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Be sure to be there with my next thread with the proof of God and his Oneness through the Divine beautiful Names.
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Well, at least you've thought about it.
Yes.So uncaused cause not subject to time space and matter, causes space time and matter?
Ok So we agree, I just disagree that it's possible a mindless eternal beginingless and endless thing can start time and cause change, and cause space, etc...so I conclude a Concious Creator did it.
However, we have come to the agreement of the conclusion. We are not only discussing the nature of the Uncaused Cause and to me it's evident it's not some sort of super brainless reality that starts time and causes time and space, and motion and energy but rather a conscious Creator that began it and maintains it.
Yes.
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I dont think there's a rational argument that the universe needs a cause. It comes down to our own personal intuition.
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I have no problem when someone tells me that it just seems/feels that a creator is necessary.
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BUT... I am wary of our "feelings" on the matter, as our intuition may be shaped by our position embedded within the spatial/temporal/material world.
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(Good discussion, by the way.)
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I never knew it had a special name.I tutored on the Kalam cosmological argument once. Good for getting people's brains going.
I never knew it had a special name.
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Does my refutation make sense?
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Sure:I haven't really been following the thread. Can you summarise it?
But its entirely reasonable to suggest we might have no access now to the rules of how universes work.Works fine, Durang, so long as you're aware that you're just defining the universe the same way theists define God: "That which breaks the rules."
If God was able to come from nothing
But, logically, if there were ever a time in which the universe would contain that which wasn't an effect, it would be the first instant of time.
eudaimonia,
Mark
Good try, but not true. If the start is moving, it is always in existence. For all of time, it exists. It doesn't just appear out of nothing. It is precisely First Existence.
Islam like Christianity are all bluff and smoke, they have no substance whatsoever.
And if time is not relevant, then neither is cause. Who knows?
If the Universe was created by a singularity called the Big Bang, then we were created by chance rendering us meaningless. But, if we were made by a divine omnipotent being, then all of a sudden we are meaningful.
Are you positive with complete metaphysical certitude that humans could not have lied about God.
Allow me to refer you to post #88 (double infinity!) for a complete summary of my argument here.Time is relevant. This is provable. This does not dismiss cause, and all davein vain's post about infinity proves is it makes no sense to us so our math can't handle it.
If time doesn't apply to God, God can't act, because to act is to change -to change from not having acted to having acted.
(AND a related aside: Ask any believer in God... they all believe in an eternal/uncaused existence or realm or God. So the idea of an eternal/uncaused universe should NOT be too far out for them.)
My concept of God? I dont believe I proposed one. I just looked at a single specific aspect: uncaused.Yes this works, Zoot's comment about it is correct, it also agrees w/ a statement made by Eudaimonist some time back that I informed him He just defined G-d.
Now, I ask you to compare your concept here to say, the Monty Python-esque old guy with a long robe that just wants to make sure you never have any fun.
No comparison, right? This is the sad distortion the church has created, much like a cartoonist having a rabbit say "what's up Doc?" Except only one of these is funny.
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