These errors continue

[Dorothea]

I remember more than a decade ago in a conversation with my priest's wife, and I can't remember what led to her saying this and what we were talking about. I'm thinking maybe prophecies. In any case, she told me that the Greek Church/Patriarch will fall -- one of the prophecies. As we continue to see Patriarch Bartholomew and Archbishop Elpidoros (sp?) doing things that seem contrary to Christ's Church, I can really see what presbytera was saying all those years ago.

Archbishop Elpidophoros intends to go ahead with episcopal consecration of defrocked Alexander Belya

Alexander Belya has been at the center of a number of controversies in recent years. He was defrocked by ROCOR in February 2020, and thus is canonically only a lay monk.

orthochristian.com

 

[HTacianas]

I remember more than a decade ago in a conversation with my priest's wife, and I can't remember what led to her saying this and what we were talking about. I'm thinking maybe prophecies. In any case, she told me that the Greek Church/Patriarch will fall -- one of the prophecies. As we continue to see Patriarch Bartholomew and Archbishop Elpidoros (sp?) doing things that seem contrary to Christ's Church, I can really see what presbytera was saying all those years ago.

Archbishop Elpidophoros intends to go ahead with episcopal consecration of defrocked Alexander Belya

Alexander Belya has been at the center of a number of controversies in recent years. He was defrocked by ROCOR in February 2020, and thus is canonically only a lay monk.

orthochristian.com

What is happening today is going to get worse until it gets better. Pray for the Patriarchs and for the unity of the Church.

 

[Dorothea]

What is happening today is going to get worse until it gets better. Pray for the Patriarchs and for the unity of the Church.

for sure.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Lord have mercy.

 

[prodromos]

The approach used by Patriarch Bartholomew and Archbishop Elpidophoros seems to be aimed at creating division in the Church.

 

[rusmeister]

The approach used by Patriarch Bartholomew and Archbishop Elpidophoros seems to be aimed at creating division in the Church.

In a desperate attempt to be fair to them, though the effect of what they do projects wolves in pastors’ clothing, I would say that they probably don’t intend such division, but naively think, “I’m going the right way, everyone will fall in line except for a few schismatics (as they understand the term) and discontents.” That seems probable to me, anyway.

 

[E.C.]

I think the best solution would be to kidnap all the patriarchs to lock them into a room. We will then lock the door to the bathroom and only unlock it when they have found a viable solution to these problems. Given their average age, we could have all these divisions fixed within the hour.

 

[Ioannis]

I get the feeling that the patriarch doesn't know half of what is going on. The synod's actions on the charter and his apology to the Archdiocese after speaking with the metropolitans is what leads me to that.

Sometimes, I also wonder if the synod has shifted to giving the archbishop enough rope to hang himself with at this point. I'm half-expecting a [forced] retirement in the next couple of years. Leadership 100 and the archons aren't too thrilled with the archbishop. And, as much as I hate to say it, they have a lot of power and maybe that'll get used in a good way for once.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I get the feeling that the patriarch doesn't know half of what is going on. The synod's actions on the charter and his apology to the Archdiocese after speaking with the metropolitans is what leads me to that.

Sometimes, I also wonder if the synod has shifted to giving the archbishop enough rope to hang himself with at this point. I'm half-expecting a [forced] retirement in the next couple of years. Leadership 100 and the archons aren't too thrilled with the archbishop. And, as much as I hate to say it, they have a lot of power and maybe that'll get used in a good way for once.

Lord have mercy

 

[Dogheaded]

You have wealthy Greeks who are Orthodox only in culture that will pump money towards their own ends. Wealth corrupts the Greeks.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Wealth corrupts the Greeks.

and Russians, and English, and Irish, and Lebanese, and Germans, and Scots, and Chinese, and Syrians, and….

 

[rusmeister]

and Russians, and English, and Irish, and Lebanese, and Germans, and Scots, and Chinese, and Syrians, and….

I think there IS a problem specific to the US about the Greek Church in the US, money, and its special influence.

I know that my mother encountered a Greek parish in CA where money decided an awful lot, and the worldliness and prioritizing of promoting Greek culture (for $$$) over promoting the Gospel to Americans was a factor in her turning to Islam in the last years of her life.

Its an aside, but I strongly suspect that Greek money is part of what leads AF Ministries to pursue policies that they do and promote speakers that they shouldn’t.

 

[JSRG]

I remember more than a decade ago in a conversation with my priest's wife, and I can't remember what led to her saying this and what we were talking about. I'm thinking maybe prophecies. In any case, she told me that the Greek Church/Patriarch will fall -- one of the prophecies. As we continue to see Patriarch Bartholomew and Archbishop Elpidoros (sp?) doing things that seem contrary to Christ's Church, I can really see what presbytera was saying all those years ago.

Archbishop Elpidophoros intends to go ahead with episcopal consecration of defrocked Alexander Belya

Alexander Belya has been at the center of a number of controversies in recent years. He was defrocked by ROCOR in February 2020, and thus is canonically only a lay monk.

orthochristian.com

I'd always be very cautious when accepting any prophecy without a clear statement of who said it and where/when they said it. There are too many prophecies that seem to be made up later and then put into the mouths of some earlier person.

 

[Dorothea]

I'd always be very cautious when accepting any prophecy without a clear statement of who said it and where/when they said it. There are too many prophecies that seem to be made up later and then put into the mouths of some earlier person.

Sure, but I know Presbytera very well and for 16 years. She wouldn't have said that without it being backed up by more than one or two elders or saints.

 

[Dogheaded]

I think there IS a problem specific to the US about the Greek Church in the US, money, and its special influence.

I know that my mother encountered a Greek parish in CA where money decided an awful lot, and the worldliness and prioritizing of promoting Greek culture (for $$$) over promoting the Gospel to Americans was a factor in her turning to Islam in the last years of her life.

Its an aside, but I strongly suspect that Greek money is part of what leads AF Ministries to pursue policies that they do and promote speakers that they shouldn’t.

I'm praying Met. Saba does a lot to free the Antiochian archdiocese of the strings of Greek money.

 

[rusmeister]

Regarding the OP, and the continuity of error, I think it happens because
the faithful, both clergy and laity, do not correct those in error. Presupposing the reasonable certainty of error - ie, when we are sure that a particular teaching is being espoused, or an obviously erring hierarch being unqualifiedly promoted - a great many are ready to say that an idea is in error, but if we have a brother or sister, be it an archbishop or a member of TAW, we are shy of engaging in the Scriptural prescription to first approach the brother privately, then publicly. At this point I think it is the business of the faithful to demand that their hierarchs speak out against the evil of error, falsehood, and yes, heresy, to, according to that same formula, rebuke fellow priests and bishops who persist in error. The same thing goes for us among the laity. Either there is common teaching that all must accept, or we are just a bunch of Protestants walking around as our own “universal” churches. Unity ought not to be an empty word.

Such correction must be undertaken prayerfully, with the fear of God, and the readiness ourselves to be corrected from within our own Tradition and Patristic consensus. To come from a place of humility, recognizing both that our own sins are greater and that we might have made the errors of our brothers ourselves.

Personally, I found myself repelled by all the protestant individualism in the Church first by the leftist “progressive” believers with their faux “living Tradition”, and then by the radical conservatives ready to identify the Church with Stalinism and/or Sergianism, elevating national concerns to BE the concerns of the Church, and to punish dissent with that. It is a small miracle that I have not walked away from the Church altogether. Now my hope is that some of the faithful will remain faithful, that I will see others ready to accept our ancient Tradition and not seek to “correct” it.

 

[The Liturgist]

and Russians, and English, and Irish, and Lebanese, and Germans, and Scots, and Chinese, and Syrians, and….

Indeed, sin is not specific to one ethnicity.

 

[The Liturgist]

I get the feeling that the patriarch doesn't know half of what is going on. The synod's actions on the charter and his apology to the Archdiocese after speaking with the metropolitans is what leads me to that.

Sometimes, I also wonder if the synod has shifted to giving the archbishop enough rope to hang himself with at this point. I'm half-expecting a [forced] retirement in the next couple of years. Leadership 100 and the archons aren't too thrilled with the archbishop. And, as much as I hate to say it, they have a lot of power and maybe that'll get used in a good way for once.

That being said, when the Archbishop was Metropolitan of Bursa, he did make the very controversial assertion that the Ecumenical Patriarch was primus sine paribus rather than primus inter pares. If I recall he was also responsible for the even more controversial assertion that the Ecumenical Patriarchate could alone grant and also revoke autocephaly.

In all fairness however, it did sound as though his hand was forced in this instance by the Holy Synod. So while I am not enthusiastic about the likely prospect of him being the next Patriarch of Constantinople, he is still an Orthodox Bishop and is deserving of our prayers.

I also reject the assertion of some that the EP is destined for a spiritual collapse, because such a view neglects the fact that the EP benefits from Mount Athos, and in the US, its Greek Orthodox Archdiocese benefits from the wonderful monasteries founded by Elder Ephraim of Arizona, memory eternal, who I did once meet at St. Anthony’s in Florence, and that was a truly special encounter. He communicated with me quite a lot despite the lack of a common language. It was an immensely powerful experience. Also I do believe he founded more monasteries than anyone else in history; I like to think of him as the monastic Conrad Hilton, and he also revitalized four monasteries and I believe some smaller sketes as well on Mount Athos.

 

[All Becomes New]

I apologize for asking (because of my ignorance) but which one of these men has more authority?

 

[The Liturgist]

I apologize for asking (because of my ignorance) but which one of these men has more authority?

Patriarch Bartholomew is the seniormost bishop in the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archbishop Elpidophorus is the archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in North America, which is part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.