through the Magesterium. All of this because I became another John... another beloved disciple who did but lay my head upon His breast.

You, too, have laid your head on His breast, Joe. Now listen to His words, "Be not afraid."

God Bless,

Neal

But I am afraid. I mean no offense by it. I can't help it. You see, as soon as something becomes "too hard", it is all too easy to resign from it. And what would I be the worse? a protestant? nondenominational? I hear that all these with true and contrite souls will be saved. How should I treat my tossed mind and soul? Should I lash it into submission under a certain church? What is to prevent me from floating here and there? When I become something different, the paradigm changes, and so does the judgment. What do I make of this... a hopeless relativity? a degenerate compass? So many things, so many churches are there... I grow weary. This is what drives many souls away, and torments the ones already present. As a philosophy teacher of mine once rebutted, "Even if I did want to become a Christian, I wouldn't know what kind of Christian to be." There is such an uncertainty in everything approachable within Christianity. There are so many avenues to tread out. And what if I communicated with, say, the LDS? What would the LDS say? Probably, "Just let go and let God[and believe in all our doctrines on faith]" Now, I am in no way comparing the Catholic Church to the LDS, but you can see my fear is not unfounded. I wish it was easier, I really do. But life, as I have discovered, is not an open, clear door... it is a devastating alternation between towering peaks and yawning valleys.(at least for me) And please forgive me for "unloading" here... I just do not have anyone else. I have no one to talk to. *sigh* Oh well, that's enough for this rant. I'd better stop and let the blood flow back into my head for a bit...

 

[Avila]

HJ - don't think so hard. I know, it isn't easy to do. I wish peace to your weary mind.

In many ways, I see that committing to a particular church is a lot like getting married. You are taking a great step of faith to say that this is the one true church, and it is a great step to say that your spouse is your forever mate. After you get married, you still question yourself. "Did I do the right thing by marrying Poly (just my example)?" "How can I be sure that he is 'The One'?" They are good questions to have, because it shows that you are thinking. However, my best advice is to continue to pray and ask that God show you and give you peace about your decision.

 

[VOW]

To Joe:

The key to your dilemma was something, I think all converts investigating the faith wonder. I did. And again, I thought, "Why go with all the *afterthoughts*?" I knew that the Catholic Church considered itself to be the first Christian Church. And I heard how a LOT of the Protestant churches say, "You go to OUR CHURCH, or you're going to Hell!"

So, I made a mental list of all the "problems" I had with the Catholic Church. And believe me, these so-called problems are the typical list of misconceptions we see every day, right on this board. Number One on my list was, "The Pope." You think of Catholics, you think of the Pope. Why is the Pope so doggone important. Who died and made him king?

Jesus did.

And I went to Scripture and the Holy Spirit stuck my nose right up against, "You are PETER and upon this Rock I will build My Church."

That was a great big DUH.

Quit thinking about what OTHERS will say or do, Joe. You aren't getting into Heaven riding on someone else's coattail.

Keep learning. That's all you CAN do. Because the day you STOP learning is the day you die.

And keep Neal's words in mind:

I mean the Pope doesn't add Christ's Baptism to the Rosary for just anyobody, Joe.

Because there is no such thing as a "coincidence."


We love you too.
~VOW

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by VOW
To Joe:

The key to your dilemma was something, I think all converts investigating the faith wonder. I did. And again, I thought, "Why go with all the *afterthoughts*?" I knew that the Catholic Church considered itself to be the first Christian Church. And I heard how a LOT of the Protestant churches say, "You go to OUR CHURCH, or you're going to Hell!"

So, I made a mental list of all the "problems" I had with the Catholic Church. And believe me, these so-called problems are the typical list of misconceptions we see every day, right on this board. Number One on my list was, "The Pope." You think of Catholics, you think of the Pope. Why is the Pope so doggone important. Who died and made him king?

Jesus did.

And I went to Scripture and the Holy Spirit stuck my nose right up against, "You are PETER and upon this Rock I will build My Church."

That was a great big DUH.

Quit thinking about what OTHERS will say or do, Joe. You aren't getting into Heaven riding on someone else's coattail.

Keep learning. That's all you CAN do. Because the day you STOP learning is the day you die.

It's hard to explain what I'm feeling... I feel as though I'm clinging to a mast in the middle of hurricane, the sail ripped and shredded, whipping all around me, the rain beating so hard I can't open my eyes to see. (Why is it that every time I describe how I feel, it automatically has a Biblical reference? lol) Anyways...

And keep Neal's words in mind:

I mean the Pope doesn't add Christ's Baptism to the Rosary for just anyobody, Joe.

Because there is no such thing as a "coincidence."


We love you too.
~VOW

I kind of have mixed feelings about that. I don't understand how this worked out. I know that the Pope probably didn't change the Rosary for the first time in centuries just for me personally, lol. But the way issh said it -- "I mean the Pope doesn't add Christ's Baptism to the Rosary for just anyobody, Joe." -- makes me want to believe in it that way. *sigh* Anyway, I did ask about it just a week or so before this was announced. I don't understand, but I like to think it may have meant something. I want to believe in miracles. I don't want to discredit an act of God. It's just hard sometimes. Our world is so mundane, and our people, even some Christians, are so dismal and despairing. If some had it their way, the world would be reduced to a grand mechanical clockwork Deism, where Jesus is a rockstar comic book hero that exists in the hearts of wild-eyed children, and nothing more(although they won't admit they believe as such, out of "respect"). But my heart just won't let me believe that God doesn't move anymore. My heart won't let me believe that God doesn't reveal Himself.

 

[VOW]

Oh, Joe!

How can you NOT believe, LOL? I'm SMILING right now, at the very thought of it. I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands of other people on this earth who were also given a Divine "thump on the head" by the actions of His Holiness. That still does not lessen the moment for you.

You remind me of that old, old joke where a man is caught in a terrible flood. He prays to God, saying, "Save me." And he is fully confident that God will answer his prayer.

A neighbor comes by in a rowboat. "Jump in, we have room!"

The man is on his front porch. "No, thanks, Brother. God will save me, He promised!"

The sheriff comes by in a power boat. "We're evacuating, Buddy. The water is still rising!"

The man sticks his head out the second floor window. "Thanks anyway, but God is going to save me!"

Finally, we see the man clinging to the top of his roof. A helicopter from the National Guard lowers a rope. The man yells at the top of his lungs: "I'm staying here, because GOD is going to save me!"

The flood waters finally wash over the top of the man's house, and he drowns.

Well, a very soaked, very ANGRY man storms through the Pearly Gates and stomps in squishy steps up to the Throne of God. With hands on his hips, he blows the wet hair from his face and says, "God! How COULD you? You PROMISED to save me!"

God looks at him carefully and says, "Hey, I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"

The message to YOU, Joe, is this: Just what WILL it take?

Your apprehension of the Rosary, and the recent actions of John Paul II look an AWFUL lot like a helicopter to me!



Peace and much love,
~VOW

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by VOW
Oh, Joe!

How can you NOT believe, LOL? I'm SMILING right now, at the very thought of it. I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands of other people on this earth who were also given a Divine "thump on the head" by the actions of His Holiness. That still does not lessen the moment for you.

Heeeyyyyy... sorta like the "Close Encounters" kind of thing? No, no, but seriously... it does give me a "spark" of sorts, ya know?

The message to YOU, Joe, is this: Just what WILL it take?

Your apprehension of the Rosary, and the recent actions of John Paul II look an AWFUL lot like a helicopter to me!

I guess that's just my upbringing popping through. We weren't taught to NOT believe in miracles, but it wasn't discussed seriously either. I kind of see the Catholic Church as a "miracle" Church, because she actually at least gives her people a chance to believe in miracles. I guess the thing is, that I've just been made so blind to it, that I can't see it staring me in the face.

Ya know, protestants, southern baptists esp, are ALWAYS talking about a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ! not religion, A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP!!!", and yet this thing here... this looks kind of personal to me. Another funny thing... I talked to a Catholic lady one time on campus at my other college. She was the sponsor for the Catholic Student Association, and she was telling me about why she liked her Catholic faith. She said, "I like it a lot. I feel like it's personalized, just for me." I was like... ... duh, duh-DANG-duh duh!!! *shakes off a triple take* That was absolute craziness for me at the time. Anyways, I'm trying VOW. It's hard for me to understand it as a miracle, as in, like, supernatural super-powerful almighty kind of stuff. I mean, there was no miraculous hand scribbling the new mysteries on the wall for me, lol. But I can't discount it either. It's got to mean something, even if I don't know what that thing is(or either I'm just not ready to handle it yet, I don't know) Now see, if we protestants had a system like the Church's, we could verify miracles! lol... That would be sooooo much easier, lol. Wait... no... it would still end up lasting a decade or too... decade... Rosary... buh-doom, tsss... pun was unintentional... batteries not included... all warranties void after purchase... do not pass vamos, do not collect two hundred pesos...

(now see kiddies? this is why you shouldn't drink caffeine... trust unkie joe, he knows best, k?)