there was a reading of Deuteronomy today....

[brinny]

and this verse really stood out for me....i had to do a double take:

Deuteronomy 6:17

Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

what do testimonies mean here?

Thanks.

 

[from scratch]

There's something similar in Revelation often quoted by the SDA folks. Do they mean the same thing? I believe they insist they do. But I disagree with them. Context contributes lots of meaning. So how are you applying your verse? Is it to those to whom Moses was talking to or does it apply to Christians? Each would be a different set of commandments applicable to different groups of people.

 

[brinny]

for the sake of this thread, i'm focusing on "testimonies" and that it says "his testimonies"

the words "his testimonies" caught my attention....never really noticed that before.....this means "God's" testimonies, doesn't it?

 

[pehkay]

and this verse really stood out for me....i had to do a double take:

Deuteronomy 6:17

Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

what do testimonies mean here?

Thanks.

Since the Old Testament are types and figures of Christ, we can start from there:

Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers not only show that God's testimony is equal to His word and ordinances, but that the two tablets of stone, upon which the laws were inscribed, were called the tablets of testimony. The two tablets were placed in the ark, and it was called the ark of the testimony. God inscribed the law on two tablets of stone and called them the tablets of testimony. He also called the ark the ark of the testimony.

This shows us what a testimony is. A testimony is a law. It is God's heart, demand, or standard. The two tablets of testimony in Exodus are a good picture; they were set before men to show them God's standard.

What is God's standard? God's standard expresses God Himself; it shows the kind of God that He is. God's testimony is made for Himself; it manifests God's absolute standard.

When this testimony is manifested among men, it becomes the law. With God it is a testimony, and among men it is the law. It testifies to God's demand on His side, and it dictates to man what he should keep on his side. In God's hand it is the testimony, and in man's hand it is the law. In God's hand it is His demand, and in man's hand it is his duty. When it is put before man, it tells him what he ought to do; it also testifies of what man has done wrong and what the nature of God is. When this testimony is placed in man's hand, it testifies of his wrongdoings, showing how much he has come short of God's standard. When this testimony is in God's hand, it testifies of the kind of God that He is. A testimony is God opening His mouth to declare what He is in Himself.

In the New Testament, this thought is more obvious. The Lord Jesus came as a testimony to the Father, while the Holy Spirit came as a testimony to Christ. The church maintains the testimony of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. To testify Christ means to live Him out, express who He is and what He is. This is a testimony.

 

[brinny]

Since the Old Testament are types and figures of Christ, we can start from there:

Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers not only show that God's testimony is equal to His word and ordinances, but that the two tablets of stone, upon which the laws were inscribed, were called the tablets of testimony. The two tablets were placed in the ark, and it was called the ark of the testimony. God inscribed the law on two tablets of stone and called them the tablets of testimony. He also called the ark the ark of the testimony.

This shows us what a testimony is. A testimony is a law. It is God's heart, demand, or standard. The two tablets of testimony in Exodus are a good picture; they were set before men to show them God's standard.

What is God's standard? God's standard expresses God Himself; it shows the kind of God that He is. God's testimony is made for Himself; it manifests God's absolute standard.

When this testimony is manifested among men, it becomes the law. With God it is a testimony, and among men it is the law. It testifies to God's demand on His side, and it dictates to man what he should keep on his side. In God's hand it is the testimony, and in man's hand it is the law. In God's hand it is His demand, and in man's hand it is his duty. When it is put before man, it tells him what he ought to do; it also testifies of what man has done wrong and what the nature of God is. When this testimony is placed in man's hand, it testifies of his wrongdoings, showing how much he has come short of God's standard. When this testimony is in God's hand, it testifies of the kind of God that He is. A testimony is God opening His mouth to declare what He is in Himself.

In the New Testament, this thought is more obvious. The Lord Jesus came as a testimony to the Father, while the Holy Spirit came as a testimony to Christ. The church maintains the testimony of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. To testify Christ means to live Him out, express who He is and what He is. This is a testimony.

Does "testimonies" possibly refer to His prophets who testified of Him? Does it also refer to what the thousands of "witnesses" "witness" in heaven when they see a life completely surrendered to God? Is THAT a testimony? Does it speak even louder than words perhaps?

Does it possibly tie in to why David was called the "apple" of God's eye? What about David would please God to this degree that HE would call David this and David was called a "man after God's own heart"?

The bottom line of what i'm asking is, what pleases God to the degree that He would rejoice over someone with singing? Would a "testimony"? And is there such a thing as a testimony of the heart?

 

[childofdust]

and this verse really stood out for me....i had to do a double take:

Deuteronomy 6:17

Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

what do testimonies mean here?

Thanks.

It is synonymous with the other two words used there: "commandments" and "statutes." Most translations render the Hebrew word "decrees" not "testimonies." (are you using an out-of-date translation?)

"His decrees" is used in apposition to the phrase "his covenant" in Psalm 25:10 (meaning "his covenant" = "his decrees"). In other words, it relates directly to the covenant commandments.

That word is used to describe the tablet on which the 10 commandments were written:

"When God finished speaking with Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant (literally "of the decree"), tablets of stone, written with the finger of God."
--NRSV, parentheses added

 

[brinny]

LOL! i read from the KJV.....and in it all three words were used, which indicates three separate meanings....what most caught my interest is that it's written as "his testimonies"....and this would mean God's testimonies, right? and "testimonies" is in the plural....that's just reeeeeally intriguing to me....

 

[pehkay]

Does "testimonies" possibly refer to His prophets who testified of Him? Does it also refer to what the thousands of "witnesses" "witness" in heaven when they see a life completely surrendered to God? Is THAT a testimony? Does it speak even louder than words perhaps?

Does it possibly tie in to why David was called the "apple" of God's eye? What about David would please God to this degree that HE would call David this and David was called a "man after God's own heart"?

The bottom line of what i'm asking is, what pleases God to the degree that He would rejoice over someone with singing? Would a "testimony"? And is there such a thing as a testimony of the heart?

Well, that will be a surface understanding of it. But we can go deeper. Try not to focus on the deed or action but the revelation of who God is.

When Christians today speak of the law, we mostly have a bad impression. [And our Adventist brothers are not making it any easier. ] Many when we say of a certain matter, “That is just the law!” It seems that the law is something bad. This is wrong.

To say that the law is simply the commandments from Moses is too common. In the ancient time God had Israel as His people. As a people, there was the need for regulation in their life and walk. If there is no law, there is no regulation for living. The law, therefore, is the regulation of the life of God’s people. This is the basic definition of the law.

Today, just as the people of Israel in the ancient time, the believers are the people of God, who need to be regulated. By what are we regulated? It is not by Moses but by God Himself. As the people of God, we must be regulated by God in our life, our walk, and our daily living. God must be our law.

Do not think that the law in the Scriptures is something bad. According to the proper understanding, the law is God Himself, or using the scriptural term, the law is the testimony of God. The testimony of God is the description of God. The purpose of the law is to testify, define, and describe God. As the people of God, our walk, living, conduct, and entire being must correspond to this very God.

What kind of God do we have, and what are His attributes? This is the purpose of the law. The law was given to tell us what kind of God we have. We may compare it to a document that describes a certain person, telling us his size, hair color, and other features. Such a document would be the testimony of this person. In the same way, the law is the description and definition of God, so it is His testimony. We as His people must be regulated in our walk and living by this description, this testimony.

The law of the Old Testament was the law of letters outside of the people of God. On the one hand, the law testified and described God, but on the other hand, it also demanded the people to correspond to God’s attributes. As to God, it testified, but as to the people, it demanded and eventually condemned. If one was able to correspond to God’s law, the law was only a demand, but if one could not correspond with the demand, the law was a condemnation. This is the old law, the law in letter.

[New Testament] The new law is still the law; in this sense it is the same. The law in letter was the testimony of God, and the law in life is still the testimony of God. However, this same law is now not in letter but in life. The law within us today is the very living God. Christ as the reality of the law has come into us. He, as the living God who is holy, righteous, of love, and in light, who in the ancient times was described by the written law, has come into us as the new law [Rom 8:2]. Today God Himself is the law. We may prefer the old way of the law, because the new way is too bothersome. The old way is simply to write down all the commandments, and if we act according to them, we are all right. The new way, however, is a living Person.

There is no written commandment. Whatever we do, we must go to Him. We always need to contact Him and see His face. In the New Testament, the testimony of God is God being wrought, inscribed into us as the One who is living and working within us. How much God is wrought into us as our life and supply, is how much we become the testimony of God. As more God as life grows in you, spontaneously He is expressed out of you as the testimony of God.

Hope this helps a bit. P.S. Re: example of the document ... since Christ came, why do we still cling to the document describing a person than the real person Himself

 

[granpa]

and this verse really stood out for me....i had to do a double take:

Deuteronomy 6:17

Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

what do testimonies mean here?

Thanks.

it's from the same word that means witness as in the two witnesses.
The 2 rhodim.

Hebrew Lexicon :: H5713 (KJV)

 

[Keachian]

LOL! i read from the KJV.....and in it all three words were used, which indicates three separate meanings....what most caught my interest is that it's written as "his testimonies"....and this would mean God's testimonies, right? and "testimonies" is in the plural....that's just reeeeeally intriguing to me....

That would misunderstand Hebrew Parallelism, if there's one tool that is extremely useful in Biblical study or enjoyment is Hebrew Parallelism, I will bow to the Hebraicist in the thread to explain if he wishes to as he would do a far better job, but the general gist is that the use of synonymous words in close conjunction stresses the importance of something.

 

[brinny]

Well, that will be a surface understanding of it. But we can go deeper. Try not to focus on the deed or action but the revelation of who God is.

When Christians today speak of the law, we mostly have a bad impression. [And our Adventist brothers are not making it any easier. ] Many when we say of a certain matter, “That is just the law!” It seems that the law is something bad. This is wrong.

To say that the law is simply the commandments from Moses is too common. In the ancient time God had Israel as His people. As a people, there was the need for regulation in their life and walk. If there is no law, there is no regulation for living. The law, therefore, is the regulation of the life of God’s people. This is the basic definition of the law.

Today, just as the people of Israel in the ancient time, the believers are the people of God, who need to be regulated. By what are we regulated? It is not by Moses but by God Himself. As the people of God, we must be regulated by God in our life, our walk, and our daily living. God must be our law.

Do not think that the law in the Scriptures is something bad. According to the proper understanding, the law is God Himself, or using the scriptural term, the law is the testimony of God. The testimony of God is the description of God. The purpose of the law is to testify, define, and describe God. As the people of God, our walk, living, conduct, and entire being must correspond to this very God.

What kind of God do we have, and what are His attributes? This is the purpose of the law. The law was given to tell us what kind of God we have. We may compare it to a document that describes a certain person, telling us his size, hair color, and other features. Such a document would be the testimony of this person. In the same way, the law is the description and definition of God, so it is His testimony. We as His people must be regulated in our walk and living by this description, this testimony.

The law of the Old Testament was the law of letters outside of the people of God. On the one hand, the law testified and described God, but on the other hand, it also demanded the people to correspond to God’s attributes. As to God, it testified, but as to the people, it demanded and eventually condemned. If one was able to correspond to God’s law, the law was only a demand, but if one could not correspond with the demand, the law was a condemnation. This is the old law, the law in letter.

[New Testament] The new law is still the law; in this sense it is the same. The law in letter was the testimony of God, and the law in life is still the testimony of God. However, this same law is now not in letter but in life. The law within us today is the very living God. Christ as the reality of the law has come into us. He, as the living God who is holy, righteous, of love, and in light, who in the ancient times was described by the written law, has come into us as the new law [Rom 8:2]. Today God Himself is the law. We may prefer the old way of the law, because the new way is too bothersome. The old way is simply to write down all the commandments, and if we act according to them, we are all right. The new way, however, is a living Person.

There is no written commandment. Whatever we do, we must go to Him. We always need to contact Him and see His face. In the New Testament, the testimony of God is God being wrought, inscribed into us as the One who is living and working within us. How much God is wrought into us as our life and supply, is how much we become the testimony of God. As more God as life grows in you, spontaneously He is expressed out of you as the testimony of God.

Hope this helps a bit. P.S. Re: example of the document ... since Christ came, why do we still cling to the document describing a person than the real person Himself

what is interesting is that Jesus says that when we love God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength and love our neighbor, but especially our brothers in Christ, this fulfills the law.....i was listening to a Bible study about Isaiah 57 and 58, but Isaiah 58 in particular....the people were "keeping" His ordinances, etc., yet their heart was not in it and they "prayed" and cried out to God only to be heard of men and in their heart was wickedness, and dissention and deceit. In Chapter 58, God spells out what a "fast" is to Him. See verses starting with verse 5 in Isaiah 58.

God, from the beginning, has looked into the very hearts of men. He continues to do so.

My question is, is it in the "heart" that a testimony, testifying to WHO God is, and testifying to His glory, and ALL He has done, generates from?

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
and this verse really stood out for me....i had to do a double take:

Deuteronomy 6:17

Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

what do testimonies mean here?

Thanks.

it's from the same word that means witness as in the two witnesses.
The 2 rodim.

Hebrew Lexicon :: H5713 (KJV)

I think you hit on something there.....what also comes to mind is the verse about the "cloud of witnesses" although i can't remember which verse it is....

 

[Keachian]

I think you hit on something there.....what also comes to mind is the verse about the "cloud of witnesses" although i can't remember which verse it is....

You're thinking of Heb 12:1-3

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
LOL! i read from the KJV.....and in it all three words were used, which indicates three separate meanings....what most caught my interest is that it's written as "his testimonies"....and this would mean God's testimonies, right? and "testimonies" is in the plural....that's just reeeeeally intriguing to me....

That would misunderstand Hebrew Parallelism, if there's one tool that is extremely useful in Biblical study or enjoyment is Hebrew Parallelism, I will bow to the Hebraicist in the thread to explain if he wishes to as he would do a far better job, but the general gist is that the use of synonymous words in close conjunction stresses the importance of something.

i s'pose that's possible, the question is, what important thing is being stressed here, since three are mention? (Just askin' cuz i'm curious)

Getting back to the word i'm stressing, "testimonies" in the plural, would you care to share some insights on what is meant? It appears to be saying "God's testimonies". My thoughts are that these "testimonies" would be a testifying kind of thing. Interesting now that "witnesses" were mentioned, how both words remind me of a "court" setting, for "witnesses" actually "testify", do they not?

 

[granpa]

I think you hit on something there.....what also comes to mind is the verse about the "cloud of witnesses" although i can't remember which verse it is....

A nephele of witnesses

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

That would misunderstand Hebrew Parallelism, if there's one tool that is extremely useful in Biblical study or enjoyment is Hebrew Parallelism, I will bow to the Hebraicist in the thread to explain if he wishes to as he would do a far better job, but the general gist is that the use of synonymous words in close conjunction stresses the importance of something.

This^

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by Keachian View Post
That would misunderstand Hebrew Parallelism, if there's one tool that is extremely useful in Biblical study or enjoyment is Hebrew Parallelism, I will bow to the Hebraicist in the thread to explain if he wishes to as he would do a far better job, but the general gist is that the use of synonymous words in close conjunction stresses the importance of something.

This^

would you care to elaborate and/or offer any thoughts.....especially on the word "testimonies" and that they are "God's testimonies"?

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
I think you hit on something there.....what also comes to mind is the verse about the "cloud of witnesses" although i can't remember which verse it is....

A nephele of witnesses

Thanks! Interesting how cloud(s) are used throughout God's Word and the HUGE meaning to clouds and to "witnesses" which are associated with the clouds....

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

would you care to elaborate and/or offer any thoughts.....especially on the word "testimonies" and that they are "God's testimonies"?

Along with the above poster, I think statues, testimonies, and commands are all parallel statements used as a means of rhetorical heightening, very common in Hebrew.

Beyond that, I'd say that testimonies colors the whole by tending toward a more story-focused way of viewing statues (a legal view) and commands (a royalist view). Thus together we have the story of the giving of the law, a legal view of that story, and a God-as-king way of seeing covenant history. In other words, the coloring of all three means what we have here is a reference to Torah. Keep the Torah, now just the laws of the Torah, but live in conformity to the covenant history to the Torah, and base your identity on it. That's the point: the point of Judaism from the writing of Deuteronomy and the composition of the Torah in the sixth century BC until today.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
would you care to elaborate and/or offer any thoughts.....especially on the word "testimonies" and that they are "God's testimonies"?

Along with the above poster, I think statues, testimonies, and commands are all parallel statements used as a means of rhetorical heightening, very common in Hebrew.

Beyond that, I'd say that testimonies colors the whole by tending toward a more story-focused way of viewing statues (a legal view) and commands (a royalist view). Thus together we have the story of the giving of the law, a legal view of that story, and a God-as-king way of seeing covenant history. In other words, the coloring of all three means what we have here is a reference to Torah. Keep the Torah, now just the laws of the Torah, but live in conformity to the covenant history to the Torah, and base your identity on it. That's the point: the point of Judaism from the writing of Deuteronomy and the composition of the Torah in the sixth century BC until today.

What is God seeking in all of the above? Does He say?