There's one thing that dosn't seem to be understood by non-christians...

urnotme · Jan 30, 2006

rowena said:
No we don't. Catholics (who are christians) don't believe that a person has to be born again to be saved. From what I understand, Eastern Orthodox Christians also believe the same way. I personally don't have the same understanding of the term that a fundamentalist Baptist might hold, nor do I believe its a necessity for salvation.

It doesn't matter what you call it. Do ccatholics believe you need to confess jesus as lord and beelieve god raised him from the dead to go to heaven.

Calel99 · Jan 30, 2006

I think the message is getting lost. When you are talking about being "born again" this does not mean you have to die first. We are all sinners, there is not one of us who is pure and innocent. When we are children, we do not have control over our emotions, which gives us the opportunity to sin in our lives. To think impure thoughs, to act with disrespect towards parents or others, these are the things that keep us from being perfect. Those think about another woman/man in an impure way have already committed adultry (granted if you or they were married). To accept Jesus Christ as your savior, is the moment you are born again IN LIFE!!! You are still not perfect, but to understand what you do and ask for forgiveness in Jesus's name is what will get you on the path to heaven. You can still have good works, but what is the point of good works if you are still tainted with impure thoughts or actions?

chokmah · Jan 30, 2006

Calel:

Do you believe that there is any support material for the Christian idea of "born again" or did it start with Jesus' statements?

Calel99 · Jan 30, 2006

chokmah said:
Calel:

Do you believe that there is any support material for the Christian idea of "born again" or did it start with Jesus' statements?

From what I understand, it began with Jesus. The Jews were God's chosen people. And I believe that over time, the belief in the Torah was fading or becoming warped, just as the belief in all spiritual religions are today. God had to come up with a new idea to prevent his people from a sentence to Hades. So he delivered us Jesus as a savior.

rowena · Jan 30, 2006

urnotme said:
It doesn't matter what you call it. Do ccatholics believe you need to confess jesus as lord and beelieve god raised him from the dead to go to heaven.

Why don't you go ask in the Catholic subform? I'm not a Catholic, and while I have an idea of their beliefs on this issue, I don't know enough to speak as an expert.

I can say this though, confessing Jesus as Lord and believeing God raised him from the dead is not what is typically meant by the term "born again". The standard Evangelical usage of the term refers more to an experience one has where one makes a sort of decision for Christ and becomes saved. Not all Christians believe that your salvation is relient on one single experience where you make a single decision. There are groups and people out there who believe that salvation is a life-long process. There are still others who believe that one doesn't have to be a Christian to be saved.

Personally, I don't believe that one has to be born again in order to be saved. I believe that some people do have a born again experience (and thats wonderful if you have) but I don't believe that anyone's salvation hinges on having one or not.

arunma · Jan 31, 2006

For reference, everyone, the term "born again" is used in St. John 3:3 and 1 Peter 1:3.

Chokmah said:
"Born again" comes from performing "teshuvah" in Judaism.

Maybe the concepts are similar. But in Christianity, the term usually refers to a saving experience with Christ which results in sanctification. In otherwords, being born again preceeds repentence, rather than succeeding it.

BuddhistGuy said:
I think you have put it perfectly and succinctly. You have stated the exact reason why I am not a Christian anymore. The whole idea of Christianity is based on the direct experience of salvation, without which one's faith is meaningless. Since I never had this experience, never had a feeling of salvation or a direct intimation of "God's grace" I could nto accept Christianity on its own premises. Buddhism, on the other hand, teaches that one will experience less suffering IN SHORT TIME as a result of Buddhsit practice. And so I did: the religion proved itself true to me.

I had a direct experience of salvation after converting to Christianity (from a dharmic religion, actually). Does that prove Christianity to be true, in your eyes? Probably not, and that is the same reason for which your experience doesn't convince us that Buddhism is a true religion.

peaceful soul · Jan 31, 2006

originally posted by arunma

For reference, everyone, the term "born again" is used in St. John 3:3 and 1 Peter 1:3.

Maybe the concepts are similar. But in Christianity, the term usually refers to a saving experience with Christ which results in sanctification. In otherwords, being born again preceeds repentence, rather than succeeding it.

How true. Similarity should not defacto imply something borrowed or influenced by another. Born again implies one's spirit has been affected by God's spirit (Holy Spirit) which causes the person to come under the influence of God in his life rather than his own fleshly guidance which leads him away from God.

I had a direct experience of salvation after converting to Christianity (from a dharmic religion, actually). Does that prove Christianity to be true, in your eyes? Probably not, and that is the same reason for which your experience doesn't convince us that Buddhism is a true religion.

Also, how true. It is a fallacy to think that gaining peace, having a life change, or some spiritual experience alone creates a true path. The Bible shows that we have to look at the total picture and not the parts to know the truth! Amen, and thanks Arunma for pointing that out so succinctly. Just like the theory that all paths lead to the same place isn't true; so is the notion that all experiences that bring about a positive action are a path to God. Not At All!

arunma · Jan 31, 2006

peaceful soul said:
Also, how true. It is a fallacy to think that gaining peace, having a life change, or some spiritual experience alone creates a true path. The Bible shows that we have to look at the total picture and not the parts to know the truth! Amen, and thanks Arunma for pointing that out so succinctly. Just like the theory that all paths lead to the same place isn't true; so is the notion that all experiences that bring about a positive action are a path to God. Not At All!

You've mentioned a popular belief that I feel particularly compelled to refute. As you correctly said, it is wrong to believe that all religions lead to the same place. The Bible very clearly teaches that Christ is the only Savior, that there is none other besides him, and that non-Christians do not have any possibility of salvation apart from faith in him.

Now, if someone wants to disbelieve traditional Christianity, then it is their free choice to do so. But let us not say that traditional, orthodox Christianity teaches that unbelievers have even the most minute possibility of salvation; such doctrine is blasphemy against our Lord Jesus!

Thank you for mentioning this false doctrine, Peaceful Soul. it is important for us in the church to combat heterodox beliefs.

PureX · Jan 31, 2006

arunma said:
The Bible very clearly teaches that Christ is the only Savior, that there is none other besides him, and that non-Christians do not have any possibility of salvation apart from faith in him.

Yes, but it could be argued that Christ died for everyone. So in effect there are no "non-Christians". You are assuming that phrases like "believeth in me" mean "believe in the Christian religious dogma that has sprung up about me after I died". But phrases like "believeth in me" and "through me" could just as easily be referring to the idea of Christ as God's love in human form healing and saving us from ourselves, rather than the various other religious doctrines that have come to call themselves Christianity.

The people who promote a given religious perspective tend to want to believe that their perspective is the only true perspective and that everyone else's perspective is wrong. This is the nature of the human ego. But in truth, the story of Jesus is just a bare sketch, and it leaves room for a lot of different interpretations. Religionists assume that Christ is exclusive, and that their interpretation of Christ is the one and only correct interpretation. But that's really just the result of their own ego, I think.

chokmah · Jan 31, 2006

Calel99 said:
From what I understand, it began with Jesus.

So, you believe it was a completely novel idea?

Yusuf Evans · Nov 12, 2006

chokmah said:
Calel:

Do you believe that there is any support material for the Christian idea of "born again" or did it start with Jesus' statements?

It began with Christ, when he spoke to Nicodemus. Before then, it was just a matter of sacrifice. Yes, John the Baptist was "baptizing" people. However, that baptism did not encompass the meaning of being born again that Christ spoke about.

ChavaK · Nov 12, 2006

RichardT said:
To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code, and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

My beliefs are not about following a "moral code"...they
are about following the commandments G-d gave us.
I do not do the commandments to have G-d accept me
into "heaven"; but because He has said this is what we
are to do. They are done because of love for HaShem
and His commandments, not to gain access to
"heaven" in the world to come...

RichardT · Nov 12, 2006

wt, why did you reply to this thread? It's almost 1 year old, almost everything I said about a year ago, I regret...

Yusuf Evans · Nov 12, 2006

RichardT said:
wt, why did you reply to this thread? It's almost 1 year old, almost everything I said about a year ago, I regret...

I opened it back up.

Bookofknowledge · Nov 12, 2006

BlackElk said:
I opened it back up.

why? I don't understand why you making RichardT travel back in time 1 year...

He has come such a long way... any way now it's open you can tell us what you like most about this thread...

Druweid · Nov 12, 2006

RichardT said:
wt, why did you reply to this thread? It's almost 1 year old, almost everything I said about a year ago, I regret...

Don't harbor regrets. A wise man once said, "Never disdain the lower rungs of your ascent to greatness." Look at where you once were, and then look at where you are now. Understand the journey you made to get here. You may yet, one day, meet someone who is much like you were at that time. You would be of great benefit to that person.

Respectfully,
-- Druweid

ChavaK · Nov 12, 2006

RichardT said:
wt, why did you reply to this thread? It's almost 1 year old, almost everything I said about a year ago, I regret...

I did not even notice the date of the original posting..all I saw was the title, so I responded...
Maybe you can contact a mod and have it closed?

Skillganon · Nov 12, 2006

ChavaK said:
I did not even notice the date of the original posting..all I saw was the title, so I responded...
Maybe you can contact a mod and have it closed?

No, please carry on. Where will we be without our sweet memories?

ChavaK · Nov 13, 2006

Skillganon said:
No, please carry on. Where will we be without our sweet memories?

just thought I would suggest it, since the original
poster has requested that the thread die a natural
death....

AlanGurvey · Nov 14, 2006

Bookofknowledge said:
why? I don't understand why you making RichardT travel back in time 1 year...

He has come such a long way... any way now it's open you can tell us what you like most about this thread...

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

There's one thing that dosn't seem to be understood by non-christians...

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