This could have been posted in the proofs or disproof section but I know for a fact..

[Sojourner<><]

I havent come to that conclusion myself at all. I am describing from personal experience what is very commonly believed by others. Describing this type of irrational thinking is the driving force behind my conclusion of there being no god in the sense that many see god as being.

Now what is true about that is the fact that we are not perfect and neither is earth. The thing that is false would be believing that God doesnt take this into consideration when we fail in our life. Assuming your one who see's god as being an actual being or consienceness, And this is believed by more people than you may think.

I cant assume what everybody here believes, therefore consider that I am speaking of the vast majority of people who follow the bible, not everybody.

Its suggested this way every day in church, in movies, in social groups ive been in, even in our music. You have to understand that it is very commonly believed, especially by the christians, that god decided after making us weak and frail to then give us life choices to make. This would be ok if it didnt involve the gloomy fate for those who make choices that are perhaps self destructive and lead us away from god as I have said before.

Ok, but what if the majority of Christians don't really believe that way? It seems like you've gotten a 'feel' for mainstream beliefs through osmosis in your surrounding culture. Take for instance some historical figure in history, whoever you want. Would it be better to learn about him or her by listening to your friends and watching movies, etc., or by reading the history books? It seems to me that the latter method would do a much better job. The same applies to Jesus. If you want to understand the truth behind the chaos you need to read the Bible. That way you'll have a sounder foundation from which you can base your argument. Now, I realize that you have some Bible reading under your belt already, and that's good. However, there's something very wrong with your statement that I quoted in my last post:

Mind you that he makes us imperfect, puts us here in an imperfect world, proceeds to give us choices, then punishes us for making the wrong ones.

You are right in that we are not perfect and neither is the Earth. However, according to the Bible, when He made us and the Earth He said that it was good. So, if God, being perfectly good, said that His creation was 'good', does it imply that we were made imperfect and were placed into an imperfect world? I feel that the wording implies the exact opposite. Perhaps He did not create us to be perfect in the same sense that He is perfect since we were still fallable, but I believe it implies that we and the Earth were a perfect creation. What then is the source of all this perceived imperfection? It is the fall which was an indirect consequence of Lucifer's rebellion in Heaven, and that boils down to the fact that our current situation is not as it was created to be. Now, God has already proved Himself to be good in creating a perfect creation whether or not He knew it would fall. After all, it wasn't Him who caused it to happen. At this point He would be perfectly just to let everything reap its own reward as a consequence of our fallen natures. However, since God is perfectly good, He sees us in our situation and He loves us and has compassion for us. But how can you know this with the concept of God's imminent judgement lurking around the corner? You can know this by believing that He became a man and took that consequence upon Himself on the cross so that we might not have to face it, which killed Him, but he rose again because He is God and His life is limitless. And this life He offers freely to anyone who will take it. Now if that is a picture of a heartless God then love has no meaning.

If you think I'm wrong, I'd like to invite you to form a rebuttal based on Biblical scripture since we are, after all, discussing the God of the Bible aren't we?

 

[mikenet2006]

Ok, but what if the majority of Christians don't really believe that way? It seems like you've gotten a 'feel' for mainstream beliefs through osmosis in your surrounding culture. Take for instance some historical figure in history, whoever you want. Would it be better to learn about him or her by listening to your friends and watching movies, etc., or by reading the history books? It seems to me that the latter method would do a much better job. The same applies to Jesus. If you want to understand the truth behind the chaos you need to read the Bible. That way you'll have a sounder foundation from which you can base your argument. Now, I realize that you have some Bible reading under your belt already, and that's good. However, there's something very wrong with your statement that I quoted in my last post:

You are right in that we are not perfect and neither is the Earth. However, according to the Bible, when He made us and the Earth He said that it was good. So, if God, being perfectly good, said that His creation was 'good', does it imply that we were made imperfect and were placed into an imperfect world? I feel that the wording implies the exact opposite. Perhaps He did not create us to be perfect in the same sense that He is perfect since we were still fallable, but I believe it implies that we and the Earth were a perfect creation. What then is the source of all this perceived imperfection? It is the fall which was an indirect consequence of Lucifer's rebellion in Heaven, and that boils down to the fact that our current situation is not as it was created to be. Now, God has already proved Himself to be good in creating a perfect creation whether or not He knew it would fall. After all, it wasn't Him who caused it to happen. At this point He would be perfectly just to let everything reap its own reward as a consequence of our fallen natures. However, since God is perfectly good, He sees us in our situation and He loves us and has compassion for us. But how can you know this with the concept of God's imminent judgement lurking around the corner? You can know this by believing that He became a man and took that consequence upon Himself on the cross so that we might not have to face it, which killed Him, but he rose again because He is God and His life is limitless. And this life He offers freely to anyone who will take it. Now if that is a picture of a heartless God then love has no meaning.

If you think I'm wrong, I'd like to invite you to form a rebuttal based on Biblical scripture since we are, after all, discussing the God of the Bible aren't we?

I was A christian for four years i've meat catholics, baptice, methadist. I use to let Jahova witnesses come into my house and speak there mind. I havent read all of the bible but ive read enough. Put another way, I have talked to hundreds of people, some who I got to know well. Also mind you that these people were met in two diferent states over 500 miles apart. Now this is how I know what is thought my most, probably about 75% of the people ive met in fact. Now only after all this is considered do I make assumptions. In fact I can very well see why people go with this method because I heard prearchers in church suggesting it, as well as what ive personally gathered from the bible.

Remember when Adam and Eve were cast from "utopia on earth" as I like to call it. That place they were cast to ""still on earth mind you"" is what you see around you everyday and nothing here has been perfect since the ""garden of eden"" and that goes for us as well. This is more than thorughly described in Genesis as well as other parts of the bible. According to the bible yes there was a time when things were supposidly perfect, but it hasnt been that way in a long long time.


So when I said He makes us imperfect, puts us in an imperfect world, gives us choices, then supposidly punnishes us for eternity for making bad ones ""if they are not forgiven by death that is, meaning you have to correct your ways""

I said all this because its not only backed by people ive meet, its also backed biblically, and the part about us and the world being imperfect is also backed from a scieientific standpoint, its good you do understand that part soujouner.

So it looks like this is true to me. With knowladge of our imperfections, we are placed here in a post garden of eden evironment. The extents of its imperfections are described well in Genesis if anybody here is still confused about earth and man being imperfect.

So after this what happens? Would god give reward only for those who abide in him? Heven or eternal life is your apparent reward for taking your free will and making good decisions that lead to continued beliefe, lucky you.

Would god therefore alow anyting but the truth to be known? After reading the varied comments here its obvious nobody knows whats going on ""that wasnt ment to be insulting and it isnt surprising to see so many interpretations of one man written book"". Nearly all religions include a hell. The ones who follow the bible that dont beleive in hell believe punishment to be eternal death. This still shows to me a lack of intersest in our wellbeing as far as im concerned. Its like god pulled a Willy Wonker on us. If you get a golden ticket come on into the factory of heaven where there is eternal youth and happeness.

What if when you get there, there is further temtaition ""a chocolate river, or forbidden chewing gum? This wasnt explained in the bible obviously but it demonstrates the logic behind a religion based on reward.

Im going to tell you a bit about a story I once saw that had great meaning to me. It was actually a twilight zone episode Where a man went out one evening hunting with his dog whom he loved as much as a person. I think what happened was the dog was drowning after falling in a river while chaising a coon
and the man jumped in to save his dog and they both drowned in the process.

So they show him and his dog in the afterlife walking down a long dusty road when they finnaly come to this gate and above it says Heaven, there is a single man out front who greets the newcomer with politeness and a friendly smile. Saying this is heaven and behind this gate awaits god and paradise. The old man says wow sounds great but if
I go through there can I take my dog with me. The man at the gate says ohh no im sorry but there are no dogs alowed in the kingdom of heaven. After feeling crushed, they talk for a bit and the old man considers going in while the man at the gate continues to encorage the old man not to be afraid. Finnaly the old man ask what is further down the road. The man at the gate says that it is eternity road and it goes on forever. Once you start walking down eternity road there is no turning back. The man at the gate then says please wont you join us here, mabey you can talk to god to see if your dog can come in for a little bit.

Finnaly the old man rejects the idea of going inside and starts walking down the long dirt road with his beloved dog, probably thinking to himself that if his dog wasnt worthy enough for heaven than neither was he. Makes sense to me.

Anyway after a while he comes to another gate with a man standing out front. The man in front the gate says hello and welcome to heaven. Scatching his head the old man says, well I just come from another gate with a man and he said heaven was through them gates. The man in front the gate then says ohhh no, no, no that wasnt heaven that was Hell, and that man you saw was the devil. In heaven all of gods creatures are welcome. So you and your dog are both welcome to come on in.

Well aparently eternal life, or heaven is not for everybody. Whether its a place or a state of mind and wether god is a consciecness, or the love that fills the universe. Mostly you here belive that it is a place for some. A place for the strong, and a place where the belivers are seperated from the ones who choose not to believe. You know what? I would have walked on as well.

Unlike many I worry about more than just my fate. I worry about a god capable of such judgement and ignorence. Therefore in my heart I know that this is not the way things are. Even if you dont think God is a consciesness I refuse to believe in any religion that suggest that eternal life is just for some.

Maybe now you understand the reason for my beliefs, and maybe now you understand im not an athiest or a pagen. I dont believe in god because I choose to think beyond myself and look at the big picture.

I look to science and nature for more realistic and promising truths. Read my post back a page or two on reincarnation to see what I believe.

 

[joe754]

My view on god:
Could an entity that lacks a physical definition who is capable of incredible feats without the use of outside tools exist? Possibly. I haven't personally, knowingly met one, but such beings could theoretically exist.

Could something like that have sparked the creation of the universe? Yeah, especially if you go with the super-atom type big bang.

Could something like that have shaped the formation of the universe in any fashion, including but not limited to the creation of life? Yeah, much more believably.

Could such an entity have interacted with humans in the distant past, giving us the reported mythological miracles? Definitely, assuming they existed.

Could any of the above actions or the results of such actions drained so much juice out of them that they now can't or won't do anything big like before, or possibly disenchanted them with the future of our race to the point where they left to a different planet to try again? I could see that, easily.

Oh, and when I used pronouns that were plural, well how do we know if there's one or dozens? We can't, unless we ascended (think Stargate SG-1, the ancients and Daniel Jackson) or something.


On the afterlife:
Well, I sincerely hope that conciousness doesn't poop out when we die. If it does, I'll be sincerely disappointed, as that's my one and only real fear. I would be okay if whatever it shifts into or wherever it transfers to results in a change of perception, though. As long as I don't just permanently cease to exist.

The only theory of life after death that I don't like, short of nothing, is reincarnation that makes you forget your past life. Why would it do that? Doesn't make sense to do that if you're supposed to be seeking enlightenment (knowledge, something that memory is full of), to me. Also, one's memories greatly define one's self, so that's pretty close to ceasing to exist.

A heaven/hell idea sounds iffy to me, and I just plain wouldn't like it if it was decided by what you put faith in. Having faith or not, maybe; I'd be rather iffy about that.

Something like a River World (haven't read the books; just seen the SciFi TV movie) existence that lasts until you figure yourself out and is then followed by something else, I could live with that.

 

[mikenet2006]

My view on god:
Could an entity that lacks a physical definition who is capable of incredible feats without the use of outside tools exist? Possibly. I haven't personally, knowingly met one, but such beings could theoretically exist.

Could something like that have sparked the creation of the universe? Yeah, especially if you go with the super-atom type big bang.

Could something like that have shaped the formation of the universe in any fashion, including but not limited to the creation of life? Yeah, much more believably.

Could such an entity have interacted with humans in the distant past, giving us the reported mythological miracles? Definitely, assuming they existed.

Could any of the above actions or the results of such actions drained so much juice out of them that they now can't or won't do anything big like before, or possibly disenchanted them with the future of our race to the point where they left to a different planet to try again? I could see that, easily.

Oh, and when I used pronouns that were plural, well how do we know if there's one or dozens? We can't, unless we ascended (think Stargate SG-1, the ancients and Daniel Jackson) or something.


On the afterlife:
Well, I sincerely hope that conciousness doesn't poop out when we die. If it does, I'll be sincerely disappointed, as that's my one and only real fear. I would be okay if whatever it shifts into or wherever it transfers to results in a change of perception, though. As long as I don't just permanently cease to exist.

The only theory of life after death that I don't like, short of nothing, is reincarnation that makes you forget your past life. Why would it do that? Doesn't make sense to do that if you're supposed to be seeking enlightenment (knowledge, something that memory is full of), to me. Also, one's memories greatly define one's self, so that's pretty close to ceasing to exist.

A heaven/hell idea sounds iffy to me, and I just plain wouldn't like it if it was decided by what you put faith in. Having faith or not, maybe; I'd be rather iffy about that.

Something like a River World (haven't read the books; just seen the SciFi TV movie) existence that lasts until you figure yourself out and is then followed by something else, I could live with that.

Well the reason I believe reincarnation exsist and you lose recolect of your current exsistance after death is because I beleive this has been going on forever.

I dont believe that there was ever a beggining to all things so it would be kind of illogical to assume this is suddenly your first time exsisting. That being said no body I have ever meet has told me they remember being alive in another form. So that says to me that our slate is wiped clean whenever we die.

When you think about it this is actually not a bad thing.
You seem like a SIFI fan, have you ever seen Interview With A Vampire?

Well in this film it is demontrated that exsisting forever would infact be a terible curse.

You would become to knowladgable for your own good if you were able to continue on in the next life with knowladge from this one. You also wouldnt experence
the thrill of seeing the world in different ways, as we are all very different.

One day ill know what its like to look at the world through the eyes of someone with great talent.
Then perhaps through the eyes of a world leader, or famous actor.

Of course ive never personally believed that all humans come back as humans either but the point is that no matter what, the way you precieve the world is destin to constantly change with time.

Never beleive death brings lack of exsistance for all eternity either.

Look at earth, the surrounding planets, and the surrounding galixies. Have we ever as a species witnesed anything that only happens once?

The only thing I can think of is the big bang, however nobody was there to actually witness that happen at all. All we know is that everything in the visible universe is moving outward from a cenrtal point. I garantee you that this has happened before as well. Its also probably happening elsewhere as we speak so far away it cant be detected.

This basic law is commonly believed by respected scientist including Einstien ...

Time and space are endless and stretch backward and foward for all eternity and in all directions.

If I could remember backward forever having seen the world through soo many different set of eyes. Id currently know everything about everything and I might as well have never died to begin with. I think it would be a curse, I really do.

Ill tell you what though when you said......

A heaven/hell idea sounds iffy to me, and I just plain wouldn't like it if it was decided by what you put faith in. Having faith or not, maybe; I'd be rather iffy about that.....



you hit the nail on the head. It so increadible how little that makes sense once you step back and look at the big picture. You sound pretty smart to me, but the alternative to believing in a consciece creator does not have to be depresing. Ive lookd into history and into my personal life and realized that religion ""not beliefe mind you"" has the potential to do as much harm as good. Apart from some of the good things that it can do here are some of the bad things ive seen and read about.

Religion can place fear in the hearts of many individuals

It Divides us into groups in more way than one. For one it puts us in groups of "good and bad" or "right and wrong" and being that we have so many ideas of what right and wrong is, we form religious groups. Catholic, Jewish, and Muslem for example. While this has provided happiness for many.

It has also gone as far as to initiate wars against entire groups of people and even entire countries. WW2 was primarily a war sparked by conflict of religious beliefe. Jews were murdered by the thousands for their religious label.

In 2001 thousands were murdered by madmen in hijacked jets willing to die for there god.

Christians see these men as evil, but there is no evil. Ironically they were being driven by a god of there own. They were willing to die for it, and even kill for it.

I beleve its wrong and false to believe a certain group of people will be rewarded for particular beliefs or lifestyles. However it is incoorperated into nearly all bible based religions so im not surprised it causes war.

Ive never been happier than I am now with what I belive, but I guess its different for everybody.

 

[joe754]

I've read the first three Vampire Chronicles books, and I have the fourth sitting around somewhere waiting to be read.

I can understand how immortality on earth could eventually cause insanity, especially if it wasn't punctuated by periods of rest, kinda like the way the vamps buried themselves underground and slept for a century or two.

However, what if that existence didn't all happen in one place? Instead of on earth for all of eternity, you're on earth for however long you live, then you go somewhere else? Possibly a very different somewhere else? Another plane of existence perhaps, where thought works a little different and insanity isn't an issue?

If we say that there has to be a reincarnation process, I don't see why it would have to be limited to earth. Let's assume for a minute that there's an infinity of alien worlds in existence, something that wouldn't surprise me. On many, if not an infinity of these worlds, there are intelligent species being born, kinda like earth. Every time something dies, it wakes up on an unexplored, untouched, possibly geographically familiar world, with a bunch of other intelligent creatures waking up there at the same time. They may or may not be in their original bodies. Obviously, sometimes one or more of the beings on these worlds would be aggressive, but overall the different species would be encountering different cultures, intelligences, and philosophies every reincarnation. Such worlds might be punctuated by a time in some sort of restful limbo. I don't see anything saying that when you did reincarnate, you'd have to be using the same type of brain, either. One world, you're as you are now. The next, you're a Mozart. After that, you're a guinea pig. Then, Einstein. Then, you have Down's Syndrome. Then, you have no emotion. Followed by an IQ of 12,050 and an unbelievable emotional capacity all mixed together. In fact, your ability to remember your past lives could be randomly suppressed, requiring effort to remember them but them still being within reach.

Something like that doesn't sound bad to me.

I'm not actually proposing anything here; I'm just saying that anything's possible. We aren't dead yet, or at least we can't recall our previous lives, so we don't know.

 

[mikenet2006]

Again your making alot of sense.

I have tended not to elaborate to much on how deep my beliefs go because id lose the focus of many who take the time to read it. Perhaps ill make a post in general apolegetics specificly on reincarnation when I have a high enough post count to participate there.

To address some of the things you brought up I can say that you are probably right when saying that reincarnation would not be limited to this planet or this time frame. Assuming there is life beyond earth that is. Witch no doubt in my mind is factual.

So this does brauden the picture a great deal on the variety of places and things you can return as.

The specifics, and details on how this reincarnation process works really is anybodies guess. I will explain however, in extreem detial, what my collected knowaldge has lead me personally to believe is truthful when I make a post on reincarnation. I may just post it in the philosophy section rather than waiting for my post count to go up, but I havent yet decided.