Thinking of Moving to Australia

[Montalban]

You stated that Muslims are trying change laws to get us to submit to them, and that I support said changes to the laws. You have not backed this up with anything meaningful. Given that you have misrepresented my arguments I have no problem using sarcasm on you.

I haven't misrepresented your arguments. I said you were sarcastic - and you are. I said you didn't want to deal with one incident I cited, and you haven't - except to be sarcastic.

If I've not provided evidence for my argument, that's not a misrepresntation of yours. Your criticism itself is a misrepresentation

I did mention that this is but one incident. Another is the introduction of halal symbols on products such as Cadbury chocolates, which is Australia-wide an issue, or simply not selling their bacon products at KFC's Bankstown branch - even though it remains on their menu boards.

But given you only met the one incident - relating to ham sandwhiches with sarcasm, you get as much information as I think you're willing to deal with

The ham sandwhich/stem-cell issues are indeed fired by religious beliefs... in that Moslems wishing to ban ham sandwhiches and Catholics wishing to ban stem-cell research is based on the religious views of the respective groups. However my argument was not simply to say that Moslems wish to make you Moslem, but to submit to Islam - if they can't make you Moslem - you may have missed that.

I also mentioned the word dhimmi, which might have given you a clue to the less restrictive argument you think I'm making.

 

[glymph]

If that was the only incident, you'd be happy.


So you're against Catholics being respected, but in favour of Moslems having us changing the law to suit them? Strange!

See this? Where did I say I'm in favour of Muslims having us change laws to suit them? Answer - I didn't. Thus I would conclude that you misrepresented my argument.

 

[Montalban]

See this? Where did I say I'm in favour of Muslims having us change laws to suit them? Answer - I didn't. Thus I would conclude that you misrepresented my argument.

This comes from a misunderstanding. I stated this - that you'd be happy, because if there was only the one incident, that's all you'd have to deal with. But you've not even done that.

 

[glymph]

I did mention that this is but one incident. Another is the introduction of halal symbols on products such as Cadbury chocolates, which is Australia-wide an issue, or simply not selling their bacon products at KFC's Bankstown branch - even though it remains on their menu boards.

None of this has anything to do with laws being changed to suit Muslims. They are marketing decisions made by private companies.

If laws really were being changed to give Muslims special rights (as they were for Catholics) then I would oppose it. As it is could you explain why I should care if I can't buy bacon at Bankstown KFC, or a chocolate bar has a halal symbol on it?

 

[Montalban]

There's other incidents such as having "Islamic" banking options. Moves to change marriage laws to be more in line with Islamic marriage, etc.

 

[Montalban]

None of this has anything to do with laws being changed to suit Muslims. They are marketing decisions made by private companies.

It is submitting to Islam which was one plank in my argument

If laws really were being changed to give Muslims special rights (as they were for Catholics) then I would oppose it. As it is could you explain why I should care if I can't buy bacon at Bankstown KFC, or a chocolate bar has a halal symbol on it?

Call for parts of sharia law in Australia
Call for parts of sharia law in Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[Montalban]

There's been disrespect for our laws - putting Islam above the law by taking girls to Lebanon to be married -when it would be illegal to marry them here

Teenage Lebanese Girls Sound SOS to Escape Arranged Marriages - Naharnet Newsdesk

Australia: Early and forced marriages | Women Living Under Muslim Laws

 

[glymph]

There's been disrespect for our laws - putting Islam above the law by taking girls to Lebanon to be married -when it would be illegal to marry them here

OK, you've found something that I disagree with - this practice is disgusting. BUT it is not putting Islam above the law any more than your or I bungee jumping in New Zealand when it is illegal to do so here is putting adrenalin rushes above the law. (Note that I'm NOT equating the two, just saying that we can't change laws in other countries.)

It's a long way short of saying that you or I are being forced to submit to Islam, and it's a long way short of saying that any Australian laws have been changed to suit Muslims (as far as I can tell none have).

 

[Montalban]

OK, you've found something that I disagree with - this practice is disgusting. BUT it is not putting Islam above the law any more than your or I bungee jumping in New Zealand when it is illegal to do so here is putting adrenalin rushes above the law. (Note that I'm NOT equating the two, just saying that we can't change laws in other countries.)

If I bungee-jumped there because of my religion, then you'd be able to compare the two.

 

[TheDag]

I'd say ALL professions, and many other vocations

Not only would you say that you did previously!

We can have an endless timed test!

I would just like to have a test that determines if people know stuff and how to work things out not one that simply tests who can recall information the best. I have friends who did not do well in exams but at trivia nights they are the fastest with the answer. So they know the stuff they just don't do well in tests.

Solicitors need to retain information to know which books to go looking in, or how to look for the information

Knowing how to look things up is easy especially with it computerised. Simple search feature and if you need to look at a hard copy it tells you the name. No rush to find it as they charge the client by the hour. in court of course they need to rush but I already acknowledged that.

Speed of adding and subtracting is necessary every time you hand money over. Unless you walk away take your time and then weeks later go back and say "You short-changed me 45¢"

You have changed your argument. A customer is not a profession. I asked how the retail person does this considering they often have calculators as a back up and computers to do the adding for them. You type in the prices or scan the product and hit sub-total. you then count the money and enter that into the computer and press total. The computer then tells you how much change to give to the customer. No need for speed. What is the customer going to do say stuff you I'm walking away without my change???

Retaining knowledge on how to update information is important. Perhaps you envisage an office where people continually re-read the manual each time they perform a task?

if they get stuck they can read the manual. However having worked in an office on paper processing jobs I could do it without thinking. I could carry on a conversation and get it right it was that straight forward.

How long did it take to recall that?

I don't recall maybe if I had more time I could tell you!

I loved that song on the Muppets

They were good but I never realised just how many songs they changed words to so it would be more acceptable to people. For example a song from west side story where they removed the word gay.

The HSC is timed too! Perhaps we should scrap that altogether?

I actually got extra time in my HSC so all my exams lasted longer. it was also nice to have my very own private room to do the exams. Funny thing was I was out of my exam before everyone else because of the time it took for them to get everyone in the hall and seated then fix mistakes. Especially in one of the english papers. Apparently the top level english had heaps of mistakes my brother and friends told me while my english paper only had a couple of mistakes to correct.

There's other incidents such as having "Islamic" banking options. Moves to change marriage laws to be more in line with Islamic marriage, etc.

using marriage is very harmful to your argument. After all it is christians who were the driving force behind keeping the definition of marriage as being between a man and woman thus not allowing gay marriage. How is this different? Christians are wanting others to submit to their rules. One might even go so far as to say it is a case of if we can't convert them we will make them live our way!

 

[Montalban]

Not only would you say that you did previously!

I don't say that profession and vocation are exactly the same. A profession is for me something that requires some amount of study. A person at a petrol station wouldn't necessarily be a professional.

I would just like to have a test that determines if people know stuff and how to work things out not one that simply tests who can recall information the best. I have friends who did not do well in exams but at trivia nights they are the fastest with the answer. So they know the stuff they just don't do well in tests.

I'm having a hard time deciding if you're kidding or not.
Yes, we could have an English test where people have blocks with sentence elements and they place the blocks in the right order.

Exams are not about how 'fast'. You don't get extra points for finishing the HSC in the quickest time - I know.

Knowing how to look things up is easy especially with it computerised. Simple search feature and if you need to look at a hard copy it tells you the name. No rush to find it as they charge the client by the hour. in court of course they need to rush but I already acknowledged that.

I don't think solicitors work on a pay by speed basis

You have changed your argument. A customer is not a profession.

Sure, but you were talking in absolute terms about school testing and time. You weren't just talking about testing for professionals.

I asked how the retail person does this considering they often have calculators as a back up and computers to do the adding for them. You type in the prices or scan the product and hit sub-total. you then count the money and enter that into the computer and press total. The computer then tells you how much change to give to the customer. No need for speed.

If we're going to talk about professions - and you can't make up your mind, a person selling retail is not a profession.

Perhaps you're working on a different definition of profession. I got this from when I did Sociology and we were studying the professionalisation of teaching.

"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialised educational training, the purpose of which is to supply disinterested counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain"
Profession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What is the customer going to do say stuff you I'm walking away without my change???

I take the change back - even if it's a week later that I visit the same shop.

if they get stuck they can read the manual. However having worked in an office on paper processing jobs I could do it without thinking. I could carry on a conversation and get it right it was that straight forward.

I work in an office, and I resemble that! However, because you've learnt it and you don't need to think, you've retained the information - which you seem good at - but you disaprove of the ability!

I don't recall maybe if I had more time I could tell you!

I've got heaps of time. Too much. No social life

They were good but I never realised just how many songs they changed words to so it would be more acceptable to people. For example a song from west side story where they removed the word gay.

Mah Nà Mah Nà was originally a song from a soft-core film!

I actually got extra time in my HSC so all my exams lasted longer. it was also nice to have my very own private room to do the exams. Funny thing was I was out of my exam before everyone else because of the time it took for them to get everyone in the hall and seated then fix mistakes. Especially in one of the english papers. Apparently the top level english had heaps of mistakes my brother and friends told me while my english paper only had a couple of mistakes to correct.

When I did the HSC - in 1985 the History components were grossly unfair.

There was on the paper a single question from various segments.

So 1 segment might include
Westward Expansion - which we studied
The Causes of the Civil War - which we studied
and
The Course of the Civil War

Another segment was:
Industrial Revolution
Unification of Italy - which we studied
Unification of Germany - which we studied

We weren't given time to learn each subject in each segment so our teacher taught us two out of three. But as it turns out when it came to the HSC the question in 1 segment was the Course of the Civil War, and the question in the next segment was the Industrial Revolution - two topics we'd not studied.

It went on throughout the paper where we'd be questioned on things we'd not studied. I did the question on the Course of WWII, even though we'd not studied it - because in my own personal/private readings I'd got a bit of information so I attempted it.

using marriage is very harmful to your argument. After all it is christians who were the driving force behind keeping the definition of marriage as being between a man and woman thus not allowing gay marriage. How is this different? Christians are wanting others to submit to their rules. One might even go so far as to say it is a case of if we can't convert them we will make them live our way!

It supports my argument. Marriage is between one man and one woman. Moslems want to change it. You simply point out another group that wants to change it.

We are already a Christian country - our laws are already influenced by Christian values - even when you sue over a faulty TV that's influenced by Donoghue -v- Stevenson (the ruling of Lord Atkin was drawn straight out of the New Testament)

 

[TheDag]

I don't say that profession and vocation are exactly the same. A profession is for me something that requires some amount of study. A person at a petrol station wouldn't necessarily be a professional.

Actually in post #304 you said occupation not profession. I was working on the assumption you meant what you wrote. Therefore a person working at a petrol station as an example is fine.

I'm having a hard time deciding if you're kidding or not.
Yes, we could have an English test where people have blocks with sentence elements and they place the blocks in the right order.

Exams are not about how 'fast'. You don't get extra points for finishing the HSC in the quickest time - I know.

No I'm not kidding. You missed the point completely. The point being that a person can know the information and recall it but in an exam situation which is different (and not natural compared to a work environment) they may have trouble recalling it. You're old enough to remember the days when entry to medical school was determined by marks only. What was the end result? We ended up with doctors who didn't know how to talk to patients.

Sure, but you were talking in absolute terms about school testing and time. You weren't just talking about testing for professionals.

I asked how speed was essential for retail and as we were talking about jobs in the example I thought you would treat it from the workers perspective not the customers.

If we're going to talk about professions - and you can't make up your mind, a person selling retail is not a profession.

Perhaps you're working on a different definition of profession. I got this from when I did Sociology and we were studying the professionalisation of teaching.

"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialised educational training, the purpose of which is to supply disinterested counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain"
Profession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Occupation may refer to:
In business:

• Career, a person's occupational history
• Day job, an occupation solely for income, while pursuing another preferred career track
• Employment, a person's job or work in service of an employer

Occupation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I assumed you were talking about employment.

So as I pointed out earlier by your use of the word occupation perhaps it is you who can't make up their mind. Retail is an occupation.

I take the change back - even if it's a week later that I visit the same shop.

So speed is not an issue then as you return to the shop at a later date to collect the money you were short changed by.

I work in an office, and I resemble that! However, because you've learnt it and you don't need to think, you've retained the information - which you seem good at - but you disaprove of the ability!

Actually what I learnt was how to read in school which meant I could read the paperwork and later computer screen. When it came to typing I was slow to start of with but my speed improved.
I never said that I disapprove of retaining information as you can clearly tell from my earlier example of friend at trivia. They retain the information they just have trouble recalling it in certain conditions which are not natural.

I've got heaps of time. Too much. No social life

I have no social life and no time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manamana

It supports my argument. Marriage is between one man and one woman. Moslems want to change it. You simply point out another group that wants to change it.

We are already a Christian country - our laws are already influenced by Christian values - even when you sue over a faulty TV that's influenced by Donoghue -v- Stevenson (the ruling of Lord Atkin was drawn straight out of the New Testament)

So you do believe that christians should force their laws on others. So we are based on christian values like murder, theft and drunkeness. Guess your idea of christian values is different to mine. Now of course we could go forward to federation where most of the "founding fathers" were agnostic or we could rewind and look at aboriginal law. Still not seeing it. Laws and legal system are based on Jewish law.



Anyway my migraine seems to have eased up so I'm going back to bed

 

[Montalban]

Actually in post #304 you said occupation not profession. I was working on the assumption you meant what you wrote. Therefore a person working at a petrol station as an example is fine.

In post #303 I use the word occupation, not #304. And that's right an occupation is not necessarily a profession. I said it was handy regardless of the occupation.

No I'm not kidding. You missed the point completely. The point being that a person can know the information and recall it but in an exam situation which is different (and not natural compared to a work environment) they may have trouble recalling it. You're old enough to remember the days when entry to medical school was determined by marks only. What was the end result? We ended up with doctors who didn't know how to talk to patients.

Entry to a 'school' based on marks is still essential because we need doctors who can memorise and retain large amounts of information.

I asked how speed was essential for retail and as we were talking about jobs in the example I thought you would treat it from the workers perspective not the customers.

Speed in retail is very important. Even if we have machines to help. Knowing which buttons to press, knowing what to do when things don't quite work –the human factor

Occupation may refer to:
In business:

• Career, a person's occupational history
• Day job, an occupation solely for income, while pursuing another preferred career track
• Employment, a person's job or work in service of an employer

Occupation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I assumed you were talking about employment.

I am. And it's not a profession

So as I pointed out earlier by your use of the word occupation perhaps it is you who can't make up their mind. Retail is an occupation.

I don't recall denying it's an occupation. Only that it's not a profession.

So speed is not an issue then as you return to the shop at a later date to collect the money you were short changed by.

That's a misrepresentation. If I notice the error my lack of haste in returning is not part of that 'speed' factor in me returning to the shop next time I pass it.

Actually what I learnt was how to read in school which meant I could read the paperwork and later computer screen. When it came to typing I was slow to start of with but my speed improved.

So speed is important?

I never said that I disapprove of retaining information as you can clearly tell from my earlier example of friend at trivia. They retain the information they just have trouble recalling it in certain conditions which are not natural.

Fortunately the HSC isn't a trivia competition


I'm still waiting to see if you'll point out how in the HSC you get extra marks for finishing quickly

 

[Tahoenite]

Yep lets give them a false impression and while we are at it we will tell Tahoenite that nobody here ever stereotypes americans as loud mouths. We'll let that one be a shock.
You obviously don't live in queensland where they had to actually run ad campaigns saying please be nice to visitors. WYD was a specific event that got special treatment.

A lot of Americans think Americans are loud mouthed twits.

Mrs. Tahoenite has done a lot of reading on what not to do as an American in Australia.

1) Never ever compare Australia or its ways to the US when you think the US is better at something or has a better way of doing it.

2) Just because someone may be an American citizen does not mean all the rights and freedoms we have come with us when we leave America.

There are more but these were the two that seemed to be the most important to follow if we didn't want to get sent back to America via a small shipping crate on an ocean liner.

 

[Tahoenite]

The discussion about the Ham sandwich vs WYD laws has been very enlightening.

I see the sandwiches as being the worst of the two stories. A governing agency that should not be so easily swayed by such a small group with in the population. It makes the governing politician look weak or a sympathizer to the groups cause. Obama and the mosque are a great example of that.

I can understand why there would be special circumstances with the WYD event. Anytime kids' safety is involved it laws to protect them become broader. If it was not a youth event I doubt the legal restrictions would have stood.

 

[Montalban]

A lot of Americans think Americans are loud mouthed twits. Mrs.

Mrs. Tahoenite has done a lot of reading on what not to do as an American in Australia.

1) Never ever compare Australia or its ways to the US when you think the US is better at something or has a better way of doing it.

2) Just because someone may be an American citizen does not mean all the rights and freedoms we have come with us when we leave America.

There are more but these were the two that seemed to be the most important to follow if we didn't want to get sent back to America via a small shipping crate on an ocean liner.

During the Sydney Olympics some Americans got on a train and one loudly proclaimed what a beautiful city we had. I'm sure he meant well, but it had a sense of arrogance in that he'd think we'd care about what he had to say.

Although maybe he was just that excited that he had to tell everyone.

My late father was American, so I'm half-loud-mouthed

 

[Montalban]

The discussion about the Ham sandwich vs WYD laws has been very enlightening.

I see the sandwiches as being the worst of the two stories. A governing agency that should not be so easily swayed by such a small group with in the population. It makes the governing politician look weak or a sympathizer to the groups cause. Obama and the mosque are a great example of that.

I can understand why there would be special circumstances with the WYD event. Anytime kids' safety is involved it laws to protect them become broader. If it was not a youth event I doubt the legal restrictions would have stood.

Indeed. One was a one-off event. The other is a slowly creeping change that has longer term consequences.

If you go into any KFC in Australia they display the same menu items. But if you go into the one in Bankstown - an area with a large Moslem minority, you'll still see the ham products advertised, but they won't sell them because they've taken the commecial decision to surrender to Islam

We've had Moslem clerics here saying that women who 'dress provocatively' deserve to be raped

 

[Tahoenite]

Call for parts of sharia law in Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I found this humerus, as someone that is looking into relocating to another country I have done a lot of investigation into whether my family and I would fit in. There is a necessity for us to fit into the existing society if we want to thrive there.

Dr. Matthews hope to have laws change would be similar to me coming over and ask for Aussies to accept American traditions. If see my prior post does this scenario does not have a pleasant outcome.

 

[Montalban]

I found this humerus, as someone that is looking into relocating to another country I have done a lot of investigation into whether my family and I would fit in. There is a necessity for us to fit into the existing society if we want to thrive there.

Dr. Matthews hope to have laws change would be similar to me coming over and ask for Aussies to accept American traditions. If see my prior post does this scenario does not have a pleasant outcome.

The National Australia Bank - one of the major Australian banks already offers Islamic home loans.

There's a current story over whether a Moslem woman can give testimony in court and keep her face covering on.

The principles at stake are the right of a jury to see her expressions on her face and judge if she's telling the truth, and the right of the accused to face his accusor -v- her supposed religious right (given it's cultural, not religious)

 

[glymph]

I can understand why there would be special circumstances with the WYD event. Anytime kids' safety is involved it laws to protect them become broader. If it was not a youth event I doubt the legal restrictions would have stood.

The one where kids safety was involved was the Catholic sex abuse scandal. There were no kids at world youth day.