Thinking about creation.

[The Liturgist]

Or maybe,..... you can look at the Genesis account as a re-forming of the earth in 6 days from a former chaotic state. Gap theory.

Which is the Mormon view, and it is theologically deeply problematic, since it enables their heresy that God did not create the universe ex nihlo, but is rather an exalted man from the planet Kolob.

 

[The Liturgist]

I said NOTHING about Gap Theory. Like Theistic Evolution is really does not exist. Or has been poorly thought through. People put way more energy and time into YEC and OEC.

Gap creationism (also known as ruin-restoration creationism, restoration creationism, or "the Gap Theory") is a form of old Earth creationism that posits that the six-yom creation period, as described in the Book of Genesis, involved six literal 24-hour days (light being "day" and dark "night" as God specified), but that there was a gap of time between two distinct creations in the first and the second verses of Genesis, which the theory states explains many scientific observations, including the age of the Earth.[1][2][3] It differs from day-age creationism, which posits that the 'days' of creation were much longer periods (of thousands or millions of years), and from young Earth creationism, which although it agrees concerning the six literal 24-hour days of creation, does not posit any gap of time.

The problem with gap theory is that it is simply not scientific enough - it does not account for fossils of homo erectus or homo habilis, it does not account for some species surviving the Great Ice Age, and it has numerous other shortcomings.

There are better ways at addressing this issue, but my own view is the amazing proximity between Genesis and the scientific understanding of creation is sufficient.

 

[ARBITER01]

Which is the Mormon view, and it is theologically deeply problematic, since it enables their heresy that God did not create the universe ex nihlo, but is rather an exalted man from the planet Kolob.

I have no idea what the mormons believe, I learned about it from the Scofield and Dake bibles. They don't teach about aliens.

 

[ARBITER01]

The problem with gap theory is that it is simply not scientific enough - it does not account for fossils of homo erectus or homo habilis, it does not account for some species surviving the Great Ice Age, and it has numerous other shortcomings.

There are better ways at addressing this issue, but my own view is the amazing proximity between Genesis and the scientific understanding of creation is sufficient.

I think the gap theory is just fine.

A world that then was, filled with life that is extinct now, and form of man that was more animal like that is extinct as well, probably all killed off by a massive ice age, and GOD then starting over with a form of man made in His image.

I think the gap theory agrees with science quite a bit.

 

[Diamond72]

The problem with gap theory is that it is simply not scientific enough

Thomas Chalmers was a minister and he did not want to take time away from the Bible to study Science. So there is not much to his theory. The two year associate degree churches are ok for a new christian but as we learn and grow we need people with a master degree or PhD. I am sure learning will be a big part of heaven and the libraries there are going to be huge. Every book in the world does not even begin to explain the meaning of the word "beginning".

 

[The Liturgist]

I have no idea what the mormons believe, I learned about it from the Scofield and Dake bibles. They don't teach about aliens.

The Mormons do not believe God is an alien, they believe he is an exalted human who originated on a different planet, and the goal in Mormonism is to achieve apotheosis and populate a previously uninhabited world with your spirit-children.

At any rate, the problem with the Gap Theory is that it contradicts a literal interpretation of Genesis 1, and opens the door to rejecting the central Christian belief that all things were created by God, unless one used it to somehow bridge the perceived disparity between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 (the existence of which I doubt, but some people say these were separate creation narratives, which is an idea commonly associated with the five-source hypothesis regarding the Torah, where you have the Jahwist Source, the Priestly Source, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist, and the Redactor or Editor, which makes for interesting reading, but I subscribe to a semi two- source hypothesis, wherein Moses, although he was likely literate, composed the Torah either partially or entirely with a learned scribe, who then wrote the portions of Deuteronomy under direct divine inspiration that dealt with the repose of Moses, and subsequently assisted in the writing of Joshua, accounting for the stylistic and thematic similarity. Such a co-authorship idea would account for the slight differences in style in different pericopes, which in my view are not strong enough to suggest five separate sources being fused into one, and on the other hand, the five source hypothesis does not explain how a few Aramaic words got into the text, such as Genesis 15:1 and Numbers 23:10, but my thought in that case is these words were inserted by scribes over time, as Hebrew was replaced as the vernacular language of the Jews by Aramaic and related to a liturgical language, in the early stages of that process, when many people could still speak Hebrew, but Aramaic was the more common vernacular tongue, it makes sense that some Paleo-Hebrew phrases would become so obscure that many scribes would simply replace them with a more widely understood Aramaic replacement.

This doubtless occurred around the same time the Torah ceased to be written using the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet and instead with a subset of the Imperial Aramaic “Square Letters” alphabet in which it is still written to this day, which, with modifications to indicate vowells and cantillation marks, has also become the preferred alphabet of the Jewish community for writing Aramaic, Ladino and Yiddish, and is also used to write the neo-Hebrew official language of Israel, which was a remarkable accomplishment, in that the Israelis managed to revive a language the use of which had been confined to the synagogue, and in which no one had been conversant for at least 2,300 years, and this is promising for the attempts of the Coptic Orthodox Christians of Egypt to revive vernacular Coptic, and for the efforts of the Syriac Orthodox to arrest and reverse the decline of West Syriac Aramaic dialects such as Turoyo as the language of their people (and likewise for the efforts of the Assyrian Church of the East to ensure the Aramaic dialect spoken by a majority of their members, around 700,000, survives).

By the way, given the meticulous nature in which the Jews, whether Rabinnical or Karaite*, maintain the Torah today, using the system of Masorah to account for the occurrences of characters and provide error-detection (one of the first examples of an error correction code in mathematics, as is now widely used in computer science), it is remarkable to consider how at one time there were not only a mutliplicity of alternate readings of the Hebrew Bible, including the Torah, but that it would cease to be written in one alphabet and written exclusively in another alphabet, one of gentile origin. The Samaritan alphabet is somewhat more closely related to the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet, which suggests that the Samaritan claim to be the descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh is accurate, but one can also plainly see where they modified the text based on their beliefs about Mount Gerizim, which I suspect were as a result of the Northern Kingdom losing access to Jerusalem as a result of its separation from the Kingdom of Judah, and thus deciding to designate an alternate holy site, and since it was not until the liturgical reforms under the Holy Prophet Nehemiah and the High Priesthood of Ezra that widespread knowledge of the scriptures among the general population became a thing, something the Samaritans, at that point no longer a kingdom but a remnant people, would have likely emulated out of fear their people might otherwise be persuaded to convert, well, one can see how this could have happened in the Northern Kingdom.

 

[The Liturgist]

Thomas Chalmers was a minister and he did not want to take time away from the Bible to study Science. So there is not much to his theory. The two year associate degree churches are ok for a new christian but as we learn and grow we need people with a master degree or PhD. I am sure learning will be a big part of heaven and the libraries there are going to be huge. Every book in the world does not even begin to explain the meaning of the word "beginning".

Well, I have met very learned clergy who did not attend seminary but rather were trained in the liturgy of the Coptic Orthodox church in a monastery, and then over time educated themselves - the majority of Coptic Orthodox clergy have degrees in finance or engineering and only recently have seminaries been a popular option, and many Orthodox Churches do not require seminaries.

The origin of the seminary was in the counter-reformation of the Council of Trent, so they are something that emerged in the West, which is not an inherently bad idea, although the seminary I attended was worthless, being one of the liberal seminaries that contributed to the downfall of the mainline churches, and thus I retrained myself.

 

[ARBITER01]

....the problem with the Gap Theory is that it contradicts a literal interpretation of Genesis 1, and opens the door to rejecting the central Christian belief that all things were created by God,

I don't see it that way.

I view it still maintaining the 6 literal 24 hour days of creation, but it was a reforming of the earth by GOD from a chaotic state that it had become after satan and his angels were kicked out of heaven for starting a war, and GOD killing off everything with an ice age when He blotted out the sun.

unless one used it to somehow bridge the perceived disparity between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2....

Exactly.

Instead of the "and the earth was" I read it as "and the earth became." This was what Finnis Dake had taught in his bible, and The Holy Spirit witnessed to me as being correct.

Maybe there are some other ideas associated with the Gap Theory, but I don't subscribe to them.


And to answer your thesis on how exact the Jews were in their copying of the OT,.... a decent portion of the dead sea scrolls witnesses to the Septuagint, not the Masoretic text. I know that may go against the grain of some folks and their beliefs, but there is a reason why the NT quotations of the OT follow a different Hebraic text than the one currently in circulation.

 

[The Liturgist]

And to answer your thesis on how exact the Jews were in their copying of the OT,.... a decent portion of the dead sea scrolls witnesses to the Septuagint, not the Masoretic text.

Indeed, that’s why the Eastern Orthodox use the Septuagint exclusively in public worship (and I am aware of only one Orthodox bible, the controversial 19th century “Synodical Bible” which is in vernacular Russian rather than Church Slavonic, which used, in part, the Masoretic text).

As far as I am aware the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches* are the only churches that use the Septuagint or translations of the Septuagint exclusively in their worship services.

*except among the Oriental Orthodox, there are two exceptions, but good ones: the Syriac Orthodox who use the ancient and well-respected Syriac Peshitta, translated between the second and fourth century, and the Ethiopians, who use the ancient Ge’ez translation of the Old Testament, which preserves 1 Enoch, which Jude appears to quote, but which does not use 1 Enoch as a source for any doctrines which differ from those of other Orthodox churches.

 

[Diamond72]

GOD killing off everything with an ice age when He blotted out the sun.

The reason or cause for the ice age is complicated.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The universe is a vast place, full of God's creation. We are not the only world God has created. Genesis describes the creation of our world, not the universe.

KT

What is your basis for this statement?

Where is it said God created other worlds, and what would be the purpose of these worlds ?

 

[Diamond72]

Where is it said God created other worlds, and what would be the purpose of these worlds ?

All of Creation is designed so we can better understand God. Psalm 19:1: "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." Each element of nature, from the vast galaxies to the smallest creatures, showcases His handiwork and inspires awe.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The problem with the Gap theory is that it is not necessary

The size and age of the universe is imagined and not known by man. It is all based on inference built on inference. We are told it is absolute fact, but we are not told of the short comings of the theory

We are allowing ourselves to be deceived by the imaginations of men, when we have the Creator of the Universe dictating His creation directly to Moses on Mt Siani. He gave us the order of creation

Water was created first, then light, then the Earth, then the firmament, then the plants then Sun, Moon and stars, then animals, then man

There is nothing in the scientific data that contradicts that. There is plenty of conjecture by those that call themselves scientists that contradict it, but conjecture is not considered true unless believed by those that do not know

The data shows that there is water everywhere, even the surface of the Sun. Hydrogen is the most abundant element

The data shows that there is residual light in the universe when light from Sun and Stars is subtracted

It is the imaginations of men that says the universe began with a big bang, and earth came later. It is the imaginations of men that says the universe is 13 billion light-years across. The imaginations of men says the Earth is 4 billion years old. We just accept all these as fact because we have been told them so often that we are almost forced to believe them or suffer ridicule

The data shows that the fossil record does not support evolution and cannot explain the Cambrian explosion of complex life forms. We are told that it does but men with imaginations, not hard science. Peking man was a fake, homo erectus is a joke even evolutionists no longer accept. The die hard fans are the theistic evolutionists that will not accept evolution as untrue because they have been defending it for so long, and their mind is not ready to accept Genesis as science

Genetic research shows that there was an Adam and Eve, and 4 billion years is not enough time for apes to “evolve” to men even if it did happen

Natural man looks at the data and disbelieves God, so he will never accept God. He will run and deny God to the end. Why follow his folly?

21st century man is programmed to accept propaganda rather than reason with philosophical first principles. If we could reason properly, we all could easily see what a joke the stuff that passes for science actually is, as well as those that try to mix the Bible with modern folly

The Bible says, What fellowship has light with darkness? Stop trying to mix them

 

[boughtwithaprice]

All of Creation is designed so we can better understand God. Psalm 19:1: "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." Each element of nature, from the vast galaxies to the smallest creatures, showcases His handiwork and inspires awe.

The heavens declare the glory of God, for sure, but what is your basis for saying that there are other worlds in those stars ?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What is your basis for this statement?

Where is it said God created other worlds, and what would be the purpose of these worlds ?

Telescopes and meticulous tracking allow us to observe other worlds as they transit across their local suns. Likewise, within our own solar system, we can observe numerous worlds. Thus, it is said that God's "book" of creation is read by observing the wonders that God has crafted.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Telescopes and meticulous tracking allow us to observe other worlds as they transit across their local suns. Likewise, within our own solar system, we can observe numerous worlds. Thus, it is said that God's "book" of creation is read by observing the wonders that God has crafted.

Worlds imply life. We do not see life anywhere else in the universe. Some people have tried to infer life, but it is not certain. It would be foolish to think that there are other worlds without definite proof

As of now, aliens and other worlds are the imaginations of men

 

[Diamond72]

The heavens declare the glory of God, for sure, but what is your basis for saying that there are other worlds in those stars ?

Sean Carroll has discussed the possibility of extraterrestrial life, suggesting that if life exists elsewhere, it might not be drastically different from life on Earth1. He believes that the fundamental principles of biology and chemistry are likely universal, so life elsewhere might follow similar patterns and structures.

It's an intriguing idea. The thought that life, no matter where it arises, might share common traits with what we see on our own planet.

Sean Carroll published his book "Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evo Devo and the Making of the Animal Kingdom" in 20051.

It's a fascinating read that delves into the field of evolutionary developmental biology.

It is unusual for me to remember a book that I read that long ago.

 

[Diamond72]

As of now, aliens and other worlds are the imaginations of men

I recently had a procedure where I was in the operation room but I was still awake. Being awake in the operation room is not my idea of a good time. I did start to imagine that it was like being adducted by aliens. At least I could see where people might believe that.

Alien abduction stories are a huge part of modern folklore. People claim to have been taken by extraterrestrial beings and subjected to various experiments before being returned to Earth. These accounts often include descriptions of bright lights, strange spacecraft, and missing time.

While there’s no scientific evidence to support these stories, they capture our imagination and spark endless debates about the possibility of life beyond our planet.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I recently had a procedure where I was in the operation room but I was still awake. Being awake in the operation room is not my idea of a good time. I did start to imagine that it was like being adducted by aliens. At least I could see where people might believe that.

Alien abduction stories are a huge part of modern folklore. People claim to have been taken by extraterrestrial beings and subjected to various experiments before being returned to Earth. These accounts often include descriptions of bright lights, strange spacecraft, and missing time.

While there’s no scientific evidence to support these stories, they capture our imagination and spark endless debates about the possibility of life beyond our planet.

I have no doubt that those experiences are real
We are in contention with alien beings bent on our destruction. These are Satan and his demons

They work on the imagination to where we think the word of God does not apply. These are distractions. They are real, but if you look too long at them, you will notice that your mind is being held captive and kept from contemplating our Lord.

There is no technology in the material world whereby we can reach other stars. The closest one other than the Sun is four light years away

Star Trek is a great fantasy and imagines hyper light travel. Completely imaginary. If we could reach light speed, it would take 6 months at 1 G to do so. People have taken 10 to 20 G for short periods of time, but to reach light speed at 20G would take at least 1 week. The human body cannot live at 20G for 1 week. 0 to light in 6 seconds would crush any terrestrial being

Natural beings cannot engage in interstellar space travel, they just can’t, but supernatural beings can. That is why I believe the aliens are fallen angels sent to distract us.

We need to concentrate on repentance and mortification of our sinful nature before we contemplate space travel
Star Trek and Star Wars are fun fantasies if we leave them at that. Star Trek is better because it is logical, flawlessly logical. Star Wars tells us to stretch out with our feelings and let go our conscious self. Feelings can be manipulated and are a prime invitation to demonic influence, oppression, obsession and possession .


Peace be with you


Ps even at warp 9 it would take 2 days to reach Proxima Centauri

 

[Diamond72]

The human body cannot live at 20G for 1 week.

If it took four years to get to the closet star does that mean they would need four years worth of food. IF we could travel the speed of light how would that effect our metabolism. According to Einstein time would slow down and even stop, but we have no idea how that would effect us or what we would experience. The theory is that we would not age but how do we know that for sure. Just because light is not effected by time does not mean we are not going to be effected if we were to travel the speed of light. But then as you say we could not handle the G force of that. So the whole thing has not really been thought through at all and there is no way to test the conclusions.

My vision of a worm hole is that it is like an optical fiber. In Kings there is talk about a chariot of fire. Is that a reference to light maybe? I asked a pastor about that once and he looked it up in a book somewhere. But he really did not come up with an answer. Although they speak words to make it look like an answer.

• 2 Kings 2:11: Elijah is taken up to heaven in a whirlwind by a chariot of fire and horses of fire.

When we die we leave our physical body behind. So does that mean our spiritual body can travel the speed of light. In my dream when I went to the center of the universe it only took like two or three seconds to get there. With entanglement everything is connnected in real time, past, present and future. No matter how far apart they are.

With Jesus we are told He took His physical body with him. Even there were a lot of people resurrected when the veil was torn and we are told nothing about what happened to them.

Matthew 27 50 When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51 At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

That is it, that is all they tell us, that they were resurrected and appeared to many people?