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Who claimed that "nothing... can suddenly BANG! and produce things?" That's a Straw Man of Big Bang cosmology, and I don't think anyone in this thread has argued for such a proposition.
And still no evidence. Could you please provide some evidence that invisible qualities observed in things point to God. Thank you.
No, he didn't. Hawking developed a model of the universe which is self-existent and which yet has a past-finite history. What Hawking showed is that it is not inconsistent to hold that there may have been an ordinally first moment of time in a universe which has never been non-existent.
Well, if you've heard people argue such things, I'd be right there with you in disagreement, because that proposition makes absolutely no sense. However, as I mentioned, no one in this thread seems to be supporting such a claim.That is the usual atheist position which I hear in such arguments. There was nothing and then suddenly there was protozoan or amoebic lifeforms which evolved into life.
I'm wondering: how does one "verify" a miracle? In what way can an event be confirmed to be a miracle as opposed to a rare natural event?I'm just curious to see how you explain miracles. I'm not talking about the bogus TV evangelist fraudulent type. I'm talking about verifiable miracles seen by witnesses and validated by medical authorities as genuine.
Is the sickness in brain more insulting one, than sickness in a leg? Just fact:
Trying to teach a fool is like gluing a broken pot back together, like waking someone out of a deep sleep. Explaining something to a fool is like explaining it to a sleepy person; when you have finished, he’ll say, What was that again? We mourn for the dead because they have no access to light. We ought to mourn for fools, because they have no access to intelligence. In fact, we should go into deeper mourning for fools, because the life they lead is worse than death. The dead are at least at rest. For seven days we mourn the dead, but a foolish or ungodly person causes a lifetime of grief. Don’t visit stupid people or spend a lot of time talking with them. Avoid them; then they can’t contaminate you, and you can live in peace without being troubled or worn down by their foolishness. Such people are a heavier burden to bear than lead; and the only word that fits them is fools. It is easier to carry a load of sand, salt, and iron than to put up with a stupid person. (Sirach 22 GNT).
I'm just curious to see how you explain miracles. I'm not talking about the bogus TV evangelist fraudulent type. I'm talking about verifiable miracles seen by witnesses and validated by medical authorities as genuine.
Well, if you've heard people argue such things, I'd be right there with you in disagreement, because that proposition makes absolutely no sense. However, as I mentioned, no one in this thread seems to be supporting such a claim.
I'm wondering: how does one "verify" a miracle? In what way can an event be confirmed to be a miracle as opposed to a rare natural event?
Not unless you suppose God to be something wholly physical, something both spatial and temporal. It actually sounds nothing like the Classical Theological position on God, except for the fact that it is self-existent.Well, if it is self-existent, that sounds very much like God.
In what way does this verify the intercession of a supernatural being? How do you eliminate the possibility that the timing of the prayer was simply coincidental?I guess I would respond by saying that the illness (assuming a miracle of physical healing) has been treated by doctors, has been unable to be successfully cured using a number of methodologies, and then responds within a short time to specific prayer.
Whenever I am given specific examples, I certainly take time to look into them. I haven't ever been offered any examples of "empty eye sockets being filled," so I would find that fascinating, if you have one to hand.Have you researched some of the more astounding miracles which are out there on the Internet? Things like empty eye sockets being filled and the blind seeing? Stuff that is just amazing and appears to be something beyond simply a "rare natural event."
Which miracles are you referring to?
And how do you go about, objectively verifying a miracle?
Emile Zola was the self-proclaimed father of French naturalism (in literature). During the research for his novel, Lourdes, 1894, he visited the famous shrine. While there he had a chance to meet Marie Lebranchu (Miracle #16, 1892), both before her cure—she had tuberculosis in a very advanced stage, and Zola saw her coughing up blood on the train going to Lourdes—and after, at the Medical Bureau of Verifications. In his novel he altered the facts. Having depicted Marie Lebranchu as a hopelessly ill person, using the name of La Grivotte, he attributes her improvement to nervous excitement, and makes her collapse and die on the way home! (She lived in perfect health until 1920.) Zola knew perfectly well that Marie Lebranchu had been healed, and when a doctor afterwards asked him why he had made the story conclude in a way that was opposed to actual facts, he replied in a tone of annoyance: “I suppose I am master of the persons in my own books, and can let them live or die as I choose? And besides,” he added, “I don’t believe in miracles. Even if all the sick in Lourdes were cured in one moment, I would not believe in them!” However, after witnessing several healings during his stay in Lourdes, he wasn’t inclined to dismiss the evidence for alleged miracles as fraudulent.
I only want to see a cut finger dipped in water and come out healed.
Émile Zola (before he witnessed the healing of Marie Lebranchu)
No, I do not, or, better, I cannot believe in the Lourdes miracles. What I have seen is amazing, grandiose and moving to the utmost degree, but ultimately explainable by the natural laws.
Émile Zola (after he witnessed the healing of Marie Lebranchu)
Not unless you suppose God to be something wholly physical, something both spatial and temporal. It actually sounds nothing like the Classical Theological position on God, except for the fact that it is self-existent.
In what way does this verify the intercession of a supernatural being? How do you eliminate the possibility that the timing of the prayer was simply coincidental?
Whenever I am given specific examples, I certainly take time to look into them. I haven't ever been offered any examples of "empty eye sockets being filled," so I would find that fascinating, if you have one to hand.
Not unless you suppose God to be something wholly physical, something both spatial and temporal. It actually sounds nothing like the Classical Theological position on God, except for the fact that it is self-existent.
In what way does this verify the intercession of a supernatural being? How do you eliminate the possibility that the timing of the prayer was simply coincidental?
Have you noticed that Genesis teaches:
That we live in a multiverse made up of at least 3 heavens or universes? Gen 1:8 and Gen 2:4
That the Big Bang of our Cosmos was on the 3rd Day of the Creation? Gen 2:4
That the First Stars did not put forth their light until the 4th Day. Gen 1:16 Science has recently learned that it was some 550 Million years AFTER the Big Bang before the first Stars lit up. This was announced in February 2015.
Answer those and I have a lot more which NO ancient man could have possibly known thousands of years BEFORE Science, and yet it's been in front of our noses for thousands of years now. It's empirical (testable) evidence of the Literal God. Amen?
That is a reasonable question for those who struggle with this. I would say in response that if you see the same thing happening over and over again, as in the case of Br. Andre Bessette, then the mathematical chances of timing of prayer coinciding with the natural healing become astronomically large. Does that make sense?
Are you saying that those prayed over by Br. Bessette always receive healing from their maladies? Or that they do, more often than not? Or that they simply receive healing a statistically significant portion of the time?That is a reasonable question for those who struggle with this. I would say in response that if you see the same thing happening over and over again, as in the case of Br. Andre Bessette, then the mathematical chances of timing of prayer coinciding with the natural healing become astronomically large. Does that make sense?
That is a reasonable question for those who struggle with this. I would say in response that if you see the same thing happening over and over again, as in the case of Br. Andre Bessette, then the mathematical chances of timing of prayer coinciding with the natural healing become astronomically large. Does that make sense?
... not so much in the old testament. God prefers the destruction method towards not only those with trouble believing, but those that worship incorrectly.You are not attracting anyone to Christ with such an attitude. Even God was gentle with those who had trouble believing.
It's on the right track. It's not so much that we don't know what laws might have been in effect. Rather, the mathematics which we use to describe the universe break down as we attempt to extrapolate backwards, beyond a certain point. When the math breaks down, we don't really know what's going on. It generally means that something in our model is either incorrect or lacking.
I'm just curious to see how you explain miracles. I'm not talking about the bogus TV evangelist fraudulent type. I'm talking about verifiable miracles seen by witnesses and validated by medical authorities as genuine.
You're just reading what you want into the bible. I can do the same thing with songs and stories about Santa Claus or Spiderman. It doesn't prove anything, besides the fact that some people have a wild imagination.
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