There's one thing that dosn't seem to be understood by non-christians...

Zen_Woof · Dec 30, 2005

RichardT said:
Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

Hi Richard.

I understand that Christianity is about both works and faith, not just works alone. I grew up Catholic, so that idea was drilled pretty firmly into my head.

There is no permanent heaven in Buddhism, although there are both heaven and hell realms in the Tibetan variety. And yes, you are completely responsible for your actions. Karma is larger than just "do good, and you get good" but that'll probably work for now. Also, Buddhists don't believe in God in the same way that Christians do, although gods exist in some schools.

Hope this is helpful!

Metta,
ZW

HummingbirdSong · Dec 30, 2005

RichardT said:
Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

I would agree with this, for the most part.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

Not all religions are based on this, no.

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

This is not entirely true. Some of us have....

morningstar2651 · Dec 30, 2005

I understand the "born-again" phenomenon. There are similarities in other religions. I'd post a link that discusses it in the context of witchcraft, but it's in a witchcraft tutorial. Although the tutorial is devoid of religious leanings, I doubt the moderators would be happy if I posted the link. I will, however, quote parts of it that pertain to the experience akin to being "born again".

It's quite a leap of faith to know an unseen reality is there, as opposed to just believing in one. I've seen some truly religious people, who believe in a soul and an afterlife, scoff at anyone who claims to have actually walked around in that soul out-of-body. In truth, that is the great burden of the art of metaphysics -- very few people will believe you, as your "proof" is all personal experience. Only after they have accomplished the same feats will they appreciate what you've been through.

Belief vs. experience is an important staple of witchcraft: You can read as many tabulature books as you like, but you can't truly appreciate them until you try to play the guitar for the first time. Therefore, take nothing herein seriously unless you're ready to try to responsibly apply it.

As a general rule, if you're asking yourself during these practice sessions, "Hey, is this what they were talking about? Are these the buzzing and shaking sensations I read about? Does this mean that I'm out of body?" then the answer is an emphatic NO. If you do manage the feat, then there will be no doubt in your mind about it.

A paradigm shift! A change in your beliefs about reality itself. Suddenly any assumptions you had about a soul or a separate plane of existence will shift from believing to knowing. This is no small feat, and it should not be undertaken by the faint of heart.

Death and rebirth is also common in intiation. This quote is from the article Death and Initiation by Karl Lembke.

In the usual initiation rite, there is a ritual death and rebirth. The initiate dies to his old life and is reborn to a new life as an initiate. With this ritual death and rebirth comes, if the initiate has been properly prepared, a significant change in consciousness and awareness. The initiate emerges transformed -- transfigured. This is not unique to Wicca, many mystery religions use the death and rebirth motif in their initiation rites. There is even speculation that the three days Lazarus spent in the tomb was a rite of initiation.

Abdurrahim · Dec 31, 2005

The opening prayer of the liturgy begins:

"O! first genesis of my genesis! First beginning of my beginning! First spirit of the spirit that is within me! .... May it please thee to translate me, who am trammelled by the nature which underlies me, to an immortal genesis .... that I may be born again in spirit; that I may be initiated, and the sacred Spirit may breathe on me!"

From the

Pagan regeration

CHAPTER VI

DEATH AND NEW BIRTH IN MITHRAISM

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pr/pr08.htm

any comments ?

SarahTheBookworm · Dec 31, 2005

As many other posters have already said RichardT, your initial assumption that all other religions are about keeping a moral code in order to go to a pleasant afterlife is wrong: the most obvious example to counter this assumption would be Buddhism.

As for your description of how it felt to be "born again"- Countless people, of various faiths and philosophies have experienced "moments of truth" where they felt that they'd attained a glimpse of an ultimate truth, and felt many of the same feelings you did. (I think theres a word for those kinds of feelings: numinous)

RichardT · Dec 31, 2005

SarahTheBookworm said:
As many other posters have already said RichardT, your initial assumption that all other religions are about keeping a moral code in order to go to a pleasant afterlife is wrong: the most obvious example to counter this assumption would be Buddhism.

As for your description of how it felt to be "born again"- Countless people, of various faiths and philosophies have experienced "moments of truth" where they felt that they'd attained a glimpse of an ultimate truth, and felt many of the same feelings you did. (I think theres a word for those kinds of feelings: numinous)

How does an atheist explain this ? And what is this all about then ?

psychedelicist · Dec 31, 2005

RichardT said:
Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

One of the reasons I prefer not to talk about my faith with the interest of converting others. I have had a religious experience if you want to call it that, that is beyond description. Yet it is all either of us can go on. Since I have not experienced what you have, nor you mine, we are at a bit of a atalemate from the beginning, if we wish for each other to understand these phenomena themselves.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Nope. Taoism for one does not advocate any kind of afterlife. True they might lean towards a certain moral code (the principles of yin, which I could go further into detail about if you wish), but no one moral code is required of a taoist.

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

And as I have said, my reasoning comes from my own religious experiences which I can neither prove or even explain very well to you. However, I like the term born again sionce it really does well to describe my experience as well, but actually led me away from christianity rather than towards it.

psychedelicist · Dec 31, 2005

RichardT said:
How does an atheist explain this ? And what is this all about then ?

As a technical atheist I might want to take a crack at this. I could give you a few explanations really, one psychological and one neurological.

Psychologically, I would say that though we can percieve everything existing we cannot get a 'real' glimpse of it, because whenever we percieve something, we interpret it and intellectualize it in our own way, and thus we might interpret it completely wrong. This process of overintellectualizing is what the hindu's refer to as maya or the illusion, I believe. In a 'moment of truth', your perceptions are set aside and you see reality for what it truly is. However, once we begin to rationalize and intellectualize this experience we lose it. It's a complicated thing to try and explain, but it is the basic tenets of most eastern religion- to attempt to set aside this illusion, and see reality for what it truly exists as.

Neurologically speaking, theres a neat little gland in your brain called the pineal gland. It secretes a few different chemicals, namely serotonin, melatonin, and bufotenin, all of which have extremely profound impacts on your perception. In fact, these and a few other chemicals are responsible for your perception itself at any given time. Bufotenin in particular has an interesting effect- too much and you can have an extremely profound religious experience. One of the big parts of this experience is an overwhelming feeling of having found the truth. The experience is also often similar to the above paragraph. (an interesting fact- most people who have near death experiences are shown to have had extremely heightened bufotenin levels at the time. Why bufotenin would be produced when you're about to die, I have no idea, but it's interesting to think about it's relation to NDE's).

At least that's my understanding, some atheists might have different explanations.

Eudaimonist · Jan 1, 2006

RichardT said:
How does an atheist explain this ? And what is this all about then ?

Humans have complex psychologies. It's not easy to explain the numinous, but it could just be a quirk in human psychology, or perhaps there is some evolutionary reason for this. It's difficult to say at this point.

Abdurrahim · Jan 1, 2006

In the name of The God the most gracious the most merciful

RichardT said:
Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

The opening prayer of the liturgy begins:

"O! first genesis of my genesis! First beginning of my beginning! First spirit of the spirit that is within me! .... May it please thee to translate me, who am trammelled by the nature which underlies me, to an immortal genesis .... that I may be born again in spirit; that I may be initiated, and the sacred Spirit may breathe on me!"

From the Pagan regeration

CHAPTER VI DEATH AND NEW BIRTH IN MITHRAISM

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pr/pr08.htm

If the born again phenomena has started with Christianity .
What does this mean ?
One more question ?
Where is the born again phenomena explained in your Bible.

peace be with you

xAtheistx · Jan 1, 2006

RichardT said:
Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

JRNetwork · Jan 1, 2006

vedickings said:
You can born again without any good work? Hmm... This does not sound right, maybe this is why the world is the way it is, cause no work is needed, from the Christian view.

In Hinduism or the yoga system good work is most important over believeing in God!

That is a protestant belief. Catholics believe that good works are needed to gain entry into heaven. However most Protestant denominations reject this and say you need only to believe in Christ as your savior to enter heaven. I do not believe it is that easy either.

Abdurrahim · Jan 2, 2006

Abdurrahim said:
In the name of The God the most gracious the most merciful

The opening prayer of the liturgy begins:

"O! first genesis of my genesis! First beginning of my beginning! First spirit of the spirit that is within me! .... May it please thee to translate me, who am trammelled by the nature which underlies me, to an immortal genesis .... that I may be born again in spirit; that I may be initiated, and the sacred Spirit may breathe on me!"

From the Pagan regeration

CHAPTER VI DEATH AND NEW BIRTH IN MITHRAISM

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pr/pr08.htm

If the born again phenomena has started with Christianity .
What does this mean ?
One more question ?
Where is the born again phenomena explained in your Bible.

peace be with you

It seems nobody is trying to answer but I will repeat till I get an answer .

Abdurrahim · Jan 2, 2006

Any Comments ?

JRNetwork · Jan 2, 2006

This "born again" phenomenon is an unorthrodox way to look at Christianity. The closest I can come to defining it is as the feeling you recieve when you have accepted Jesus in your life and your life is going much better.

Abdurrahim · Jan 3, 2006

JRNetwork said:
This "born again" phenomenon is an unorthrodox way to look at Christianity. The closest I can come to defining it is as the feeling you recieve when you have accepted Jesus in your life and your life is going much better.

It seems , it has not started with christianity and it is a pagan doctrine .
What do you think.
What type of christians believe this ?

Druweid · Jan 3, 2006

Abdurrahim said:
Where is the born again phenomena explained in your Bible.

As memory serves, it's in the New Testament, The Gospel According to John, Chapter 3, primarily verses 1 - 12.

-- Druweid

saladin1970 · Jan 3, 2006

RichardT said:
i'm trying to prove that christianity is not about works , but about the "born-again" phenomena...

Being "born-again" in christianity is the belief that once you accept Jesus as your savior , your spirit is now cleansed from all unrighteousness and biblical truth is revealed to you , and you also get a super naturalist feeling ( the born again phenomena ) of complete Joy , Peace , and Truth... If you have any questions about the born again phenomina , please ask them here ...

This born again phenonomon, or the personal relationship with God has two implications
1) There is NO way of knowing it isn't the devil you have this personal relationship with. Take for instance all the nutcases in US jails who murdered their kids because 'God told them to', etc. Since it is a personal relationship and is not exposed to the wider community it has NO VALUE.
2) If personal relationship was the mechanism God uses to communicate with his subjects, then this would negate the reason for prophethood and the scriptures. As they carry no weight if it is about personal relationships of what you perceive as god.

We know that scriptures are divine because of the criteria of no contradictions, or errors etc.
If that scripture has errors or contradictions then it is no longer divine but has corruption and no amount of 'personal relationships' with god is going to bring you an understanding of God.

alyaba · Jan 3, 2006

doesnt born again mean that you were a christian but moved away from christianity and then you were born again and came back to it?
in islam that is called towbah wich has its rules one of them is to truly mean it from your heart and agree or promise god that you wont go back to the bad things you did, if you are doing tawbah from stealing then you must give back what you stole and so on. many people have done tawbah and never went back to there old ways of living, and there are many storys of that.

xAtheistx · Jan 3, 2006

Born-again.

There's one thing that dosn't seem to be understood by non-christians...

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