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There's a thread about CPU:s for Logos and browsing CF

Unix

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Unix

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Perhaps everyone is not understanding what and why I'm asking over there, I'm trying to get replies there about CPU:s that are worth the cost - not pure gaming CPU:s but adequate ones. I don't yet know enough about AMD CPU:s myself to make an informed decision.
 
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Single-core is too little for me to recommend to anyone anymore, for any reason. When I run VirtualBox to test Linux distros, I always use two cores for the instance instead of one. I do not know if Logos itself is able to take advantage of more than one core at a time, but any recent operating system will, and that is where dual core becomes an advantage. One core to run your primary app, another to handle everything else in the background. The result is a much speedier user experience. I do not have Logos, nor have I benchmarked it on dual core vs. quad core. For most apps out there, dual vs. quad does not make a significant difference.
 
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EphesiaNZ

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Perhaps everyone is not understanding what and why I'm asking over there, I'm trying to get replies there about CPU:s that are worth the cost - not pure gaming CPU:s but adequate ones. I don't yet know enough about AMD CPU:s myself to make an informed decision.

Any standard Intel CPU (probably not celeron) say 2.8GHz or better should do the trick or even an i3 CPU if you want to spend the extra. Most of those CPU's will have an onboard cache of 3MB which is usually more than enough when things get busy. I tend to avoid AMD for laptops as their processors usually run hotter than Intel. Laptops need to be as cool as possible to ensure a long life.
 
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Unix

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I'm trying to find out if a little older AMD quad core CPUs with adequate L2- or L3-cache in the CPU will eliminate Logos hanging up when clicking for example the Library Button (where You start to organize Your library or open books) among a couple of more details. Softwares such as Microsoft Word 2010 seem to run faster on quad core. Some things in Logos such as indexing (when You initially install + when You have bought more books and when there's updates to Your previous books) is much faster with quad core (the process uses all four cores) and You are perfectly able to work with the software while it's indexing. On dual core it's very slow. But other than the indexing there's not a whole lot of information on the Logos forums about the use on quad core which is why I've posted questions. There's also a thread which I've started in the "General" subforum: Difficult to get answers on hardware questions in Logos 5:
Single-core is too little for me to recommend to anyone anymore, for any reason. [...] I do not know if Logos itself is able to take advantage of more than one core at a time, but any recent operating system will, and that is where dual core becomes an advantage. One core to run your primary app, another to handle everything else in the background. The result is a much speedier user experience. I do not have Logos, nor have I benchmarked it on dual core vs. quad core. For most apps out there, dual vs. quad does not make a significant difference.
 
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I haven't got much experience with AMD, but I think they're excellent value for money.

Alas, I think it's one of those things that you likely won't know until you've tried it for yourself.

I can't see why an AMD quad core wouldn't be sufficient though.
 
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Unix

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I'm not sure i3 is good, the standard recommendation on the forums is 3rd generation i5 (which I can't afford for many years). There is an ad for a used quad core AMD which might barely be within reach (the ad is very old) and I'm trying to ask the seller what CPU model it is so that I can find out the cache size. I hope it's 4MB. Whether I buy it depends both on how much lower price the seller will offer, how many % off do You think I should ask?, and on how willing an Accordance user that I'm in touch with is to swap libraries with me (meaning that I would get some of his Accordance books added to my account and that he would get some of my equivalent Logos books as he is about to give up using Accorance and wants Logos but can't afford to duplicate everything, but he seems slightly desperate though) so that I would get Accordance books.
I prefer AMD. When comparing the used AMD quad core to a current ad with the same hardware specs the Intel computer is not as good when it comes to the graphics, the Intel has a little better battery life, and the Intel might be a little more expensive (the ad price is exactly the same, but the Intel ad is only 3 days old while the AMD ad is 1½ months old):
or even an i3 CPU if you want to spend the extra. Most of those CPU's will have an onboard cache of 3MB which is usually more than enough when things get busy. I tend to avoid AMD for laptops as their processors usually run hotter than Intel. Laptops need to be as cool as possible to ensure a long life.



Logos renders graphics graphically through WPF/.NET, so it demands decent graphics processing hardware. Accordance is not like that.
 
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MrJim

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Good idea for a thread~~~I'm prejudiced towards AMD and will only buy Intel processors, but the key word here is prejudice. None of my intel processors have failed, and AMDs are put into cheaper computers but wonder if I would actually notice the difference since the only things I do on a computer are internet surf, email, and word processing...
 
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Unix

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This is a decent laptop for Logos: http://www.added-dimension.co.uk/ExpertNotes/2010/HP/Notebooks/WK303EA.pdf ... or that same model with i5 540M CPU. Batteries for this battery interface will keep being manufactured for a long time. This computer does despite the small monitor consume a lot of power because of the CPU - I recommend to use energy saving settings in Windows.
A quad-core computer (a little bit slower) with larger monitor which consumes less battery but does not stand up to vibration tests like the above, is: Packard Bell EasyNote TE69KB 15.6 Bärbar dator - Electroworld Sverige
... it comes new with 8GB RAM. 512 MB shared graphics memory. 15.6" monitor. It says in the specifications that it should operate 4½ hours on battery. This computer may cost a little bit more than the above one, but both are c:a $400 incl. VAT:
Thanks! There's a new thread for all hardware speed issues and Logos: This thread is the hardware subforum. The speed issues:
 
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Unix

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Very very old quad core AMD or equally old quad core Intel is not sufficient for Logos, at least not with a somewhat big library or if You want to pull down menus fast, and a really old quad core Intel laptop will also have poor graphics impacting scrolling. There are also some very recent low-budget Intel processors I would NOT buy or recommend anyone using Logos - especially if they come with Intel Graphics instead of Radeon, whether quad- or dual core.

When it comes to desktops, if You are on a tight budget: try to find a tripple core AMD. They are identified as "X3". I almost bought one, but it was a too long trip to go and get it from another town, closer to a hundred miles than fifty, one way. It would have been a good purchase though considering I ended up spending more on a quad core, including a pretty unecessary computer workshop session (I have no good excuse why) and buying a tiny monitor since none of the monitors and adapters I had since before fitted:
I can't see why an AMD quad core wouldn't be sufficient though.



See also my previous post in this thread: This is a decent laptop for....
 
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Unix

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Those of You who are about to buy new low-budget computers, especially desktop, consider AMD triple core now! On Oct. 26. 9 PM Pacific Standard Time (U.S.) there will be huge downloads for all users and indexing of the entire library (latest version). That is much faster on triple than on dual. Also, if You use multiple softwares such as multiple Bible Study and Microsoft Word 2010 or LibreOffice and keep many web browser tabs open, especially if You're not paying to any sites to get rid of ads, triple core instead of dual core is almost a must. I have the said setup (I mean dual core) (regarding Bible Study softwares I have Verbum 5.2a SR-2 and Accordance 10 open) and those other softwares open (Chrome for a browser and it's faster than Firefox) and even though I don't have as many browser tabs as I use to open, typing is a bit slow, as well as switching to Verbum (which is about the same software as Logos):
I do not have Logos, nor have I benchmarked it on dual core vs. quad core. For most apps out there, dual vs. quad does not make a significant difference.



I would like to be able to use Libronix/Logos 3 (none of the newest books work on it, but it's faster, and it would be a way for me to get some of my newly purchased books on this laptop with 15.6" 1366*768 monitor, AMD dual core and hybrid drive) as well on this computer. Those of You who have Verbum or any Logos version (including the current one), I urge You to post in the forum: Logos 3/Libronix and request that the license server error would be fixed so that it would become possible to sync licenses again! EDIT: It's temporarily possible to do an installation with sync, see: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/81659/640638.aspx#640638 Computers are expensive at the moment, as I've explained in: NA28 Nestle-Aland Critical Apparatus - Logos Bible Software Forums
 
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Unix

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I think I'll buy a used 10,000 rpm HDD 150 GB for my spare desktop computer ... EDIT2: it looks like I'll go with an SSD 120 GB instead (one used brand new unused is on the way Kingston v300, $62 and install Windows 8.1 (I negotatied down the price for the used unused OEM license to $50 and I asked a computer workshop whether it could be installed, EDIT3: I got it down to $48)) ... and install Windows Vista 32-bit (I have the DVD and license (from separate sources) and it's not installed on any other computer and I have no other use for the OS). The HDD costs more than the computer cost me. The computer was about $41 1½ years ago with today's currency exchange rate, and the HDD is $69. Specs: 2006 workstation model. Pentium D CPU (dual core 3.4 GHz). 3GB RAM. 19" flat monitor (I have a 17" flat as well). Since it would be Vista I would not be able to install both of my Bible Study softwares - the second newest version of Accordance, which is what I have, requires Windows 7 - and Accordance doesn't have any older version than that that runs on Windows, it used to be Mac and iPad only.
I would be using that computer in the bedroom, for example for reading devotionals. I think I'll buy an extra bundle in Accordance, which has for example a dozen or so devotionals. I won't be buying more devotionals in Logos, other than audio resources, as Logos charges so much for those. Another thing which I'm rather buying in Accordance because of a huge price difference and because I favour Accordance, is Wesley. There will be more things.
I think the 10'000 rpm disk is a better investment than a newer OS. Boot speed is not that important, I'll just start the computer when I expect to have something to do on it in a moment.
EDIT: the seller of a Windows 8.1 license key contacted me. Without that I needed to ask he lowered the price to $55. It's a tempting offer, as it would enable keeping both of the Bible Study softwares up-to-date and is the fastest OS. EDIT3: I got the Win 8.1 license cheaper: $48. It's cheap because it's 64-bit and therefore wouldn't fit his 32-bit-only computer. He says he never used the license but was unable to return it to the store since he had opened it.
I'm reluctant to buy very old used desktop computers that come with small HDDs even if they would be cheaper than my setup, as most of the HDDs in those are probably pretty worn - very few think about changing the drive to a new one. When I looked through all ads in this county this morning, I found only one old/cheap desktop computer that had a new drive. 150 GB is more than enough. Many of the computers I looked at had 80 GB and Windows XP SP3 or Windows 7 SP1. No cheap (maximally $124-$138) computers had Windows 8 or 8.1. Pentium 4 (single core) computers are as cheap as $21 now and some come with Windows 7.
Goes without saying there's are a lot of unsold computers over here, and many ads have no particularly interesting details, CPU model is almost always missing, sometimes they don't even know how much RAM (and when they know, almost all cheap computers over here have 1 or 2 GB and there's never any information whether that can be upgraded or not), sometimes they don't mention how much HDD, and sometimes there's only the chassis brand and no information whatsoever except they do state a price! ^_^ Poor bastards, bad for the environment, I doubt they even go with them to recycle them when they don't get them sold. And such a waste of money to pay for the ads (yes, strangely enough since a while all ads cost over here):
Single-core is too little for me to recommend to anyone anymore, for any reason.



EDIT2: I think I'll also buy a used XP laptop to run my old softwares such as a Greek vocabulary software, a Swedish dictionary, and Pradis Bible Study software (in which I have only the NIVAC Jn -volume) and my Logos 3/Libronix, specs: P4 1.8GHz single core, 512 MB RAM, DVD/CD, bag. I don't know anything about the HDD in it but it's probably about 40 GB. Price: $41, even though the ad is a month old I really don't think the seller is gonna sell it to me cheaper as it says "fixed price", but I could try bidding $5½ less. EDIT3: I just started a thread about whether to buy an XP laptop or to install in a virtual machine in a desktop: Dedicated XP laptop, or virtual machine in a quad core desktop?.

If I get an answer from the ad about the HDD I may buy the 10,000 rpm HDD as well, to use later on to replace one of the drives in my fastest (2009 quad core) desktop computer before any drive in it fails.

Previously edited by Unix; 25th October 2014 at 11:03 AM local time. Reason: HDD size and Windows 8.1 license key
Previously edited by Unix; 25th October 2014 at 10:32 PM local time. Reason: SSD instead of 10,000 rpm HDD
Previously edited by Unix; 25th October 2014 at 10:35 PM local time. Reason: thread about choice between XP laptop or virtual machine (in a desktop)
 
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Unix

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Couldn't get hold of the seller of that one:
I think I'll buy a used 10,000 rpm HDD 150 GB



I saw an ad for a quality HDD 7,200 rpm. It costs $40½. It's from a private person, who has two of them. The specs for the HDD are in this link: http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/products/3863-western-digital-wd5000ys/

One of my laptops died. I'm not sure what kind of error it has, but Windows won't start and the automated repair fails. It has a hybrid drive with 8 GB SSD part, I'm unsure if I should use the hybrid drive in some other computer or if it's worn out? There hasn't been any signs of drive failure.

I'm lacking a Windows 7 Home Premium installation DVD or else I could start installing one computer now. I was thinking of the laptop. It's annoying that there must be hundreds of people in this county that would have a DVD to sell but there are no ads for one and it's a holiday today plus a Saturday and one workshop I know has is never open on Saturdays. I should had bought immediately yesterday when I discovered, but I was SO tired.

I also saw an ad for a good desktop computer cheap, it comes without HDD (or Windows). I'm thinking of buying it now. It's nearby. It costs $189. The only downside of it is that it has noisy fans (it's not damaged or worn out but it's because it has a gaming configuration).
The configuration is:
Case: Cooler Master Mystique 631 (Black)
PSU: Corsair VX 550W
CPU: Intel® Core™2 Quad Q9400
CPU-cooler: Zalman CNPS9500A Ultra Quiet CPU Cooler
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3 (Socket-775)
RAM: 2x Crucial Ballistix 2GB DDR2 800MHz. So it's 4 GB total.
Graphics: Zotac GeForce GTX 560
DVD: Samsung Super-WriteMaster
It's 4-5 years old. The age is the same as and the CPU almost the same as a desktop computer I have with Win 8.1 which I bought this Summer (mine has Core2Quad Q9300 2.5 GHz). (The amount of RAM is the same.) The computer I have starts Verbum (i.e. Logos) 5.2b SR-1 in 21 seconds, which is comparable to much newer computers with Logos 6 or just a few seconds slower than them, as reported by several other users on the forum.
 
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Unix

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Update: I just compared a new Windows 8.1 tablet to an equivalent used desktop computer, to run all the major Bible Study softwares, by the help of specific benchmarks posted on a forum, and the tablet is 5½ times more expensive.
Tablet name: Microsoft Surface 3 (not to be confused with Surface Pro 3 which is much better and more expensive).
Tablet benchmark posted a moment ago: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103065/723296.aspx#723296. EDIT2: here's another benchmark in the same thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/104221/724488.aspx#724488
Additional, non-specific review: http://www.notebookcheck.net/index.php?id=141116
CPU: Intel® Atom™ x7-Z8700 Processor 2MB Cache, 1.6GHz (up to 2.4GHz turbo) quad core
Monitor: 1920 x 1280, 10.8" touch
eMMC Flash storage: 128 GB
RAM: 4 GB, can't be increased, this is a bit insufficient for running the latest version of Logos/Verbum, as Windows needs to cache files in RAM, also indexing (the biggest indexing is upon initial installation if You have lots of books) requires lots of RAM. Lack of RAM causes wear on the disk. EDIT2: How long the indexing takes depends on how much Your books refer to each other (if the company has made the links live of course)
No optical unit (DVD)
Operative System: Windows 8.1
Stereo loudspeakers
Webcams: 8 MP back, 3.5 MP front
Battery life: 10 hours, EDIT2: in real use surfing with Wifi it's more like 7 hours (which is worse than an Android tablet)
Weight: 622 grams = 1⅔ pounds
Colour: silver

Comparison to desktop computers (note: there's high VAT over here):
AMD CPU model: Dell Optiplex 745 SFF , Packard Bell iMedia
"Packard Bell iMedia A5500 NCD
-AMD Phenom Triple Core 2.10 GHz. Processor
-AMD radeon HD 6450 graphics 1GB memory
-4GB RAM
-640 GB S-ATA II HDD
-6xUSB + Cardreader
-DVD-RW
Price: 1,200 SEK"

Intel CPU model: Dator enkel spel/surf
"A simple gaming and surfing computer
The computer has mostly been used for playing League Of Legends and CS:GO.
CPU Intel Core2QUAD Q8200 2.33GHz + Zalman cpu cooler
Motherboard MSI P43 S775
RAM: 6 GB DDR2
HDD: 1.5TB Western Digital
Graphics: Radeon HD5770
Power: 600 W
DVD-ROM
Newly formatted.
Price: 1,200 SEK or highest bid"

EDIT2: for a little bit more money also:
"Budget box + monitor Budget burk + skärm
AMD Phenom 2 X4 940 quad core
XFX Radeon HD7770 GHZ Edition
RAM: Corsair Dominator 4GB DDR2 1066GHZ
Corsair CX500M Semi modular power unit.

Accessories:
Qpad OM-75
Asus keyboard (membran)

Sold without HDD as it's a real slow 640GB 5,400rpm's disk, of course the computer will be tested by buyer before disk is taken out.
Price: 1,500 SEK
Serious buyers only, cheaper if fast deal."

The Surface 3 costs 5½ times more over here, new, than the quoted used desktop computers.
These quoted 1,200 SEK desktop computers are a little better but may come without monitor. Between the two desktop computers I would choose the one with AMD as those are better value - as I've been testing the Intel Core2QUAD with Logos 5 and Verbum 5 since last Summer and it kind of "pauses" every now and then during any kind of use of the computer -it doesn't hang in the traditional way but it just "pauses". It's adequate though and was an OK purchase at the time. Even though my Core2QUAD computer has two HDD:s it usually starts a small installation of Logos only a couple of seconds slower than Surface 3 in the benchmark, and a big installation with Verbum 5 only takes about eleven more seconds to start. When it's up the workflow is OK. If I would update it to Logos 6 and Verbum 6 (the current version) and add RAM (beyond the 4GB it came with) it would become faster in continuous use as the recent versions of the Bible Study software caches books that have been opened during the session, to RAM, so re-opening book without having closed the app or quit Windows meanwhile, speeds up. It has Windows 8.1 and Bitdefender antivirus. EDIT2: Opening a (big) book is as slow as on Surface 3. There's not much perceived difference as the impact on productivity and effectiveness is slim indeed between 1 or 1½ seconds for opening a book, 2 seconds is too long though. Faster than a second would be a better experience but can't be expected in 2015 at these price levels.
EDIT2: if wanting so speed up Surface 3 but not wanting all the latest functionality of Logos/Verbum, an option is to install the Logos 5 or Verbum 5 core engine to use the software as it consumes less RAM and is faster initially, but in continuous use version 6 is faster as version 5 doesn't cache books in RAM - Windows does cache some of the software files in RAM though. Eventually version 6 or forthcoming 7 will become slightly more optimized, they are working on improving the speed but the progress is slow and it might use more and more RAM.

EDIT2: 1,200 SEK = $145. 1,500 SEK = $181. According to currency exchange rate May 9. 2015.

EDIT2: see also these threads about commentaries:
1. The Catholic and Anglican...
I have NIV, GNT, KJV, ESV,...
EDIT Sept. 19. 2014: see also... ... or some other post in that thread if You are interested in commentaries.

Thanks again MrJim! I thought this thread would be useful:
Good idea for a thread~~~I'm prejudiced towards AMD and will only buy Intel processors, but the key word here is prejudice.
Previously edited by Unix; 6th May 2015 at 1:23 AM local time. Reason: typo, plus additional review
 
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Unix

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The best Mac solution seems to currently be software related: OS X 10.11 El Capitan has the same requirements (will run on the same machines as) 10.10 Yosemite. For access right now, an Apple Unified Developed Membership which costs $99 for one year, is needed, with that there has been access to 10.11 since June 8. 2015, public beta coming soon and stable in the Autumn. I'm considering to take this now withing two Weeks - the main benefit is performance boost! 10.10 is CPU intensive and/or benefits from a modern CPU, and it and 10.11 need a bit of RAM: 4 GB should be minimum: with that You can run Accordance. To run Logos 5 or Verbum 5 You should have 6 GB or 8 GB. To run Logos 6 or Verbum 6 You should have 8 GB or preferably 16 GB, for Noet You need 8 GB (these will occasionally use even more during indexing and/or when the software is buggy (applies especially to current Logos and Verbum versions)). This is under OS X. OliveTree is developing an OS X version.
EDIT June 19. 1:40 AM local time: See http://www.accordancebible.com/foru...s-of-accordance-11-scrivener-2-and-word-2011/ ... about performance in Accordance 11 under OS X 10.11 El Capitan, a user has tested!
 
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Unix

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These circumstances and developments:
  • The growth of my library,
  • realizing that if I date a girl she doesn't want me to be overloaded with too many extra pounds to carry in my rucksack (a girl should usually accept that I carry a laptop since being aware of that I research, a thin 17.3" laptop requires a bigger rucksack which is an excuse for a big enough rucksack without the computer taking most of the space),
  • the development of the Bible Study software in which I have most of my books having caused that it needs A LOT more RAM nowadays than in the Logos 5 (L5 -days), and AT LEAST twice as much CPU than back then for some of the functionality added since then and for the software to start fast enough and open layouts (what tabs You have open - it can start to the same location which may be better than trying to remember by heart what are the tools and books You usually need to have open),
  • that I'm getting started soon to do real research,
  • that I have an increased need to sometimes keep multiple Bible Study softwares open simultaneously,
  • that I can't work efficiently and with an overview when wanting to post my research here on CF if I don't have enough monitor real-estate,
  • and that I most and foremost need a computer when being on town in the city-area or using long-distance trains to go to another city, less so now at home since I'm somewhat satisfied with my desktop computer and now since recently have a pass to get to the nearby library which is open Mo-Th until 9 PM and Weekends until 6 PM with the pass and I've joined a gym or a Year, which is also here, and both of these being within 100-250 meters from my home,
  • that I need to steer from using email a lot and chatting more to also produce my things for which I need a good computer,
... cause that I now really need a modern quad-core AMD CPU (softwares will after 2 Years from now utilize all the new technology of CPU and RAM), either user-replacable battery or good battery life or both, and definitely more than the traditional 1366 x 768 pixels of low-budget laptops, if feasible 17.3".
I started out modestly, see: Why you should not buy Apple computers ... I still have it and bring up that laptop in discussions, 1.65 GHz.

For around 4,000:- Swedish Krona You don't get really good value for money, so that would be the budget-price range. An example: Toshiba Satellite L50D-C-188 - elgreen
Toshiba Satellite L50D-C-188 reconditioned
  • Windows 10 64-bit (upgraded by store from 8.1)
  • AMD Quad-Core A8-7410 (2.2 GHz, up to 2.5 GHz, 2 MB L2 cache)
  • Intel® HD Graphics R5 M330 with AMD Enduro™-technology, 2 GB reserved VRAM
  • DDR3 6 GB (upgradable to 16 GB)
  • 1TB SSHD: 8 GB cache-part
  • 38 cm (15.6") (1 366 x 768 pixels)
  • 2 kg
  • 2 USB 3.0 ports
  • Price 3,879:- Swedish Krona with delivery
... the processor would be twice as slow for most of the demanding tasks, than in the Asus laptop I had and the 17.3" laptop I talk about in the below link. But the difference in price is also double (the difference was less to the Asus I had, it cost 6,000 Swedish Krona on Oct. 30. 2015). Also difference in amount of monitor pixels. Even with better monitor and graphics the better laptops than this one would have better battery-life in power-save mode because of the possibility to set the % very low how much of the clock frequency is to be used.

My alternative to buying a laptop that will fill my needs and preferably last a very long time, would be to save up during a long time for an HP ProBook with AMD A12 CPU, 16 GB DDR3L-RAM, 512 GB M.2 SATA TLC SSD partitioned to dual boot, but I have to say it would take a long time, those retail 11,500 Swedish Krona, upgraded, 1½ Years from now, and would more or less last a lifetime. EDIT: This is what I'm leaning to, i.e. save up to that, use slow and very heavy laptop meanwhile.

SEE THIS COMMENT I made yesterday at a Bible Study software forum: "You must be connected to the internet for this to succeed..." - Logos Bible Software Forums ... particularly the HP Notebook 17 and the HP Pavilion 15. Please comment on which option to go for particularly if the price-difference is worth it or whether saving up for an HP ProBook is the way to go and having to use the Win 7 Professional computer meanwhile (which is thick and weighs a lot because of battery/batteries - it can even have dual batteries attached although the second battery would cost)! If You're cautious about what You are doing there in the first place, please register for free on there and comment over there also!

The biggest Bible Study software requires:
CPU, also multitasking a lot of the time, even if only having one software open and nothing else
RAM
Disk, both speed and space. If a computer should ship with 256 GB SSD nothing but the biggest Bible Study softwares and the OS should be installed on it. A second drive for the rest. Considering that, a hybrid drive (SSHD) is more budget-friendly and in my experience works
 
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