There's one thing that dosn't seem to be understood by non-christians...

chokmah · Jan 5, 2006

I'm probably repeating a lot of what vaj has written, but who cares.

JRNetwork said:
Since both Judaism and Christianity share the text of the Old Testament, if that is wrong then so is Judaism.

1) The Christian "Old" Testament is NOT the same as the Jewish Tanakh. The Christian version uses the Hebrew & Greek translations. The Jewish uses only the Hebrew. Hence, there are translational and interpretational variations. The texts are not identical.

2) Therefore, textually, if Christianity's interpretation or translation is wrong; then it has ZERO effect on Judaism's interpretation or translation.

JRN said:
I mean COMPLETELY, not only the part that sets it apart form other religions.

Your EMPHASIS doesn't make your premise correct. You're dealing with faulty assumptions.

JRN said:
If Jesus, GOD, and EVERYTHING in the Bible DID NOT exist, then Juadism would be wrong, since Christianity, Judaism and Islam all believe in the same God.

Jesus has ZERO bearing on Judaism in any way, shape or form. The nature of G-d differs when it comes to the Judaic and the Christian perspectives.

The similarities are next to nil.

JRN said:
So if he were not real, then all three religions would be wrong. If Jesus never existed, then the Qur'an would be wrong. If Abraham, Moses and numerous other prophets named in all three holy books never existed, then all three religions would be wrong. That is what I meant.

Well... you presented it poorly.

chokmah · Jan 5, 2006

JRNetwork said:
.... I do not think you see my point. Although the descriptions of each person mentioned in all three books may be different, they are the same person, even if the differences are great, they are still meerly details. You said yourself that it is not an exact copy, but it is a copy, which means there is at least some truth to it (Torah compared to the Old Testament) and if the large chunk of truth about the person in the Old Testament is a lie, then you no longer have a complete image of the person in the Torah (or Qur'an).

I can see that you're trying really hard to make your point stick, but once again, you're not going to get any ground in this issue.

The difference between Judaism and Christianity are manifold: Scripturally, interpretationally, doctrinally, theologically... so on and so forth.

JRN said:
An example would be....
If Moses were a....TV. Judaism describes a TV as a cube shaped electronic machine in which images are transmitted from radio waves, and is powered by electricity.

Now lets say that Christianity describes a TV as a cube shaped electronic machine in which images are transmitted from low frequency radio waves, and is powered by AC electricity.

If all that Christianity said about TVs were complete lie, then there are no TVs, and even though Judaism has TVs in its religion, if this was a lie, then there would never have been TVs (although their faith in TVs would be unaltered).

Your analogy falls short (drastically).

Abdurrahim · Jan 6, 2006

JRNetwork said:
I think this was already dicussed.

Where is it discussed.
I cannot find any post addressing this is copied from mithraism to christianity.

sidhe · Jan 6, 2006

JRNetwork said:
An example would be....
If Moses were a....TV. Judaism describes a TV as a cube shaped electronic machine in which images are transmitted from radio waves, and is powered by electricity.

Now lets say that Christianity describes a TV as a cube shaped electronic machine in which images are transmitted from low frequency radio waves, and is powered by AC electricity.

If all that Christianity said about TVs were complete lie, then there are no TVs, and even though Judaism has TVs in its religion, if this was a lie, then there would never have been TVs (although their faith in TVs would be unaltered).

Aye, but that's the problem. They aren't talking about the same thing at all.

To use your metaphor, Moses is a cathode-ray tube TV, and Jesus is a plasma TV. Judaism describes a CRT TV as a cube-shaped electronic machine in which images are transmitted from radio waves, and is powered by electricity.

Christianity describes the CRT TV as a foreshadowing and foretelling of the plasma TV, with similar properties, but the plasma is far superior.

If plasma TV's don't exist, the existence of the CRT TV is still valid.

I don't think that made sense at all. I've been delving into some serious esoterica for the past few days and my mind is numb.

HummingbirdSong · Jan 6, 2006

sidhe said:
Aye, but that's the problem. They aren't talking about the same thing at all.

To use your metaphor, Moses is a cathode-ray tube TV, and Jesus is a plasma TV. Judaism describes a CRT TV as a cube-shaped electronic machine in which images are transmitted from radio waves, and is powered by electricity.

Christianity describes the CRT TV as a foreshadowing and foretelling of the plasma TV, with similar properties, but the plasma is far superior.

If plasma TV's don't exist, the existence of the CRT TV is still valid.

I don't think that made sense at all. I've been delving into some serious esoterica for the past few days and my mind is numb.

Actually, that made perfect sense.

In other words, "Similar, but not the same," so that if one does not exist, it does not negate the existence of the other, similar item.

vajradhara · Jan 6, 2006

HummingbirdSong said:
Actually, that made perfect sense.

In other words, "Similar, but not the same," so that if one does not exist, it does not negate the existence of the other, similar item.

precisely

it is, of course, part of the Christian dogma that they are faithfully reproducing the Torah (and i mean the written Torah, not the Oral Torah) and thus, their conclusion that if they are shown to be incorrect that would invalidate the source material as well.

however, this is simply a Christian teaching without an acutal foundation. as Chokmah noted, there is no Greek used in the Torah yet, the Greek forms the bulk of the Christan translation and transliteration.

part of the belief is that those beings that did the translateing where working with the providence of the Holy Spirit to ensure that nothing was corrupted or lost or misunderstood and mis-translated.

however, a textual comparison of the Torah and the Christian Old Testament shows that this is not the case. the two works are different, have a different focus and hold different places within the two paradigms.

thus, the Jewish traditions stands or falls on its own texts, not those of the Christian tradition.

i like the metaphor of the televisions as well... good job, that.

metta,

~v

JRNetwork · Jan 7, 2006

I think i see what you are trying to say. I'm gonna have to go back a few pages and read what this thread was about before this "arguement" started.

Exegete12 · Jan 21, 2006

Casiopeia said:
Being Born again in my opinion is jus a movement within evangelistic Christians. I see no need to be born again. It has nothing to do with God or my beliefs.

. WRONG. Jesus said "you must be born again". He said 'unless you become like a child (i.e. having faith and belief) you would not inherit the Kingdom of God."

Exegete12 · Jan 21, 2006

monkey88 said:
umm... what is the one thing we don't understand? the truth of being born again? sorry it just didn't seem too clear.

Every person is first born of a woman, that is the first birth and our spirit is at enmity with God, we are born in sin. Just watch children play and you will see what I mean. As we grow, we are all about our own EGOs, but when we become born-again (our second birth albeit spiritual), Christ resides within us, it is no longer us that live, but Christ that lives within us "It's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me". "Christ in you the hope of all glory." This is the born-again experience or phenomena as someone said on the thread. "In Him we live and move and have our being".

PureX · Jan 21, 2006

AlHannah said:
Every person is first born of a woman, that is the first birth and our spirit is at enmity with God, we are born in sin. Just watch children play and you will see what I mean. As we grow, we are all about our own EGOs, but when we become born-again (our second birth albeit spiritual), Christ resides within us, it is no longer us that live, but Christ that lives within us "It's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me". "Christ in you the hope of all glory." This is the born-again experience or phenomena as someone said on the thread. "In Him we live and move and have our being".

I disagree.

Christ (God's spirit made flesh) exists within us all by the fact that we are all the expressions of, and recipients of, God's love because we are part of God's creation. Creation is God's spirit expressing itself, and the essence of that spirit is love. However, we are not aware of this divine and loving spirit within our own nature when we are born, physically, and so we wrongly believe that we are here alone, and that our purpose is then only to pursue our own pleasure.

Being "born again" refers to becoming mentally and spiritually awakened to the true nature of our own existence as both expressions of God's love, and as the recipients of God's love in human form. And as we become aware of our own true nature and purpose, we understand that we are not here alone, and we no longer wish live for our own pleasure, but rather for the purpose of giving and receiving God's love.

At least, this is what I believe is the essential message of Christianity, when viewed untainted by institutional religious bias.

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win · Jan 21, 2006

RichardT said:
Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

Being born again is not new to Hinduism. In fact, I am a born again Hindu.

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win · Jan 21, 2006

Osiris said:
so, in christianity one is only saved when they are born-again?
they have to first experience this born-again phenomena?

so, hinduism was true this whole time

when you die with good karma, and are born again, you are getting closer to Brahman.

There is also a concept of being 'born again' not in flesh but in Spirit (in the same birth ) in Hinduism. A born again Hindu is called Dvijan(twice-born). The first birth is in through the mother's womb. The second is a spiritual birth.

Eudaimonist · Jan 21, 2006

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win said:
There is also a concept of being 'born again' not in flesh but in Spirit (in the same birth ) in Hinduism. A born again Hindu is called Dvijan(twice-born). The first birth is in through the mother's womb. The second is a spiritual birth.

How old is this concept in Hinduism?

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win · Jan 21, 2006

Eudaimonist said:
How old is this concept in Hinduism?

It has been there since the time of the Vedas. How old are the Vedas? Now that is tough for me to answer.

It is both a ceremony and a spiritual rebirth, kind of. Something like baptism but also like being born again.

During the ceremony, the person(who is going through) receives "Brahmopadesam"(Instructions about the concept of Brahman) from his father. He has to immerse his body in water( or atleast take a head bath) and from that point on he is "born again". It is not done for women and also not for the Shudra caste, sadly. Even though the ceremony is not for all, the spiritual rebirth is.

indianx · Jan 21, 2006

I don't know, I don't care much for ceremonies or rituals, they're just traditions and traditions have very little significance in spiritual progress. But, there are some who believe that tradition is religion.

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win · Jan 21, 2006

indianx said:
I don't know, I don't care much for ceremonies or rituals, they're just traditions and traditions have very little significance in spiritual progress. But, there are some who believe that tradition is religion.

I agree with you indianx. Rituals don't automatically lead one to spiritual progress. Nevertheless, I still wear my sacred thread, even though I don't do my daily sandhiyavandanams. Even though I can progress spiritually without rituals and symbols(like temples), I like them. Seeing an ancient temple, whether spiritually enlightening or not, gives me a happy feeling, even a sense of pride(not the pride that goes before a fall).

PurpletheHeathen · Jan 21, 2006

RichardT said:
Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

Actually I AM well aware of this. Most of the morality question I see come from Christians asking atheists how they could possibly have a moral code at all. So, to me, if Atheists misunderstand faith over works it may be the Christians own doing.

Of course not all, but for many claiming Jesus they want to point out the sin in the life of the non-christian, but want everyone, including the non-christian, to know they are not perfect, just forgiven.

JRNetwork · Jan 21, 2006

Yes, I'm gonna agree with the one of the last posts. You are not "born again" unless you have "died before". The "born again" experience only applies to those that have lost their way and found it again.

And yes, this "born again" thing seems to be a mainly evangelistic thing, as it does not seem to be recognized by the more orthodox Churches.

But whatever floats your boat...

RichardT · Jan 22, 2006

JRNetwork said:
Yes, I'm gonna agree with the one of the last posts. You are not "born again" unless you have "died before". The "born again" experience only applies to those that have lost their way and found it again.

And yes, this "born again" thing seems to be a mainly evangelistic thing, as it does not seem to be recognized by the more orthodox Churches.

But whatever floats your boat...

well then there obviously wrong because Jesus talked about it... Unless you are born again you are not going to get into heaven...

Accept Jesus as your saviour now or else your doomed to hell...

JRNetwork · Jan 22, 2006

And who says I havent

There's one thing that dosn't seem to be understood by non-christians...

chokmah

Guest

chokmah

Guest

Veteran

Seemly Unseelie

8-track mind in an mp3 world

Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom

Active Member

Veteran

Veteran

Junior Member

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win

Guest

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win

Guest

I believe in life before death!

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win

Guest

Veteran

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win

Guest

Regular Member

Active Member

Contributor

Active Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency